Is it true that the devil really existed?

If you are firm in your belief in christianity that is fine by me, no problems, respect your rights.


....However.....


The question was "Does the Devil Exist". The answer is NO, never, mythological creature, creation made up from previous religons, does not exist, and never has.

There are exactly two mainstream religons who believe in Satan and possession.

1. The Catholic Church.

2. I believe the Jewish faith.

I have no knowledge of islam's belief in this....kovan come on down!


Now what church are you proposing as the saviour of mankind. No doubt one of those horrid American sects....in which case kindly explain to kovan why your church holds the belief that members of his faith will go to hell. This is the stated belief of Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, and other caring shring folk of that ilk.

So you are saying that the devil doesn't exist?

Jethro,

For what its worth your theological knowledge is a little shaky (like your VB then :D).

All mainstream Judaeo-Christian religions accept the concept of Satan. Its precise nature is a matter for debate.

As a Catholic, I can tell you that I do NOT believe that all other religions will go to hell, I am not even sure what hell is - possibly this thread on a Sunday evening!!!

A bit of reasoned debate is fine, but everyone seems to be making categorical assertions that are basically unprovable unless you include faith - an inherently unprovable contention.

So how about wrapping it up Guys?

P.

Jethro
your ignorant of islam :)
(hope that gets you going)
hehehe
seriously dude, i think you should LEARN about it
rather than make assumptions like you did before about how we treat the women ect

but back to serious stuff,

make that 3 maintream religions :)
as we believe satan exists as much if not more than christianity and jewdaism

kovan,

I was just pointing out the error of Jethro's ways. I did realise that Islam has the same concept of Satan. Really the question is: can evil be personified?

I would say no, not in the sense of a being with horns, tail etc, but in the same way I don't think God has a great big beard...

Lots of other religions have the same concept of personified evil (ghosts, spirits etc.), so I don't think we can limit it to 3 religions.

Anyway, I don't want to philosophise right now, so I don't think I'll post any more here - nobody is listening anyway.

Cheers,

P.

I'm going to discuss with Kovan on the new thread. However I want to address the issue of us forcing our beliefs on you. Show me where anybody has done that here. There is not one. First VBknight asked if the devil existed. we all stated our opinion and questions were asked. I explained my position alng with Kovan and others but at no point did anybody try and covert or preach to anybody in this thread. This just, to me, show a closed and biased opinion from the non believing. Just because you think you have all the answers doesn't mean you do. I don't go by any church doctrine or others beliefs unless they can be proven to me in the bible. My opinion has change through time because people have shown me errors ain my understanding and pointed out scriptures that have created new beliefs for me. I have listened and in the passed involved in other religions(the belief that science has the answers is a religion too) I have my reasons for believing what I do. If you don't want to hear them then get out of the thread. But don't complain that we don't listen or are trying to convert you because that is a lie.

PaulW
in islam we believe Satan to be one of the Jinn being
and according to OUR believe
Jinns are described in DETAIL
they are made up of fire
marry, kids, eat, drink, sleep, just like any other human
they are invisible in their ORIGINAL form, but they can take on other forms..
and yes we believe he has horns
not hollywood type..
and we dont believe he got a tail, or holds a stick
and also about God with a beard..

in islam
one who compares ANYTHING to God automatically becomes a disbeliever, because Qur'an clearly states that those who do this are not muslims..

but i agree with you
religion to personify satan, God (however i never came across anything that personified God with human characteristics in islam)

it has a LOT to do with faith
example
according to islam, with all the proofs i have found
i find it to be true.
on saying that
if Islam says "satan has horns"
since i havent seen him, but based on my belief and confident in islam, of course i would believe he has

so big part of the puzzle is based on faith

with Jethro
he is psycho, he is Gen-X II
:)
*cmoon get mad man*
but on a serious note about jethro
he is clearly an athiest and discussion belief with an athiest is like trying to lift a mountain with your bare hands..

Actually satan doesn't have horns and a tail. He actual looks like an angel which in bible scripture looks like any of us, but much more attractive. Ghost are not necessarily view as evil by any religion that I know of. They are simply a spirit stuck on our plane of existance for a possible number of reasons, but not evil.(I used to be a wiccan)

thats according to YOU
according to islam
thats an accurate description of a JINN
and a satan was among the JINN

i know you believe he was an angel
and totally disagree with what i just said
duhh thats expected

when someone is an angel they are ALL good
cant have any evil in them
so satan was not an angel

Of course I disagree ;) What fun would we have if I didn't but what exactly is a Jinn? This would help so I know exactly what you are saying. From what I know a Jinn was comparable to an evil genie. I just want to know how far off I am and what it actually is.

jinn is another form of being
like humans they are able to make decisions
and no they are NOT all evil
but majority of them (army of satan....)
there is a really good book out there
its 10 bucks to buy

called "World of Jinn and The Devils"
here is the link
http://www.al-basheer.com/viewBook.asp?itemNum=1002
it will give you all the details you need to know about Jinn beings,

jdavidson,

When did I say that you were trying to force your beliefs on me. My 'complaint' was that you were both couching your language in terms of absolutes.

Quote from Edwin:
"God exists"
Quote from you:
"Satan doesn't have horns and a tail"
Quote from kovan:
"the bible is NOT direct word of God"

All of these are unprovable assertions. You have to use faith. I have no problem with that BUT I resent your misinterpretation of what I said and I particularly resent the inference that I am a liar.

I do not want to fall out with anyone, I was just tring to show the futility of making mutually contradictory assertions that prove little and have no effect on the beliefs of the recipient. Reasoned debate is great. Intemperance is not.

I feel better now. Take it easy:)

Paul.

paul
actually mine is and can be proven :)
since bible is not direct
meaning god didn't write the EXACT text in the bible
it said to be inspired by god or something but its not direct word of god
and i dont think any christian would disagree on the fact that god didnt' write the EXACT words that are in the bible

so what happens?

i win :)

jk
seriously dude
i am open to any debate, discussion
but from how i see it with jdavidson and edwin, they dont have the knowledge to have a good debate
if one says something they dont like
they go and quote from the bible.. well hello but some of us dont believe in the bible so that just makes it worse..

n e ways stay calm the way you are, we need at least one calm person :)

In the end, nothing is provable because 'proof' is based on experience and experience could be delusional. For instance, you might be afigment of my imagination...

I am calm, just not keen on being called a liar.

We could have a good debate. I happen to believe that the Bible is a divinely inspired document, however, that does not mean I have to blindly believe each and every word. We read the Bible in the spirit of enquiry.

As a rational being with my own thoughts and ideas, I am a little suspicious of ad nauseam quotations, from any source, used to 'prove' things.

Anyway, be happy:)

P.

we share something in common
i believe SOME of the bible is true
...

yet i believe some of its corrupt
so if i find something tiny winny wrong with such thing
i just reject it all togather cus if some of its corrupt it woudn't make sense to follow in parts but not whole
so there for some of the bible is true, but not all
and since ME, I, dont feel its complete
i will not follow any of it

being called a lair is put down of your ego hehe
not just you, me and everyone else

i dont like being called a lair either dont worry hehe

but ya i am always up for a good DEBATE

i am very happy indeed :)
actually let me think about that,, ya i am happy
hehe

From the list of reasons of proof of Muhammad being a prophet on that sit, not one unless I missed something can prove he was a prophet of God, and as far as the writing of the book one, that is completely based on opinion. Sounds almost like Idol worship to some degree. Is there something I am missing. I am really trying tounderstand this but this sound like the mormons to me.

Who called you a liar?

they make perfect sense to me...
.

how is it sounding like idol worshipers?

dont read peoples opinions..
go and read the Qur'an if your so interested in islam

that was just a site i gave you so you would gain some knowledge about islam
dont seem you got any
still blind as you were before..

if your talkinga bout me,
no one on here, i was just generilizing
but from the looks of it either you or edwin called paul a liar..

at least thats what i gathered

That is a lie. I have never quoted the bible for this discussion as proof. GO back and look. As far as me not knowing enough thats a crock. I wasn't insulted until now .

i got called a liar too

paulw we really have things in common now


seriously jdavidson
you dont know squat about islam
and you pretend you know, i told you a trillion times if you want to know REAL islam
you read the Qur'an


and as far as you being insulted
hmm like i care
cus i am being truthfull that you dont know squat about islam

You said I used scripture about the validity in the bible. That is not the case and you know it. What I know about islam is what I have read from the site you told me to learn about it. I am being truthful about what I am seeing. Its very easy to say all the other scripture are corrupted but amazing enough muhammads book isn't. The whole foundation of what you are believing is founded off those original scripture since they were the beginning of the faith, but now they are all corrupted so how can you accept Muhammad as a true prophet of God when you have no basis to validate what he had to write and say with Gods word of the past. If they are then everything muhammad wrote has no validation or if there is a conflict you can now say thats corrupted. Thats too convienent. No where does my bible do that and if I found that the book of muhammad stays with the scripture then great, I'll look at considering him a prophet of god, but to go and say theyare corrupted with no real proof other than muhammad says so is really paphetic. I'm willing to bet there are plenty of conflict between the original scriptures and those of muhamad. What I would like to know is how did the muslims get the so called book of jesus if he was never outside of the now country of isreal(the jewish nation) but the jews to who he was preaching never got this book. You say the trinity does't make any sense. Neither does that. And this isn't based off of the bible but historical records. Go and look for your self. I think you are lacking the adaquate knowledge to there kovan.

Well we really are showing off the best side of Christianity and Islam, aren't we?

I'm taking my ball home.;)

Cheers,

Paul.

jdavidson
ok so you only know what you read of that site
and you claim what you read of that site is to be PEOPLES opinions.
so why dont you read Qur'an (muhammad did NOT, i repeat NOT write qur'an)
then when you read the qur'an and learned what God said not what people said
then you can come back and we can have a nice well mannered debate,

and what book of jesus are you talking about?

if your talkinga bout the bible (which muslims believe in)
that was a bible from God(doesnt exist today)

paulw
you threw the towel in too soon :)

so you do use the new testament. My understanding was there was a book written by jesus. and the book of muhammad was written by who if not mahammad? Doesn't that now follow the same type of scrutiny that the gospels are?

Satans two definitions,

either you can choose your own, the image that every single religion have of him, if they have, the bad-guy personification, or you can choose a simple concept:
The dark side of free will. And the sides are of course the course the classical evil and good.

With this definition devil could exists independently of any god, but instead depend on if you define your will as free.

Now i hope you don't mix these two definitions!

On a side note god does not imply the existance of devil either, since god could have created a load of machines instead, but whats the *****ing point in that?

no i dont use the new testiment
old, new,
the ONLY thing we use is Qur'an and the examples of muhammad
Qur'an being the absolute
can you please go read about islam instead of making assumptions


keda.. what?
my head hurts to think of any other devil other than some guy in finland.. hmmm
hehe

Hehe kovan, that wasn't any surprise, i'm the finnish devil!
Think that there are so many devils that aren't connected to religion either, so *** are we talking about?=!

Well, if i had a quran at every local book store i would get one at the moment but I cant because there arent many in the US. What I saw on the site was the injeel, the gospel of jesus. where did this come from? who wrote it? and quit telling me to go read the quran. That is going to take forever. And the quran is not what god said. I have tried to avoid this the whole time here with you but you insist on making it a matter of you are completely factual in your faith and that is a lie. If you want to say the bible is what people say then thats fine but the quran is just as much what people say. This is what is really angering is a total disrespect of everything outside your little world.(am I sounding like genx now;)) I have asked you questions about the quran and you keep telling me to go read it. Its going to take a long time to read that book. The torah alone will take a month at least. Is there a reason you don't want to explain this? How can you prove that muhammad was a prophet of god if you have no uncurrupted scripture to compare with? You can't, you strictly have to go by what he said now which is what most cults do. Just like the mormins ignored what is written in their scriptures to accept the return of christ in america. I accept Jesus as God because I can reference him in the scriptures of the past. They tell of his coming and all the tests to show him to be who he is. he has passed these. Maybe muhammad was a prophet, maybe not, I don't know for sure until i read it. But you are being very close minded and arrogant by stating that Your book is the word of god.

Quote:

---

then when you read the qur'an and learned what God said

---

All I have tried to do is come to an understanding of what you believe and why. From what you have showed me so far is that it is a farce. A lie. Everytime I say anything about a christian belief you call it a lie all essence, I listen to what you say and ask questions and comment, you say go read the quran. I server The true living God, I know this for a fact. I can tell the stories of things he has done for me, but you wouldn't believe them if I told you and its not worth me typing them up for you. If you are so concerned with spread the word of alah and the truth, you sure are lousy at doing it. I hope the rest of your religion is not like that.

i told you this before
i would GLADLY answer your QUESTIONS

the only reason i said go read the qur'an is
because WE belive its not anyones opinion
and so if you read it and try to to undrestand islam from that prespective
and the Qur'an is in arabic so have fun :)

but anyways
muhammad came and said this is the book
take it, i dind't write it, read it, examine it
and then decide who its from
and thats exactly what i was trying to do with you
go read the book, examine it, question it,
ect then decide who wrote it
i have LIMITED knowledge of the quran
infact i dont know .00000000000000000001 % of it
when you get into it you will know what i mean

but to be able to question something you must know what to question first
dont you agree?

if you gonna try to prove that muhammad was not a prophet out of the BLUE then i really dont know what to say to you
you have to have FACTS on why you think so
and when you bring those facts to me
i would GLADLY try my best to help you out

remember your first email that you sent me?
you asked me if you could as me questions..
and i said i would gladly answer any of your questions to best of my ability

i still am wiling to do that

i just have ONE question, so i know how to approach this

Are you willing to learn about islam for knowledge base
or are you trying to prove islam wrong?
reason why i ask is so that i know how to help you with your questions

and from reading my own threads
i have gotten carried away...
now i think i am back to normal so if you like to DISCUSS islam, ask away

To be honest why I am asking, I don't really know. I think its a little of both. Part curious of what it say and part want it proven wrong. I do appoligize for my outbursts, I got out of control, i was just frustrated. I will try and read the quran if I can find one and I agree that you should read and come up with your own conclusions. That what I tell people about the bible. When I emailed I was interest on finding out if there was an online bible so I could take a look and reference those scriptures you posted before but I guess there isn't an english version and to translate it for me would take years...

nobodys listening? well i'm out then

Kovan,
I'm not through with you. I just don't have time right now. And seriously, questioning my intelligence only puts a question mark beside yours.

Jethro what is your problem. How have you shown me any rhetoric. You haven't shown me a damb thing yet as proof and if you did it was probably so stupid that it wasn't worth listening too. I have never avoided anyquestion that I am aware of on here and maybe you disagree with my view but to sit there and behave the way you do is wrong. no wonder nobody listens to you. I have stated what my christian perspective is that is all. you have a problem with that tough but don't say that I am telling stories. You are an immature individual. But then again you probably don't like me and you don't even know me. I have never insulted or degraded anybodies beliefs on here, atleast not intentionally. I have asked question and attempted to understand those belief of others but you make these sloppy logic statement and you have no reason to say them. You don't know jack about christianity and I expect that from a catholic. SO just shut up and go play in the coner like a good boy before you say something you regret. All I have asked for is answers and now you all think I am the antichrist himself. What a load of BS.

You think you can tone it down a bit. Not be so on fire with this. This is part of the reason we get such a bad rap.

Well quit making inferences, If I call somebody a liar then I flat out do it. I don't do hints.

Have you even read through the bible. I mean straight through. Not a chapter her then a verse there. Most of the catholic I know including priest have never read the thing and go strictly with what is taught which is wrong half the time.

Edwin - There is a BIG question mark besides mine
the question attached to it is
"Is Kovan REALLY that smart?"
the answer of course is YES
if you dont believe so
we can do this the democratic way and have people vote

but seriously, i did question your intelligence, i still do
cus you just have been blinded and only look at it from ONE prespective..
blah blah no need to argue with someone who lacks intelligence



Jdavidson
hmmmmmmmmm attaching jethro is not good
Gen X will show up out of no where and defend him.. (will he?)

but your right when you say it will take you forever to read Qur'an
if you REALLY want to learn about islam
keep asking
if you dont then quit asking cus honestly i have better things to do then answer long questions that just do no one any good

about me being a arrogant ***** comment
i am the type of person who usually slams the insulter with a bigger attack... but i will let you suffer of feeling bad
haha

Kovan-
I guess I am trying to understand who wrote the books at the moment. Did God himself write them? How do you validate Muhammads authenticity with out previous writings or scriptures, that are uncorupted? I guess the corrupted scriptures thing confuses me since they are pretty much the foundation that should be used to support muhammad.

I wasn't trying to actually insult you, it was the way you were behaving at the moment. Others have told me the same thing. All I want to do is try and understand. I appoligize for insulting you. Lets continue

[Edited by jdavison on 11-17-2000 at 08:23 AM]

since your interested in learning
lets start off with how islam started...
then you will get a better idea of exactly what islam is and how it came about

if you read ANY history (non islamic even)
you will clearly see that muhammad could not READ or WRITE
.. but lets continue with the BASICS


listen to the following
Start of Islam

That link didn't work.

I'm still trying to figure out were I called Paul a liar. Can somebody show me were I did? If I did I don't think it was intentional.

[Edited by jdavison on 11-17-2000 at 09:33 AM]

you have to have real audio player to listen to it
its a sound file

i just tested it
it works fine

Yep, I got the link to work but the ram file wouldn't run. I'll see if I can just download it first and try it again.

i have a cd of this at home
i will send a copy of the cd to you

Jethro,

I've reviewed what I said and I don't get it.

Quote:

---

There are exactly two mainstream religons who believe in Satan and possession.

1. The Catholic Church.

2. I believe the Jewish faith.

I have no knowledge of islam's belief in this....kovan come on down!

---

What about the other Christian churches? e.g. Church of England?

That is what I meant when I said you were being a bit sloppy - it was meant as a joke, but boy, the flames are a bit hot from here.

I was trying (badly, obviously) to make the point that people were making flat statements that would accept no contradiction.

Lucky I am an exemplary Christian, otherwise I wouldn't be so forgiving...

C'mon thats a joke...

P.

P.S. You probably will burn in Hell, of course, you're an Aussie...<GRIN>

I think everything is cooling down now actually. Paulw if I called you a liar anywhere, I do appologize. That was never intended. I have found you comment very openminded and interestinging. I hope you can continue with us now that we have straightened out some issue that were interfering.

Jesus! You lot all need to chill the **** out. 'cause your all gay anyway (and those of you that are gay, are all straight)!


Come on then, give it some large ;-)


td.

tumb what you been smoking? care to share?

always splash the ash mate ;-)


td.

Kovan,
"but seriously, i did question your intelligence, i still do
cus you just have been blinded and only look at it from ONE prespective..
blah blah no need to argue with someone who lacks intelligence"

If that is true, than you are just as blinded by YOUR looking at it from one perspective.

i dont think i am blinded to look at anything from one prespective,
i read about other different religions
and i am ALWAYS open to learning about more different ones
and idiologyes and belief systems
but what i meant is,
if i say anything that you dont like
you go run to your corrupted bible and quote from it

like you kelped asking me is Jesus telling the truth
i said YES, but not according to bible since bible is NOT his word

but still you kelped quoting "i and father are one"
i already TOLD you i dont believe jesus said that
so if you have any other sources of info to prove this i am WILLING to hear it, but i dont want information from a corrupted text book