Why is Internet Explorer better?

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

Well only time can tell if IE will become Netscape but Netscape didnt keep up with the trends and fel behind market demands.

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Netscape fell because they didn't have the resources (money) to keep up with Microsoft in development. That pushed Netscape to consider open source and thus Mozilla was created. They started working on Gecko which is superior to Trident (IE's rendering engine). Netscape's biggers failure was with the rendering engine that just wan't up to the par with IE, not to mention the other general browser features.

Now the same applies to IE. IE has almost all the same problems Netscape had when it fell. The new version is still too far away and when IE7 comes out we're almost ready for Firefox 2 and maybe Opera 10... which then are two-three major versions away from the level IE7 is targetting to at the moment (by overall comparison). IE's market share keeps going down and it might go too low before IE7 is out; a lot will depend on the final IE7. But I just don't see a successful future for IE7, atleast not to the level IE did with Netscape. The other browsers just are good enough to fight back and keep their existing users.



Edit: As additional note, I think no browser should get too big marketshare on the Internet. I'd worry if Firefox went over 80%. That won't happen (atleast it is very unlikely), but when there are more browsers out there, web developers understand their responsibility better and we get better sites that work on all browsers.

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Originally Posted by tr333

(I also notice that IE has zero (0%) support for the gopher protocol. :afrog: )

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What kind of argument is that? Who or what actually uses gopher? I've never seen anything in all my time on the internet specifically require it, it's dead, hence why in IE7, it's removed, it's a redundant protocol.

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Originally Posted by Ideas Man

What kind of argument is that? Who or what actually uses gopher? I've never seen anything in all my time on the internet specifically require it, it's dead, hence why in IE7, it's removed, it's a redundant protocol.

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it wasnt meant to be an argument. (notice the frog...)

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

I think that post is being requoted the most on this page :)

I only mean that you FF'ers love the extensions more the the browser alone. I wouldnt buy a car solely based upon it having a really cool air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror.

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on my mac, i dont use the included browser (safari) but instead choose to use another (Camino) because it has a better rendering engine. (even though safari has passed acid2).

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Originally Posted by Ideas Man

That's because without them, the browser is worse than anything else out there. I've always said, FF offers nothing IE doesn't, there have been ad blockers etc. out for IE for many, many years, hell, in 1999 I had an ad blocker for IE, and for some reason it's one of the biggest reasons people use FF

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Ad Blocker isn't same as popup blocker
I use IE frequently and I can tell you there are no AdBlockers for IE

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

I use IE frequently and I can tell you there are no AdBlockers for IE

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Ain't that the truth, but, like with most things that are annoying in life, you learn to deal with it so it becomes only a fairly minor issue.

I mean come on
If microsoft started HTML we'd be buying tags for our pages

Yes there is an ad blocker, or at least there was. I can't recall what it was called, but it had a little yellow circle with a plus and a minus sign for it's icon, the problem was, website developers ultimately got around it and it became useless.

Please understand, firefox has not invented anything new really, it's all on borrowed ideas/themes, hell, the rendering engine isn't even unique, it's NETSCAPE's engine, w/o that, it wouldn't even exist. Tabs did NOT originate in firefox, I'd seen them way before in things like the MSDN Library had (and still does) have them, VS.NET had them, opera had them, firefox is nothing special, and just because firefox came and these extensions came with them, doesn't mean there was no prior work.

Nobody said FF invented tabs, it's just an open source web-browser that enables you to create extensions to improve usability

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

Whats wrong? Well would you spend $10,000 on a paint job for your car or spend the same on repairing the engine so it runs strong and fast?

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How about getting both for free?!
FF is free, most of extensions and themes are free...Why wouldn't I!!

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

Nobody said FF invented tabs, it's just an open source web-browser that enables you to create extensions to improve usability

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You'd be suprised how many firefox fanboys have this idea in their heads.

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Originally Posted by Ideas Man

You'd be suprised how many firefox fanboys have this idea in their heads.

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They have the idea that FF is the first browser to use tabs. and that's true since FF is Netscape's dearest son

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

Ad Blocker isn't same as popup blocker
I use IE frequently and I can tell you there are no AdBlockers for IE

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I'm well aware of the differences between the two.

Here's a little program I used called AdSubtract so, you were saying......?
Mind you, this has been out since like 98 or 2000, so this is waaaaaay before the time of any firefox extension. Granted it's not free, but in it's time, it was a godsend.

With browsers, not free = not worth it, since can get it free for other browsers.

So, Ideas Man, you claim Firefox without extensions is poorer than IE. Can you back up this claim with something that has some flesh on it? What makes this opinion true? Because I'm using Firefox without extensions and I find it far better than IE (my opinions are backed up in various posts I've already written in several threads, not hard to find them).

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Originally Posted by Merri

With browsers, not free = not worth it, since can get it free for other browsers.

So, Ideas Man, you claim Firefox without extensions is poorer than IE. Can you back up this claim with something that has some flesh on it? What makes this opinion true? Because I'm using Firefox without extensions and I find it far better than IE (my opinions are backed up in various posts I've already written in several threads, not hard to find them).

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I'm not an IE fan but it is the standard for most sites

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

They have the idea that FF is the first browser to use tabs. and that's true since FF is Netscape's dearest son

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Netcaptor is widely credited with being the first web browser to use the tab model.

No, what I'm saying is all these things that are supposed to be firefox unique, do exist for IE. I never said that it was a better deal, and not free does not automatically equal not worth it for web browsers. Back in the day of dial-up, this actually was worth the money, any extra bits you could get from not getting ads was beautiful.
Now fast forward to today, we still have ads, but broadband is also a major player in the market, IMO, although they are nice, they aren't entirely required. I don't mind ads in general, they fund the sites I like (like VB forums ;) ), they all seem to load asynchronously with the page, so it doesn't hinder page speed, and they aren't always obtrusive, there are the occasional ones that really tick you off, but regular ones, I don't mind. Of course that's ME, some people can't stand them period, and that's OK, to reiterate, what I was saying was the 'major' selling points for ff aren't unique, they do exist for IE, whether they're free or not, that's another story.

The only real difference is that ff has people developing extensions just for the fun of it, IE doesn't really. I don't know why this is, maybe it's seen as something that you simply don't touch I don't know, but the foundations are there for it to be done, it is possible if you are willing and demanding.

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Originally Posted by penagate

Netcaptor is widely credited with being the first web browser to use the tab model.

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so..
I didn't say FF is the first tab-browser!!!
Another thing... we're talking about free browsers

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

I'm not an IE fan but it is the standard for most sites

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Define "most". How many sites you can find each week that do not work with non-IE browser? I tend to find about one such site each month when I'm not looking a collected list of such sites. A lot of sites are being made Firefox compatible and at the same time other browsers compatible, often just sending feedback is enough to let the changes happen. All Finnish banks are already Firefox and Opera friendly, for example.

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

so..
I didn't say FF is the first tab-browser!!!
Another thing... we're talking about free browsers

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It would appear from the post I quoted that you did, although that has absolutely no bearing upon my statement, and also Netcaptor is freeware. So don't be so quick to retaliate next time.

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Originally Posted by penagate

It would appear from the post I quoted that you did, although that has absolutely no bearing upon my statement, and also Netcaptor is freeware. So don't be so quick to retaliate next time.

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Buy NetCaptor Pro Now - It's Fast, Easy, and Risk-Free

it's the first line in red bold texthttp://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2006/02/1.gif

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Originally Posted by Merri

Define "most". How many sites you can find each week that do not work with non-IE browser? I tend to find about one such site each month when I'm not looking a collected list of such sites. A lot of sites are being made Firefox compatible and at the same time other browsers compatible, often just sending feedback is enough to let the changes happen. All Finnish banks are already Firefox and Opera friendly, for example.

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It's not that they don't work, they just doesn't look the way they should look..
Another thing I don't just open web-sites to check if they work on FF. But most sites on my bookmarks doesn't display correctly on FF

It's becoming a habit for me to start new pages in this thread

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

Buy NetCaptor Pro Now - It's Fast, Easy, and Risk-Free

it's the first line in red bold texthttp://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2006/02/1.gif

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Yes, there is a Pro version and then there is a free version... ;)

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Originally Posted by penagate

Yes, there is a Pro version and then there is a free version... ;)

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Ah,, Come on... The free version doesn't have full features.. ;)
anyway this thread dicusses IE not netcaptor :p

This thread, like any IE vs Firefox thread if going off course, and most likely won't reach a good conclusion, I predict some fighting if it continues much past this point.

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Originally Posted by bulletrick

Don't get me wrong, guys. I am a Firefox user and really love it. Sometimes, I am just thinking why others are still using IE and refuses to use Firefox.

There are already a lot of threads discussing why Firefox is better, maybe this thread would give IE lovers the chance to air their voices.

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You have all gone hugely off topic here.

The question posted was Why is Internet Explorer better?

There was a thread a week or so ago about FF - if you want to banter on about freeware and mozilla and opera - go back to that thread.

Those who have posted about IE and why it is "better" made very good points (sorry to use that term - certainly don't want to debate which is "better" - very subjective). If you want to debate those points - this thread is appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Hack

I explained what I planned on doing and she asked me to explain to her, in terms she could understand, what benefits Firefox has over IE for a non-computer person. I couldn't give her any answers.

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I even managed to get my fathers new GF over to Firefox when I was back home this christmas..you can really not have done your homework..:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Those who have posted about IE and why it is "better" made very good points (sorry to use that term - certainly don't want to debate which is "better" - very subjective). If you want to debate those points - this thread is appropriate.

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So, maybe it would be a good time to put all the good points into one post so it would be possible to get back on the topic. It had already been long offtopic when I wrote my first message in this thread.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

At least IE is finally listening and coming out with the new version that will have the "candy" that is so desperately wanted.

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When it comes to implementing new standards, they are still way behind. They have fixed the painting. Not much more.

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Originally Posted by Merri

So, maybe it would be a good time to put all the good points into one post so it would be possible to get back on the topic. It had already been long offtopic when I wrote my first message in this thread.

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If I had time today I might ;)

But then we are still getting posts now that are not on topic :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Invincible

When it comes to implementing new standards, they are still way behind. They have fixed the painting. Not much more.

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I would venture to say that to the simple consumer, the simple office worker and probably 90% of the IT directors of the world that statement doesn't hold any water. They all believe that MS is king of the world.

Please wait for me, guys! I am still writing my lengthy reply! Sorry! :D

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Originally Posted by szlamany

I would venture to say that to the simple consumer, the simple office worker and probably 90% of the IT directors of the world that statement doesn't hold any water. They all believe that MS is king of the world.

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What a dumb consumer think, and what technical specifications are can be pretty different. The world would go nowhere if all people in the world would think that the world is perfect as it is right now. No one would create anything new. Why do you think MS is finaly comming with IE 7 now, when they first anounced that they would not come with one before Vista came out. Well simple. It is because people are are making the move to new browsers. And why do they do that? because there is better alternatives out there. So what is so much better with the other browsers. Well, most of the points (as already said) is in the other thread here), but what is so much better with IE? Well, this thread was supposed to be about that, but the ONLY reason I have seen so far in this thread is: "Because our costumers use it". Well, how many pepople surfing the web out there, has cosutmers with browsers to really think about? Not that many I guess. You find a few in this thread since this is a dev forum. But if you asked on the street. Then you wouldn't find that many in %. So if all of them made the switch, what would you have to do then? Well, you also had to do the switch. But would you feel you made the switch to a worse browser? Well, I guess that is up to you to answer, but one thing I can tell you. Popular browsers like Opera and Fx has far much more power under the hood then IE when it comes to XHTML, CSS, and SVG support as well as other new technologies.

I tried really hard just now to google some statistics about home vs business PC figures - lots of links - too much to read...

But I think the argument stands without stats to back it up anyway.

Typical home user - buys a cheap box from a discount shop - has all the software installed. End-game - they never change a thing on the box - if we are lucky they avoid installing spyware and getting a virus!

Typical office worker - small office - same story as above (it's sad though - isn't it).

Typical office worker - big office - IT controls every step they make. (I work with some shops that don't even put PC's on the desk - all thin-clients running on application servers. They can't even put a screen saver on there desktops!

Typical developer (1% of the PC's worldwide) - 40% are using FF, 60% are using IE.

I'm probably nearly on target with this assessment ;)

And a year ago 7-8% where using Fx, about 90% IE....see where I am going here..and you are going nowhere????

Sorry, guys. I've been out for a while.

Whew! Just a few days and it's already in three pages! :D

Thanks szlamany for reminding them our topic.

See, guys, I am about to be Computer Engineer this April and one thing that I learned from being an Engineer is to derive solutions and decisions from empirical data and if possible, statistics. No opinions, only hard facts.

And, to make a decision for a choice of course of action or product usage, there should be a cost-benefit analysis which can give you more benefits. Cost-effectivity, in short.

I started this thread to see if people can win me back to IE. Hoping to get sensible opinions that can be an empirical data that I can depend on making my decision.

I think the only useful on-topic info I got is the info about IE 7 Beta 2. It is a good idea! Another proof that competition is healthy especially for consumers. If there was no competition, there won't be developers working hard to make their products "better".

Maybe you want to know my story.

I am a former IE user. I don't care about tabs or themes. My friend uses Opera but I didn't even tried installing it on my PC. I didn't see any good reason for me to use Opera.

Tabs? Themes? What the heck. As long as I get my work done, I am fine.

Then, I started to depend more on the Net. More emails, research papers, etc. I was a regular user. Not a big-time web programmer.

But I experienced problems that causes me to have non-value adding activities.

What were those? First, when a SINGLE IE window did not respond (got stuck, hanged, crashed, etc.) of course I will "End Task" that SPECIFIC window. But the problem is: ALL IE windows closes! "Nooooo! My research materials are gone! I forgot to bookmark them!!!"

So, open a new IE window again, go to Google, try to remember the best keyword combination that produced the best results (which can take very long), sort out the search results, then wait for them to download again.

Ok, I said, maybe because I have a slow PC (500Mhz PIII, 128MB RAM). Ok. I understand. IE is forgivable.

However, when I started to use my friends' computers which are much faster and better equipped with hardware than mine, I experience the same problem.

I said to myself, "Whoa. IE has some issues here..."

Then came Fox. I started to use it with v1.2.0. I was using Fox and IE simultaneously and experienced an increase in performance level in the same machine! When a single Fox window crashes, the system and other Fox windows are not affected.

So one good reason why I am staying with Fox. Here is another one.

I went to work last June in a company using very old systems (Windows 98) with very low performance machines. How low? Try opening 4 or 5 windows of MS Word and you will get MS Word windows with a lot of disfigured graphics with white spots and rectangles.

I tried to play with Fox and installed it that machine. One time, I was using Fox and was carried away. I forgot about the slowness of the PC and accidentally opened 4 MS Word windows with a Fox window with about 3 tabs!

The MS Word windows began to display erroneously again, but to my surprise, Fox is still alive and kickin'!

This incident really made me stick to Fox.

CONCLUSION: There should be an independent, non-biased study on which is better, or in Engineering lingo, which is more cost-effective.

The study should contain what errors or major bugs each have and how it affects our work. AND which browser really have those HELPFUL features that makes the user's lives easier and more effective.

My next posts would be quoting some of the posts here that I think should be answered. Please watch out for them! :D

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Originally Posted by Invincible

And a year ago 7-8% where using Fx, about 90% IE....see where I am going here..and you are going nowhere????

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You are talking about that last stat I put in 40% using FF and 60% using IE?

That was the "developer" group - 1% of users worldwide ;)

Back to the money aspect - I would not attempt to market to this group for anything.

The money is in the first 3 groups.

btw - I'm not trying to go anywhere. I'm in the group of users that could care less what my "surfing experience" is. I develop VB and SQL code 40 to 60 hours a week. I use an internet tool to work in VBFORUM (60% of the time), google for help (30% of the time) and check my bank balance (10% of the time) :p

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Linux? Why? FF? Why? Some google-version of OFFICE products? Why? There are so many applications needed by the users of the world, why decide to re-write OFFICE? What kind of business model is that? Investors too dumb to realize that in the long run all they did was fund some developers having a good time!

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Sorry, szlamany. I happen to be an open source advocate, too.

Rewriting the software to convert them to "free" software" is not really a "business" model. It is more like charity, an outreach program, or caring for the poor, whatever term.

They rewrite them to HELP those who can't procure the best but the most expensive. I can say that MS Office has better functionality than other OFFICE applications but, the question is, can I afford them? What's the use of having the best features if I can't use them?

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Originally Posted by penagate

People can learn from them, people can contribute to make them better, and anyone can use them for free. It is a community effort, not a way for some giant corporation to get richer; which, no matter how good or bad their products are, is all they stand for. I think you have misunderstood the very principle behind open source. The developers might have had a good time, they might not, but they did it for a clear reason.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

The dumb FF extensions. FF'ers seem to love them more then the browser itself.

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If you had read my story, when I first installed Fox, I did not know about those so I just stuck to the default installation features, but still I
experienced the difference.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

IdeasMan stated that after a while they will get tired of the toy extensions and its again nothing more then a basic browser. If your running Windows then why in the heck wouldnt you want to use a browser that is also written by the authors of Windows?

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If you had read my story, I did not consider the "toys". I am more with the performance.

Why would not I want that browser because it was made by the same author of Windows? If I have a Nike shoes, should I wear Nike socks? What if Nike socks sucks? (Sorry for the pun..) I would still use the shoes but the socks is not for me even though it also came from the "authors" of the shoes.

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Originally Posted by Merri

As additional note, I think no browser should get too big marketshare on the Internet. I'd worry if Firefox went over 80%. That won't happen (atleast it is very unlikely), but when there are more browsers out there, web developers understand their responsibility better and we get better sites that work on all browsers.

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Good point!

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Originally Posted by Ideas Man

Please understand, firefox has not invented anything new really

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They don't have too. They are just improving the features.

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Originally Posted by Merri

you claim Firefox without extensions is poorer than IE. Can you back up this claim with something that has some flesh on it?

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Yep. This goes out to EVERYONE: Empirical data please.

Need to sleep first guys. I might be replying after about 17 hours. :D

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Originally Posted by bulletrick

Sorry, szlamany. I happen to be an open source advocate, too.

Rewriting the software to convert them to "free" software" is not really a "business" model. It is more like charity, an outreach program, or caring for the poor, whatever term.

They rewrite them to HELP those who can't procure the best but the most expensive. I can say that MS Office has better functionality than other OFFICE applications but, the question is, can I afford them? What's the use of having the best features if I can't use them?

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I am of the belief that PC's, or computers for that matter, became a reality for home users because of corporations. If IBM and MS didn't make the PC and DOS a reality we would still only have COBOL and mainframes (I've been doing this since 1980 - so I've got a pretty good scope on the past 25 years of computer growth). Sure hobbyists would play with Altair machines - but that would be like CB radio/shortwave and not having cell-phones.

Closed-source development for corporate clients drove this PC world forward. Sure it was for a capitalistic end goal - but I cannot fault those companies for that.

Companies like closed-source - it equates in their minds (whether it's true or not - it does) to support and continuity. And the people sitting on the board of directors making decisions consider that the most important aspect of any business decision - whether it be software, hardware, what long distance phone company to use, who's going to pave the new parking lot, who's going to cut the hedges...

So - in the long run - I do not see your being an open source advocate swaying the IE-BETTER discussion.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

You are talking about that last stat I put in 40% using FF and 60% using IE?

That was the "developer" group - 1% of users worldwide ;)

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Did you try to make a statment now? Because you didn't. As I said, YES; you will find a lot of those people here since this is a dev forum. And that was my point. You are not representativ for the rest of the group which is 99%. Your likes and dislikes means nothing, since you are controlled by your office and money. But here is news for you. Surfing the web with the browser you want is free. Let the 99% rest of the world know about it, and let them deside if they want to have black and white TV, or the colours back.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

btw - I'm not trying to go anywhere. I'm in the group of users that could care less what my "surfing experience" is.

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So you finaly realized that...thats what I have been trying to say too...you are talking about having a good grasp of the last 20-25 years, but to be honest it seems like you are stuck in those days. If everyone was like you, not caring, then we would still be back in the old days with COBOL and Mainfraims. Is that your point? You really want to go back there, with radio and no TV, and all that? If that is not your point, you are lousy about argumenting for anything else. The world is moving on, no matter if you like it or not. Deal with it.

Invincible - why are you being so harsh?

Because I personnally don't care what browser I use doesn't mean I cannot partake in a discussion about a product benefits.

And actually - having a product I've developed running on thousands of PC's right now does make me a representative for the rest of the group. Having that product be responsible for tracking 10's of thousands of students and patients does give my opinion some weight. Having had customers from Anchorage Alaska, southern Arizona and all across the US and Canada does have some bearing.

I am not controlled by my office - I am my office - I am an ISV that has been producing commercial products since 1986. Being in business for 20 years is no small feat - I've had to navigate the downfall of Digital Equipment corporation, survive the Y2K nightmare - embrace VB and MS SQL as a solution for my customers going forward, and craft for them a product that is lightyears ahead of my competition.

With the IT directors I work with we fashion the "best" solutions every day - using state of the art concepts.

About the only thing that has been mentioned so far about IE that I see as a bad mark is the fact that all sessions crash when one freezes up - I consider that type of behavior a huge negative.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Invincible - why are you being so harsh?

Because I personnally don't care what browser I use doesn't mean I cannot partake in a discussion about a product benefits.

And actually - having a product I've developed running on thousands of PC's right now does make me a representative for the rest of the group. Having that product be responsible for tracking 10's of thousands of students and patients does give my opinion some weight. Having had customers from Anchorage Alaska, southern Arizona and all across the US and Canada does have some bearing.

I am not controlled by my office - I am my office - I am an ISV that has been producing commercial products since 1986. Being in business for 20 years is no small feat - I've had to navigate the downfall of Digital Equipment corporation, survive the Y2K nightmare - embrace VB and MS SQL as a solution for my customers going forward, and craft for them a product that is lightyears ahead of my competition.

With the IT directors I work with we fashion the "best" solutions every day - using state of the art concepts.

About the only thing that has been mentioned so far about IE that I see as a bad mark is the fact that all sessions crash when one freezes up - I consider that type of behavior a huge negative.

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You are really angry http://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2006/01/1.gifhttp://noteme.com/vb_extension/smili...FlagRocket.gifhttp://noteme.com/vb_extension/smilies/AR15firing.gif

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Originally Posted by ComputerJy

You are really angry

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I certainly didn't want to come off appearing angry - not sure what you mean...

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Invincible - why are you being so harsh?
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Because you don't get my points, and you don't answer my questions.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

Because I personnally don't care what browser I use doesn't mean I cannot partake in a discussion about a product benefits.
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True. Never said anything else. Don't know where you got it from. Keep to the facts Mr.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

And actually - having a product I've developed running on thousands of PC's right now does make me a representative for the rest of the group. Having that product be responsible for tracking 10's of thousands of students and patients does give my opinion some weight.

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Not really. You don't even say if the costumers use their browser at all. On the web page I am working on now, we have a few*10*million hits a month. Can't say that my voice should count more just because of that. But let me break down the consept for you a bit, so you maybe understand my voice a little bit. You are a VB developer if I have understood it right. Do you use any new feautures in VB5-6-.Net that they didn't have in some older versions? Well I guess so. Well, what if 60% of your market didn't have machines that could handle compiled code like that. So you have to downgrade your self to VB4. Even if it was FREE, I repeate FREE for all your costumers to upgrade. Would you still love to do it just because of the money, or would we start to see some frustration?

I pick frustration! :)

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Originally Posted by Invincible

You are a VB developer if I have understood it right. Do you use any new feautures in VB5-6-.Net that they didn't have in some older versions? Well I guess so. Well, what if 60% of your market didn't have machines that could handle compiled code like that. So you have to downgrade your self to VB4. Even if it was FREE, I repeate FREE for all your costumers to upgrade. Would you still love to do it just because of the money, or would we start to see some frustration?

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I must clarify - I don't do this for the money - my joke about using a browser 10% of the time to check my bank balance was just that - and trying to point out that most users probably use a browser for such mundane daily activities...

The .Net framework is free to download - and my customers will be slow to do that - so I am restrained from using new features because of the reality of the IT departments being able to move quickly. Having one organization, for example, that supports over 1000 PC's, means they have to carefully consider what it is in the silo. I respect that consideration - I cannot fault them for it.

With that said we end up supporting VB6 applications and move slowly toward using VS 2005. The new features in MS SQL 2005 are so incredible that I am chomping at the bit to get my hands on them - all I can do is discuss them in the DB forum here and dream of the day when all my customers finally get MS SQL 2005 on there boxes.

The lowest common denominator is a reality we all live with - whether it be browser capabilities, websites designed for 800x600 monitors - right?

And I do get your points - I'm really just playing devils advocate here. If there is a question you asked of me that I did not answer, please restate it and I'll try my best.

No anger - no frustration ;)

Ok, things are getting heated here and partially off topic, so if you guys dont want to see the thread closed or posts deleted then we all need to be respectfull and remember that we are trying to discuss "Why IE is better..." and if it involves the browser wars then should that be a separate thread?

I think you brought up a good point szlamany as most internet users are not worries about which browser they use, only if it works and they can get to their favorite site (myspace, google, online banking, etc.). These users are swayed by the FF extensions that make the browser "appear" as better since it has the additional features.

It was also brought up that the development community are the ones making all the whoop-la about FF which is a small percentage of the internet community as a whole.

IE can be viewed as better for the reasons below:
1. Authored by Windows (if your running windows like the majority of systems are)
2. Has more $ behind it for developing new versions.
3. It is not a fad or fly by night company.
4. you guys fill in some more

Where do you pick up this information "FF is used by a small percentage of the Internet community" and "only development community push the noise"? Some facts about how much Firefox has spread.

Europe: over 20%
Australia: over 18%
North America: over 15%
Worldwide: 11.5% (reported last November by OneStat, it is larger by now)

Firefox has been downloaded over 150 million times from the official sources. Likely there are much more copies out there than that.

This is a bad misinformation you have had here. Firefox couldn't have that big share if only developers used and promoted it. There are millions of regular users who use it. I help several each week with their problems. Age range is wide, I've helped over 70 years old and less than ten years old. There are schools switching to Firefox, there are universities switching to Firefox, there are cities switching to Firefox... this isn't a small percentage like it was over a year ago.

If you ever take a look at SpreadFirefox and ignore the fanboy posts, you'll find out there are a lot of normal people spreading the fire, doing groundwork. Developers couldn't do that, they're mostly too busy with the development ;)

Too bad that link is not in English so I can only go off the map. The way it is being presented makes it look like its a virus "spreading" all over but in low percentages. Just because they download it doesnt mean that they are sticking with it. I think we would have to go off of various website hits to determine a more accurate sampling of who is actually using what.

Even I downloaded FF - but I'm using IE because of it's integration with Mind Manager.

4. Integration with other major corporate products

#5. ActiveX support.
#6. You can only get a Windows Update with IE.

Oh no no no. #5 is a major security vulnerability, you can't claim that as an advantage ;)

It's being phased out by none other than MS themselves anyway.

Yes it may be but then so could allot of other things too could be considered security issues. Without ActiveX you can not do online virus scans from a number of vendows, do a Windows Update, Office Update, and run a number of other website controls and programs.

In the end, it is a plus when managed correctly.

Windows Update and Oppice Upfate didn't have to need ActiveX, they could work fine without it. It will be disabled by default in IE 7 anyway, so obviously they must be changing the stystem to work without it as majority of users would not know to enable it just for Windows Updaete.

But online vireus scans... to do a virus scan you need acvcess to all the computers files, don't you agree that is a major security risk? It could go through your files, retrieve data, destroy data... many possibilities.

I am really sorry if you think I go of topic again. I just wanted to show some things that my teacher showed me 5-6 years ago. And it is still not fixed in IE. I just tested it in IE 7, and can see that it is still not fixed or added to IE. Which proves that IE is holding back the web.

Here is a few examples:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/math...o/basics.xhtml
writing math formulas on the web is not easy without making a picture. This web page shows a way of doing it. Never seen it before? Reason no one using the technique since IE is holding back the web. This is how it is supposed to look:
http://www.noteme.com/images/ss/math.jpg


This is an other example:
http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/demos/eagle-sun.html
You are supposed to be able to both move the sun and the bird. Doesn't work in IE. BUt the funny thing (just look at the pictures for those of you who are just using IE) is that the shadow changes dynamicaly:
http://www.noteme.com/images/ss/bird1.jpg
http://www.noteme.com/images/ss/bird2.jpg

Last example for now:
http://www.mozilla.org/start/1.0/demos/stickies.html
Dynamicaly made notes. You can make new, and move them around. For IE users look here:
http://www.noteme.com/images/ss/notes1.jpg
http://www.noteme.com/images/ss/notes2.jpg



ANd just for fun....CornedBees home page.::D:D:DD:
http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e0226430/base.xhtml



- ØØ -

All your noteme links are giving the 404 error.

All your 404s are now fixed..:D