Ye but the "sheriff" went there from the first second.
Yiiiihaaaa!!!
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Ye but the "sheriff" went there from the first second.
Yiiiihaaaa!!!
Agreed...if it was easy, or even doable, it would have happened already. Just my opinion, the Palestinians got a raw deal seventy some years ago and have been treated badly ever since. That same thing has happened to indigenous populations throughout time. What is going on now doesn't compare to say, the American Indians, but the concept is the same. They will be relegated to hardly a society.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
But I'm not oblivious to the other side of the issue. I guess that's what makes it hard to come together.
I agree and I've been defending that position for years. I do feel the need to add, though, that nothing the State of Israel ever did justified the acts that Hamas carried out last week. Equally, those acts do not justify the indiscriminate actions Israel has carried out in response.Quote:
the Palestinians got a raw deal seventy some years ago and have been treated badly ever since
Something that I see missing from a lot of the media coverage over the last week: It's possible to condemn the actions of both Hamas and the Israeli state without invalidating the suffering of either the Israeli or Palestinian people.
That's why I backed away.Quote:
It's easier for people to comprehend binary options. The discussion can only ever be good vs evil, there cannot be any nuance.
Who is good and who is evil? If you look waaaayyy behind the lines, we must know why the first attack started and by whom and I don't mean Hamas.
There was instant worldwide commendation of the supposed Israeli's strike on a hospital. From all the evidence I've seen it was an errant Hamas rocket. But the misinformation the Israel did it is already out.
There is a lot of misinformation from both sides. I think it is going to get worse before it gets better, and I don't know what "better" looks like.
It was A rocket. We don't know from where.
Who is "We"? Just look at the evidence, the film of the take off and trajectory, the chatter from Hamas mentioning the launch failure, the damage done by the remaining fuel burning. It was not "A" rocket, it was a Hamas rocket that failed during launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
Your probably right but all that evidence can be faked. Considering the carnage that Israel's bombing has already caused, you can understand the skepticism. Who ever is responsible, I don't think it was done on purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
I agree evidence can be faked and keeping that in mind you also have to consider the source. I'll take the US military assessment of what happened over Hamas claims. I also agree given what Israel has done and is about to do there can be skepticism. I think in this particular case there is no doubt in my mind it was a failed launch.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
So, USA issued a worldwide caution alert on travels.
Apparently there is no safe place on earth for Americans but their own, that is still not a safe place....Or you government is doing what our government is doing aka being idiots.
So, no Bora Bora islands vacations this year? :cry:
We usually got car jacks in Athens if the criminals wants the car for a robbery or something. We don't have much of random carjacks in the city.
I usually park at my house and walk or use transportation but that is because we have HUGE parking problems and not just in the city.
Some places is literally impossible to park and if you find a spot you get out of your car, honk to some known tune and the neighbors come out to their balconies and throw flowers at you cheering.
The tune is Never Gonna Give You Up, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
It might. I don't like it but it just might...
I think if Israel just keep bombing the hell out of Gaza they're going to continue to loose support. I'm surprised they haven't started a ground offensive. Seems like there would be a lot less civilian casualties.
I agree and I think it's already happening. The rhetoric has changed drastically over the last couple of weeks.Quote:
I think if Israel just keep bombing the hell out of Gaza they're going to continue to loose support
My hunch is because it will either:-Quote:
I'm surprised they haven't started a ground offensive. Seems like there would be a lot less civilian casualties.
1. Kill massive numbers of civilians or
2. Have zero effect on Hamas
Hamas at this point will be thoroughly interspersed with the general populace and indistinguishable from them. To win this Israel's operation needs to be intelligence led. The usual MO for that is to win hearts and minds so that the general populace are willing to shop the terrorists but I suspect that ship has sailed for Israel. The alternative is to embed agents in Hamas to feed intelligence back but that's an incredibly lengthy and risky process.
If my understanding is correct the fuel is about to run out in Gaza and Israel is adamant about not letting any through. I'm hearing international doctors, and I mention that to try and lend some credibility to it, say that the hospitals are about to become morgues. Food and water are also running out. It feels like they kept them in a ghetto for years and now it is time to clean them out. That will be more bad press for Israel.
Yeah, I don't know how much longer Israel can continue their current tactics before even their supporters are forced to abandon them. That would really put Israel in a vulnerable position.
The current situation is terribly inhumane.
Yeah, I basically agree.Quote:
I don't agree with Obama very often, but he recently released this statement:
Essentially he is parroting the ever more important "Ron Paul moment" in 2008 when he describes to Guiliani what blowback is. Explaining that while the actions on one side are not justifiable but just painting a picture of how a group of people become compelled to engage in terrorist activities.
I think the real issue in this is that there is true discrimination going on in the middle east, something that the US and other first world countries simply cannot comprehend. There is serious propaganda from Israel that teaches people at a very young age to hate the Palestinians and there is equally serious propaganda from Palestine that teaches their young to hate the Israelis. Ultimately we will need reasonable people on both sides who can put aside their hatred to find peace. Unfortunately, neither Netanyahu and those in the Likud party nor Hamas have shown that they are willing to do this.
Their eye for an eye tactics really has left two groups of blind people. With the innocent paying the majority of price.
No good actors in charge of the PLA, either.
One reason that they might be holding off on the ground offensive is that they might not win by any measure. Right now, they are using bombs, which Hamas has no realistic means of countering even a little bit. With a ground offensive into an urban area, against an enemy that has clearly been planning for a very long time, it may be that there are a bunch of unpleasant surprises waiting in, under, and around the streets. I don't know if it is the case, but it seem reasonable to expect that Hamas assumed a ground offensive would follow after their attack. They may have planned for that, and may even be counting on it. After all, drone warfare is becoming very accessible.
Israel has the highly effective Iron Dome defensive system. That system takes out most rockets fired into Israel, and could take care of drones pretty effectively. Therefore, it is possible that Hamas was just trying to lure Israel into coming out from under the defense of Iron Dome by attacking into Gaza.
I think we're going to find out whether that conjecture is true or not.
One sentence of that is technically correct, but may not read right: I'm suggesting that Hamas may have staged their attack partly to lure Israel into attacking them.
If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza. Even then some would have fled to other countries. It's just a mess. Brings back memories of Vietnam. Actually the problem of knowing who is the enemy also reminds me of Afghanistan and Iraq.Quote:
Hamas at this point will be thoroughly interspersed with the general populace and indistinguishable from them
Reminds me of all those years in the office :pQuote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I suspect that that is the tragic truth. The war on terror was the best rallying call Islamic extremists ever had and this is probably going to replace that.Quote:
If this is true then Israel's goal of wiping out Hamas isn't possible without wiping out everyone in Gaza
I know the situations are wildly different but the only analogue I can speak to is the situation in Northern Ireland. That only came to an end (sort of) when reasonable leaders on both sides reached out to each other, brokered by a British Government who'd stepped away from the hard line rhetoric. (I say sort of because there are still divisions but they're not even close to what they were in the 70s and 80s). But I feel like the divisions in the Middle East run MUCH deeper and I'm not sure there are really any figure heads who would survive being seen to call for peace.
So the IDF bombed a refugee camp, killing some 80 civilians and justified it because they managed to kill one Hamas commander and it's not their fault that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. This is awful.
I did hear one commentator (James O'Brien) make a good point: If the Hamas commander had been hiding in a camp full of Israeli's would the IDF still have felt that killing 80 "human shields" was a justifiable side effect?
Yeah, this all feels horribly predictable at this point.
FOX news is starting up their dividing America narrative again. They split people during Covid and masking. They constantly do it between democrats and republicans. Their newest is pitting pro-Palestinian" protesters against Jews. That the protesters are actually pro Hamas. They are doing it on student campus protests and American cities. They are going to hurt someone this time.
This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
But like most news media, their main goal isn't to inform viewers with the facts, it's to grow their viewership.
When it comes to the Israel/Palestine problem my guess is VERY few Americans have much knowledge of how they got to this current situation. I don't have a clear picture, but I know it started long before Oct. 7th. So it makes it very easy for them to shape the story in a way that draws the most viewers.
Agreed...I've said that many times. This time it seems so egregious, so heartless :mad:Quote:
This time? Their mask and vaccine misinformation guests/reporting cost many lives.
There's no chamber like an echo chamber. That crap has long been debunked now.
I brought it up as another example of how lies and misinformation can be harmful, even leading to the lose of life. I was being civil but can't say that about you. Calling me a liar or delusional was way out of line. I'd also say you were calling several other members the same thing because I can tell from from their previous posts that they don't agree that masks and vaccines have been debunked, as Dil claims.Quote:
And that's where y'all lose me.
I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.
Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?
It was civil until you posted that tripe.Quote:
And that's where y'all lose me.
I will agree that FOX is trying to divide people by cherry picking some of the pro-Palestinian protests but anyone who still believes any of the crap that the corporate media put out on COVID is either a liar or just delusional.
Edit - I mean why even bring COVID up? Was the thread was too civil for you?
Ye I personally wouldn't say it that way, I would just said: The type of person that says: "Hmmm...the sign on the door says, "AIRLOCK". I wonder what's inside."
https://www.wfrp.de/hosted/flw/en/flw0250.html
Air...duh!
“Die, why that’s the last thing I’ll do”: Groucho Marx.
https://www.thehistorycorner.org/art...s-from-history
Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess. Not sure where these people have to go or how they will survive when they get there.
I understand Israel filling compelled to respond after Oct. 7th. Just don't see what "wiping out Hamas" will achieve, especially when so many innocents are killed during the process. Even if Israel destroys Hamas they've increased the anger against them from the Palestinians and others, it wont be long before another group step up to take the place of Hamas. so, the cycle continues.
It's a mess and I certainly don't have an answer to the problem. But I doubt destroying Hamas changes things for the better, in the long run.
If they don't have a viable plan for peace afterwards, Hamas will replace Hamas. A new generation will take up the same banner.
That's what I'm saying. I don't think "peace" is even a consideration in that region. There's been a few weak efforts in the last 50yrs but obviously to no effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
This might tell something about the world we live in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_...ition_only.svg
I didn't realize that but it makes sense. The US was the first to recognize Israel and will be the last to recognize the people thrown out to set up the new Israeli nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
I agree. There's a lot of argument over here at the moment over whether we should argue for a "humanitarian pause" or a "ceasefire". To me that's a distinction without meaning. Anything that stops the immediate killing and is a potential catalyst for talks is a win as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Well, a daily "pause" is something positive, I guess.
That said, while I think we may be able to apply diplomatic pressure sufficient to get Israel to pause, I'm extremely sceptical that we could affect Hamas's actions. Let's not forget they're still holding hostages and are still launching (ineffectual due to the iron dome) rockets.
Yeah, that was quite surprising. I've always thought that the UK recognised Palestine and we've long championed a two state solution. Hard to see how you can do that when you don't recognise one of the states.Quote:
This might tell something about the world we live in
The gray left or Russia and below Ukraine is "Transnistria"
That is the dream country of LGBT and friends ! :D
what the world needs is libertarianism, because wars and oppression are powered by fear, taxation, usury and artificial inflation.
I'm going to sound a cautious note of optimism. The hostage/prisoner exchanges seem to be going well and the ceasefire has held for several days now. I really hope this can grow into a more lasting peace. Israel is saying that they'll recommence after the hostages are all released but hopefully the wider community, particularly the USA (because you've got clout) can apply some soft diplomatic pressure to turn that around.
Maybe between global commendation and feeling like they got their "pound of flesh" Israel is pushing on the brake. Let's see what kind of hate grows out of that rubble.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
On the other side, if Israel puts a full stop on this, the internal outrage at government failures will grow louder. With a leader so keen on self preservation as Bibi is, I'm not sure that he sees peace as being in his best interest.
Maybe with other countries getting involved there is a very very slim chance of some type of peace. But I don't see it, this pause is happening because both sides feel they're benefitting. I don't see either side looking for peace.
Just to much deep and long occurring hate.
With a little political expediency mixed in for flavor.
I think you mean condemnation, not commendation. They're pretty much the exact opposite in this scenario.:pQuote:
global commendation
You're probably right but I hope you're wrong. Bibi is already facing a domestic backlash for the initial security failings and I get the impression that there's an increasing number of Israeli who are finding the response distasteful. I've seen quite a few interview including victims families where they express that it's starting to feel like revenge rather than a attempt to recover the hostages. I can see a path where he could spin an "I negotiated and recovered the hostages" line and save face that way.Quote:
On the other side, if Israel puts a full stop on this, the internal outrage at government failures will grow louder. With a leader so keen on self preservation as Bibi is, I'm not sure that he sees peace as being in his best interest.
He could save SOME face, but he's lost so much already, especially as reports that they ignored intelligence information about the pending attack are surfacing.
Well, the peace didn't last and we're back to exterminating Palestinians. I don't see an end to this.
I am wondering how long the world will stay on the side lines while Israel bombs the hell out of Gaza. Using the Hamas attack to justify killing innocents can't go on forever. It has went on to long already.
It looks like they are going into South Gaza soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Yeah, Israel is telling people in the south to evacuate but I'm not sure where they are suppose to go?
The app they've released seems really ridiculous to me. It basically pops up messages telling Palestinians where they're not going to be safe. What it doesn't do is tell them where they will be safe.
At this point Israel's actions have met the definition for Ethnic Cleansing. Whether they'll meet the definition for Genocide remains to be seen but it sure seems headed in that direction.
Nothing should be used to distract or dismiss the actions of Hamas but this isn't helping.
And FOX news is deliberately pitting sides against each other. To me the way they weaponize their coverage to pit Americans against Americans is the equivalent to yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
They've been doing that for years... even before TRump ... a couple decades at least... They've been doing it for so long, most people expect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
-tg
I'd say, not only expect it, it's what they want. That's how Fox News has grown to the most watched news network.Quote:
Originally Posted by techgnome
Being dedicated to Trump helps...Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt