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I certainly never thought disengaging would change anything but it does keep my frustration and disappointment levels much lower, I like that. I think being a US Sentator is completely different beast than being a local or even state representatives. It costs so much and people are indebted in so many ways that they can't put the needs of the people they represent first or even second. But they have to be willing to lie and say they will. Interesting career choice.
They will also have been in elected office for most of their lives by the time they reach the senate. That will make them different from the average voter anyways.
So I gather it all goes public this week and the fireworks have already started. I imagine this will really be the make or break stage. While things have been going on behind closed doors both sides will entrench but once things are public it will be a little harder (though far from impossible) for the public to double down on their prejudices. If Trump's actions really have been shady the public is more likely to turn against him. If not I imagine he gets a surge in support.
I'm starting to believe more and more that this impeachment hearing wont change anything for Trump supporters or non supporters. The country is solidly polarized and the people have already made their choice. I'm amazed at the hard line roll the media has chose. If you watch CNN you get one scenario and if you watch FOX you get a completely different scenario. It's incredible how far apart they are. It seems like there should only be one truth but I guess the truth is what ever you want it to be.
'truth' is usually the first casualty in any war.
There is another faction involved as well, Obama voters who jumped shipped because the Clinton candidacy was a bridge too far. Many voted Green just to avoid staying home and feeling powerless, but quite a few read the gameboard and decided Trump was a risk worth taking considering how few meaningful moves were available.
Most of them had no real expectation of Trump, but 3 years of anti-Trump shenanigans may have solidified their discontent with what the Democrats have come to be. Doubling down on shenanigans now may blow up in their faces. People who never imagined themselves as GOP voters might well be pushed over the line by this.
This is bad because though this is a narrow slice of all voters it may well be one of the few left in play with any degree of "independence."
Of course, the same could have been said of the anti-Obama Republicans in Congress who did everything they could to obstruct. And then there are those who voted for Trump, but then have been turned off by his actions. Independents are likely a pretty small slice in the US, anymore, but they have to be feeling pretty thoroughly repelled from all sides. When both sides are largely scored on how well they obstruct the other side, there isn't much of a center left, since they'd be defined by not obstructing.
This could likely be fixed by changing the way electoral maps are drawn, and possibly by changing primary rules. The former would work better, but would likely require a constitutional amendment. The latter is easier, but less effective.
If legislative districting was required to follow a pretty simple set of rules, gridlock would likely end:
1) All districts should have the same number of people plus or minus 0.1%.
2) All districts should be convex shapes except where a border of the district is a border of the state.
3) All district borders should not deviate from straight lines by more than 100 meters, and only such that lines do not bisect residential buildings.
Well said, but how sad for our country. Representing what's best for our country has dropped way down on their list of priorities.Quote:
When both sides are largely scored on how well they obstruct the other side
but that's today's low politics.
I still find it somewhat mind-blowing that Trump tweeted about Ambassador Yovanovitch while she was testifying. Crazy is as crazy does.....
^Yeah, that was the "fireworks" I was referring to. From the sound of things he (or his aids) has been doing the same thing to Vindman today using the Whitehouse Twitter account.
I'm surprised how little of this we're seeing over here. I expected the amount of news to jump up once the proceeding went public but it's still tumble weeds over here. I guess we've got enough news of our own at the moment:rolleyes:
What is the feelings or thoughts on all of this from outside of the US? (asking those that live outside the US).
One thing that has come through from listening to the testimony is that the Republicans and Democrats have two different narratives. They are approaching the testimony from two different realities with two different sets of facts that they accept to be true.
Without getting into which is more reasonable than the other, this is the bottom line issue in our world today: Truth is a matter of opinion. If you choose to believe that the world is flat, not only can you find LOADS of people who will support your view, but most people have no means to prove otherwise. If your view is consistent with only 0.1% of the US population, then you will have about 400,000 like minded people in the world. Until the last few decades, a view as rare as that would be hard pressed to encounter any of the hundreds of thousands of like minded folks. These days, it's as easy as getting ANY other source of information.
So, what does a person do? If you decide that you can't do the work to figure out something, then you can choose some group of experts to believe in. Of course, if you choose poorly, or if you believe the group of experts are deliberately misleading you, then choosing a group of experts does nothing at all for you.
For that reason, I believe that the result will be impeachment without removal, and that that's all that anybody is trying to achieve as far as impeachment goes.
George Orwell's 1984 depicts 'The Ministry Of Truth' (which enforces whatever the government decides is true that day) and the themes of using media manipulation and advanced technology to control people. Any parallels.......... ;)
Trump was universally despised outside the US before this process even started so we're going into it with a very strong anti-Trump bias. Personally, I know I have that bias so I try to find some objective reporting rather than spending my time in echo chambers but it's pretty difficult. Our TV media is pretty unbiased (our print media is massively bias but tends to wear it's bias on its sleeve) but they haven't been giving the proceedings much play. That said, the Sondland testimony dropped about 1/2 hour after I made that last post and that seems to have been a bit of a bombshell so it's getting coverage.Quote:
What is the feelings or thoughts on all of this from outside of the US?
Personally, I think he's absolutely guilty of coercing a foreign government using the threat of withholding US tax dollars for personal political gain. However, I don't think he viewed it in those terms and didn't see it as doing anything wrong. To him it was just business. He was getting things done and I don't think he bothered to think about it in any other way. And unfortunately he's surrounded himself with so many yes-men that nobody was going to question it and show him what it meant in the worst light. Still, creating and living in our own echo chambers seems to be the way of things these days so Trump's no worse than the rest of us in that regard.
Orwell got some things right, but mostly missed the boat. He thought it would be the government that was primarily manipulating the media. We now know that it doesn't take the government. Sure, the government CAN do it, but it doesn't take them, and is probably done more effectively by a smaller group.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaud
I've thought that for a long time but I also thought that maybe it was just my dislike for him that made me think that that way. To me it's actually embarrassing to watch him trying to act Presidential around dignitaries. He talks like an infomercial host.Quote:
Trump was universally despised outside the US before this process even started so we're going into it with a very strong anti-Trump bias
I agree but I also think it is still worth doing. I hate to think what Trump would do if Congress wasn't willing to call him out on illegal/inappropriate acts.Quote:
I believe that the result will be impeachment without removal, and that that's all that anybody is trying to achieve as far as impeachment goes.
The fact that voices on their left can hardly stop laughing at the neoliberal incompetence is telling though:
https://youtu.be/HsE3JMdxijg
I think what will do them in for 2020 will be historic low voter turnout. Their clown car primary campaign season hasn't helped a bit.
So up to now i have been fairly sure that the Impeachment proceeding were going nowhere... until Sondland's testimony yesterday.
Did it come across in the US the same as it came across here? because what i saw yesterday looked really bad for Trump from where i was sitting.
All his and the Republican parties defense of his actions got picked apart piece by piece.
What would have to happen for the Republicans to actually follow through with the Impeachment though would it need Giuliani to flip?
Your point aside, I really hope you don't take most of your views from comedians, and especially not Jimmy Dore. I mentioned him to a friend who is up to date on that stuff and oh boy is that guy a nutjob: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_DoreQuote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
It would probably require Trump to kill a kitten in a satanic ritual. Killing a person probably wouldn't be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
That's only half kidding, too. Impeachment is an inherently political act. For both parties to remove any president, it requires that sufficient numbers of both parties make the calculation that they are better off without that particular president. The Republicans have made the calculation that they are dead meat if they even criticize this president, so removing him is out of the question at this time. They are probably right in that. With the gerrymandering that has built most safe districts, Republicans are only really worried about being attacked from the right in the primary. Gerrymandering has happened for both sides, but Democrats are less easily attacked from the left, being a more amorphous position.
With Republicans, though, they've long had a fault line running through the center of their party, which makes them oddly susceptible to attacks from their right wing. The party is generally seen as the party of business...and social conservatives. These two positions don't overlap nearly as much as would be convenient. Some see the Republican party as being a party of fat-cats, and they certainly do have some, but the average Republican is not rich. In fact, I believe that they tend to be less well off than the average Democrat. I haven't seen any data on that, and it is pretty likely that the average independent (or non-affiliated) is financially better off than card-carrying members of either party. So, while the Republicans are seen as the party of business, they are not predominantly business. The business folks would prefer different policies from the social conservative folks. The two groups have different priorities.
Trump acts more like a classic Democrat when it comes to business and trade (protectionist, against free trade), but he stirs up the social conservatives like none other. It's a potent mix. Lots of Republicans in Congress probably loathe his positions (or else they've been lying for the last couple decades when it comes to their trade views), but if they oppose him, the social conservative branch, which outnumbers the business branch, will thrash them in the primary.
So, the Republicans won't oppose him unless he were to do something so appalling to the social conservative wing of their party that they stop supporting him. What he does in Ukraine...doesn't even register.
The other shoe:
https://youtu.be/rYwe_K9Dxio
Pretend Trump is a Democrat...they would be all over that!Quote:
What would have to happen for the Republicans to actually follow through with the Impeachment?
Remember, Trump has spent more time as a democrat than as a republican......Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Never as an elected democrat...They wouldn't have him.Quote:
Originally Posted by brad jones
The hits just keep coming:
https://youtu.be/h2h_vSn8Ktg
No wonder neoliberals have so little use for Jimmy Dore these days.
This is what I hate about all these youtube channels: they tailor to their demographic to tell them what they want to hear. Not saying Dore is wrong, as I watched the thing live and agree that lawyer made a better case than the others.
However, he doesn't even show the other lawyers or any of the points they made; Dore is simply driving home the narrative he chose without showing opposing views.
It is funny how often people post videos like these that don't even discuss the opposing side of view -- that is the biggest problem in all of this, neither side is willing to actually listen and admit both sides may have a point, or even contrast their points. It is simply videos with the title "DESTROYS" or other similarly ridiculous titles for clickbait, pandering to their target demographic so people can say "see! I was right!".
You can easily find videos as well from David Pakman or Sam Seder I'm sure, that state the complete opposite result.
You could have saved yourself time and just got his talking points off of Faux News...Quote:
I watched the thing live and agree that lawyer made a better case than the others.
But that is the exact opposite point I was making... Why trade one biased source for another? I watched the whole thing so I could make my own opinion on what was discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
You missed my point...they are the same source. Republican picked talking points. Turley was the trained parrot. His views were the opposite when it was Clinton.Quote:
Originally Posted by kfcSmitty
There's your problem, right there. It's a mistake to assume that the purpose of this is to inform. It's purpose is to make you click... or repost.Quote:
...clickbait...
Incidentally, it's also a mistake to think this is about pandering to their adopted demographic. It's just as much (probably more) about provoking contrary demographics. When you saw that that headline you already knew it was going to be bollocks but what did you do? Yeah, that's right, you clicked on it.
If I'm honest, the only reason I didn't is because I'm at a client site and there's no sound on this PC. And guess what I'm going to do when I get home this evening. I'm going to click on it. Because I just can't resist the feeling I'm going to get when I can sit back in consideration of my superiority over Dil because he clearly doesn't perceive his own bias.
I'll be completely missing the irony that I clearly don't perceive my own bias either but that won't matter...because I don't perceive it.
My point is that, by watching the live broadcast with the counter points, I am not only able to get the points he was told to talk about, I am also able to see the counter argument the other lawyers were making. Fox News would not have the opposing view. Whether the talking points Turley brought up were the same or not, I am able to get both sides of the argument and make my own mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
Just want to say I always like your posts... I don't think I've ever seen a post by you that has ever made me think you're anything more than the most calm person I've ever met.
Just remember, still waters run deep: You never know what evil lurks in the heart of Funky D.
I didn't listen to the law prof testimonies. That part seemed totally pointless, to me. The constitution leaves enough wiggle room when it comes to impeachment that you could drive anything through those loopholes. Impeachment is, and always will be, a political act. Even if the crime is both real and mundane, impeachment is political. After all, I really doubt that the people on either side in Congress would not be on the opposite side if the incumbent had a D rather than an R after their name.
Instead, I listened to the testimony of the witnesses. I was quite impressed with the competence of the ambassadors. I guess you'd expect them to be well spoken, but it was still impressive. I was also impressed with the spectacle put on by both parties. Having grown up in a legislative environment, I'm well aware that everybody was speaking for the camera. It's an act, and they should be evaluated as any other actor is evaluated. From that perspective, I found the Democrats more natural, because I felt that some of the Republicans were straining over their roles. Some weren't, especially that guy from Ohio, whose name I've currently forgotten (and won't bother looking up). I thought he was natural in his role, and took to it with great enthusiasm. Others seemed painfully aware that they were reading the script and didn't really own their character.
I'd say that a case could be made either way...and will be, but that's just a distraction. Impeachment is politics, and politicians do politics.
That's a little too broad for me...it can be used as a political tool. It is also a constitutional mechanism to keep a "check and balance" on a corrupt president.Quote:
Impeachment is politics
I seem to manage to be pretty calm on t'internet but in real life I'm afraid I'll throw a hissy fit and get all sweary at any device that doesn't work the way it should. In an increasingly detached and digital world that represents an ever growing body of provocation. The saga of my fight with the electronic catflap is legendary and my neighbours still look at me funny to this day. I've had to stop playing XCom games because I was a one man driver for a shortage of unsmashed keyboards in the Greater Bristol area.Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen a post by you that has ever made me think you're anything more than the most calm person I've ever met.
People are great. Things, on the other hand, should learn to do what they're ruddy well told.
DOH!
The moment Collins is finding out his stall tactics plan to have the articles of impeachment vote late at night fails :D
I wonder if any one has checked into getting Mexico to pay for the impeachment :eek:
They'd probably be happy to chip in
Well today is the day and unless there is an unexpected surprise Trump will be impeached today...I sit next to a staunch republican that supports Trump 100%. We help each other every day with the technical side, share stories about our families, even root for the same sports teams. When it comes to politics we do not discuss anything. We are a microcosm of the political divisiveness in our country. We are past even broaching the subject civilly.
His talking points are the same things you hear on Faux News and Breitbart and you can find mine on CNN and the "liberal lying press". I completely support the impeachment. I also think Trump is unfit to be president. I do not get any pleasure from what is about to happen.
So here comes phase II...the senate trial. It will be the flip of what just happened on the house side. This time the republicans have the majority and will be running the show. Democrats will complain about the process and republicans will dictate what happens.
I'm really not happy about this at all. I really wish Trump would have stayed under his rock and out of politics.
I think you meant "divisiveness":p. There's precious little decisiveness on either side of the pond lately:).Quote:
We are a microcosm of the political decisiveness in our country
I did...changed it. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
By impeaching, are the Democrats actually going to help Trump get re-elected? The Senate will find him not guilty - so he won't be removed from office and will fight the 2020 campaign for re-election. The polls haven't really shifted so those that despise him won't vote for him and those that love him will. It'll probably come down to the floating/un-deceided voters - and some of these may feel some sympathy for him and vote for him in 2020 thus ensuring he's re-elected. I'm harbouring a suspicion that the vote to impeach will backfire and that other tactics would have been better to try to remove him in the election.
That would be like having sympathy for the bubonic plague :pQuote:
and some of these may feel some sympathy for him and vote for him in 2020 thus ensuring he's re-elected
I agree it will come down to the independents. Red and blue are pretty well locked in. If the republicans would impeach him they could put their weight behind Pence and wash that orange stain off their hands and the fabric of this country.
Figuring out who will be helped and who will be hurt by this process is one of the more ubiquitous side-games in this event. It has been widely debated by pretty nearly everybody, and without any consensus. The last impeachment (Bill Clinton) clearly hurt the Republicans more, which suggests that this one could hurt the Democrats more, but there is no evidence that that is the case. In fact, it is kind of looking like it won't have all that much net impact in any direction. The population, as a whole, is slightly in favor, but so slightly in favor as to be within the error of the polls. Furthermore, the support is weighted towards the more populous states, which tend to be Democratic anyways. Therefore, it probably won't change a thing.
I'm glad the House chose to impeach for two reasons,
1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.
2) Anything that aggravates, complicates or basically makes this morally bankrupt man's life more miserable makes me happy. :):) Thinking about voting for him just to so he will have four more years of this.
Wonder where I can get a "Four more years" sign for my yard?????
For me, that's the important bit. Although it's not just about showing this president, it's about showing all future ones too. Bringing this impeachment might well back fire on the Democrats and hand Trump a martyr card to play at the next election. But failing to bring had the potential to have far worse ramifications at some point in the future. You may dislike Trump but you can pretty much guarantee that the future is, at some point, going to hold someone far worse.Quote:
1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.
I agree but...
Sadly the people that he has surrounded himself with let him do what he wants. It was a whistle blower that started all this. Just how much more is going on that we will never know about. He recently made a change limiting access to his meetings even more.Quote:
1) It shows the president that people are watching and will be held accountable for his actions.
I have been living with this shame for a while now...I switched to republican and voted for him in the primary. My intent at the time was to try and throw a wrench into the republican campaign by voting for the obvious idiot that couldn't win. Little did I know how many "people" there are out there that where going to vote him in.Quote:
2) Anything that aggravates, complicates or basically makes this morally bankrupt man's life more miserable makes me happy. :):) Thinking about voting for him just to so he will have four more years of this.
I really hope it is from the trash heap of history.Quote:
Wonder where I can get a "Four more years" sign for my yard?????
The world can always invent better idiots.
So I guess the step is a fair trial and a first class acquittal....
Nobody is fooled that this is anything but a partisan act. But it isn't even that simple. More worrying are the voices from the faux left clamoring to elevate Pence, and that speaks volumes about what is going on. It's a neoliberal establishment witch hunt attempting to beat back a rising populist mood in the country.
The parallels with what's going on in the UK, France, and a little more quietly elsewhere are obvious.
This is Pinochet, Reagan, Thatcher, the Clintons, Blair, Macron, and so on.
It was a partisan act because the republicans abrogated their constitutional duties of checks and balances years ago out of fear of the orange headed ogre "primarying" them. They would have happily impeached Obama, or any other democrat, if the tables were turned but under the same circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
I have never heard anybody on the left or the right suggest elevating Pence. The guy's useless to both sides. He's a hard-core evangelical with a spine of jelly, as his tenure as governor showed: He'd push through some strong, conservative, thing....then back down as soon as there was any opposition. The left doesn't want him because they're afraid he won't back down. The right doesn't want him because they know he will.
The Republicans are spineless on this impeachment. A few make good points, the bulk are making disingenuous points which are intended to mislead those who didn't listen to the testimony.
I sort of like this new strategy of holding the impeachment documents till the Senate outlines the trial rules. This may produce a more legitimate trial or maybe there wont be one because they're unable to reach an agreement. Then both sides can play the blame game until the 2020 elections. Oh hell what am I thinking, they'll be playing the blame game no matter what happens. Maybe Fox News and CNN have convinced the congress to draw this out as long as possible because their TV ratings are so high. lol
^That's my predictionQuote:
there wont be one because they're unable to reach an agreement. Then both sides can play the blame game until the 2020 elections.
What I have seen is people (mostly but not exclusively from the right) claiming that to impeach Trump is equivalent to elevating Pence as he would be the successor. There's a difference between equivalence and equality though. The purpose of impeaching Trump is not to elevate Pence, although that may be the outcome.Quote:
I have never heard anybody on the left or the right suggest elevating Pence
Has anything actually happened? From the little I've seen, it seems to be a good solution for insomnia.
No, nothing has happened, nor is it likely to. It isn't clear whether enough Republican senators can be convinced to vote for including witness testimony. Without that, there's no new anything about this. Both sides get to speak, but not a bit of it will be new.
Things might change a bit regarding witnesses now that excerpts of John Bolton's upcoming book leaked out. But at this point any group that is still denying climate change can ignore just about anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
This question/answers are such a SHAM! Each side is asking themselves questions to themselves to reinforce what they said already. No Challenging each others positions. Geez!
All i have to say is this: We impeached Clinton for Obstruction of Justice. Now we are impeaching Trump for Obstruction of Justice. THAT is a Quid Pro Quo.
Trump has already been impeached. It is in the past. Now we are trying him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell