This is absolutely disgusting!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

i can't believe the european papers could be so stupid! (or money-grabbing)
What in the world were they thinking knowing the reaction it would cause??? :eek:

---

Is this a good reason not to print something? The Muslims might burn stuff down? If you really want to worry think about what gets said about the US. Ooow. What if we got all in a wad about every little thing? We have nukes. Mmmm, next time a Danish paper says something about us...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

Why do we have to target Muslims and there beliefs? Being a Muslim I also condemn the printing of something that abuses our prophet(peace be upon him) or our religion.

---

Welcome the party. The rest of us with any religion have been bashed for years. You might want to get used to it. The big difference between Muslim protestors and, say, American Christian protestors is that they burn down buildings and chase harmless Danes out of town while our variety do this dopey stuff:

http://www.baptis****ch.org/fredphelps.html

Oh, and when Phelps talks about killing me, I know he's not coming over to do the job himself -- or send some young kid to do the job for him.

Maybe if the guys in Lebenon just got some spray paint and posterboard and used their imagination... ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsJimbo

The big difference between Muslim protestors and, say, American Christian protestors is that they burn down buildings and chase harmless Danes out of town while our variety do this dopey stuff.

---

Wrong wrong wrong, it still only a small minority.

Oh, and can I bring your attention to the KKK...weren't they American ;)

Personally I am amazed that in todays world so much fuss can be caused over fictional characters.

Woka

Since when was chur a bad word?

What the... Link didn't work, did it.

Try this one: http://www.hatemongers.com/home.html

Check out the signs. I've seen some of their better ones in real life. Very impressive. :rolleyes:

Now if there is a Norweigan consulate in Lawrence....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wokawidget

Wrong wrong wrong, it still only a small minority.

---

You'd better hope so. Then again, that may not be the smartest thing to hope for.

Now people are burning effigies of the Danish PM...he hasn't done anything wrong!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4691878.stm

Quote:

---

But the Union of Islamic Organisations of France, one of the groups that applied for the injunction, said "one cannot insult a religion".

---

I am sorry, but why not? Get a grip on reality.

I actually do find it insulting that in a world that has science as a powerful aid to backup our existance and theories, that people still believe what is written in a novel published thousands of years ago, to which there is no basis for fact what-so-ever that can be backed up with any kind of proof.

So, apparently God created Adman and Eve 1st...ok, fair do's...so, how do you explain dinosaurs that are millions of years old that arn't covered in the bible...:quick, think of something: "err god put the dinosaur bones there for non believers"...come on, is that the best you can come up with?

In the US some christian schools actually want to drop teaching about dinosaurs and such like!

Even though I disagree with religion I still see how it can benefit certain indiviuals and give them peace of mind and stength to carry on through the day. Follow this religion in your own homes, churches, mosques etc...I have no problem with that. But as soon as people start dictating what I, yes me personally, can or cannot do regarding their fake religion then this starts to wind me up.

If soemone insults the English I laugh, i do think it's amusing, and while I have been out here in the US I have taken some stick from people at my new company for not only being English, but for being a VB programmer (C developers really look down on VB). Has it bothered me...has it heck.

Woka

PS And before people jump down my throat and say that I cannot say that religions are fake, the fact that someone posts saying they believe in god, or the prophet, or whomever, then this essentially is them saying that science and other religions are fake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsJimbo

Welcome the party. The rest of us with any religion have been bashed for years. You might want to get used to it. The big difference between Muslim protestors and, say, American Christian protestors is that they burn down buildings and chase harmless Danes out of town while our variety do this dopey stuff:

---

I am also not with the voilent protestors. But my point was that Freedom of Speech doen't mean that you will offend others. Even in US, you have freedom of speech but that does not mean you will go and start offending people on the road. We are not going to get used to being offended everytime.

I would say the newspapers owe an apology and they have to do so, because they have hurt each and every muslim in this world. And these things are not going to help us as I had mentioned in my previous post. You need to be responsible for your own actions in this world. If you offend someone's beleif that person/community is going to protest/condemn such acts.

This Cartoon row was started in september and Dannes apologized for this. I don't understand why papers in other European countries had to reprint them. It was not Freedom of Press, it was done just to offend a particular community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

This Cartoon row was started in september and Dannes apologized for this. I don't understand why papers in other European countries had to reprint them. It was not Freedom of Press, it was done just to offend a particular community.

---

No, it was done as a statement of "we're not going to be bullied", which is essentially what is happening. Certain people are trying to stamp their religion in places where it doesn't belong.

Can you remember miss world in Nigeria...after a local newspaper wrote that Prophet Mohammed would have made one of the Miss World contestants his wife the world went nuts. People died, building were torched. Insanity. Similar to what we have here. Why is this character so protected?

I am sorry, but it's just absolutely rediculous to get so wound up about something so trivial. Why does it matter so much what other people, who have no impact on your life, say or do.

My girlfriend got a new hair cut, I didn't like it, I told her so. she was offended, but my house still stands, we are still seeing each other.

People are offended every day of the year, it's just part of life. It happens. Read my post above #66. I am insulted and offended, but do you see me boycotting anything, or making rash judgement on individuals...no.

I am intregued, but this isn't me having a go at you or anything, but why does this offend you personally so much? Is it not possible to think "stupid newspaper, doesn't know what it's talking about, it is only a newspaper, I'll get on with my life" and then just never buy that newspaper instead...

Woof

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

I would say the newspapers owe an apology and they have to do so, because they have hurt each and every muslim in this world.

---

Disagree.
I agree with people going out and protesting in a peaceful manner, in fact it quite impresses me that people can be so devoted.
However, referring back to my comments in post #66, so from what you're saying does this mean you and every other religious person in the world should appologise to me? Ain't gonna happen is it? :(

Woka

It all depends on how you beleive in your religion. What we don't understand is that Muslims around the world beleive in their religion. The prophet in our religion has got the highest place in our lives second only to God almighty.

So If I am a beleiver I would not tolerate such incidents and I would condemn such acts. This would not only include this incident but incidents like 7/7 or 9/11. It is the responsibility of the respective governments to make sure that sentiments of other communities are not hurt (Be it Muslim, Christain or any other religion).

What we need to understand is that attacking each other is not going to take us anywhere. Why can't we just live in peace? Why can't we just stop targetting Muslims? Why can't we just let people live their lives the way they want to? Why can't we just understand that voilence is not the way? And last but not the least, If I have hurt someone I need to apologize same way if these newspapers have hurt Muslims they need to apologize. I would again stress on the point that having freedom of press/speech does not mean you will start offending me.

And to the reponse of Post 66, I would like to add one more thing here that it is not one person that has been hurt, it is the whole community and we need to address this honetly.

I have a quick question, from religion classes i learned that Muslims belive in Moses, Jesus and all the prophets, then how come it is only the Prophet Mohammed, that is so strongly guarded. Shouldn't you be defending every prophet? How come when pictures of Moses are published in the papers no one cares, but if its the Prophet Mohammed, then the whole islamic community is upset?

That is a very good question. We beleive in all the prophets that came before the Last Prophet. And if you remember correctly there are Jews who beleive in Moses and Christians who beleive in Jesus. And if we start protesting against things which you have said, people will say that Muslims are interfering in others' religious matters.

That makes no sense at all. You should be either protesting for every prophet or none at all, otherwise you are saying that some prophets are more important than others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

It all depends on how you beleive in your religion. What we don't understand is that Muslims around the world beleive in their religion. The prophet in our religion has got the highest place in our lives second only to God almighty.

---

You don't need to understand other religions, just to accept that other people have the choice to follow whatever they wish and leave it at that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

So If I am a beleiver I would not tolerate such incidents and I would condemn such acts. This would not only include this incident but incidents like 7/7 or 9/11. It is the responsibility of the respective governments to make sure that sentiments of other communities are not hurt (Be it Muslim, Christain or any other religion).

---

Government and religious beliefs should never interfere with each other. That is the fundamental basis of a modern democracy and it works. (I believe it's in the US constitution?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

What we need to understand is that attacking each other is not going to take us anywhere. Why can't we just live in peace? Why can't we just stop targetting Muslims? Why can't we just let people live their lives the way they want to? Why can't we just understand that voilence is not the way? And last but not the least, If I have hurt someone I need to apologize same way if these newspapers have hurt Muslims they need to apologize. I would again stress on the point that having freedom of press/speech does not mean you will start offending me.

---

Why can't they accept that a peaceful protest works more effectively? Why can't Muslims stop acting like they are the victims? Why do Muslims always resort to violence instead of actually talking something through with the relevant persons?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

And to the reponse of Post 66, I would like to add one more thing here that it is not one person that has been hurt, it is the whole community and we need to address this honetly.

---

There has been incredibly hug emnity between the celtic nations (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) and England for the best part of 4000 years. Yet we live next to each other in peace leaving the emnity to a playful jab every now and again.

Ever heard of escalation? He calls you something, you reply with something more hurtful. He hits you with his fist, you stab him with a knife. He comes back with a pistol.....you see my point? Everything like this starts with something small and neither willing to walk away because they do not want to seem like a wimp. Just walk away.

It is just so sad to watch how easily people who have no interest in what the original offence was (even if it was unintentional) jumping on the bandwagon and everyone from that said community egging them on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew G

That makes no sense at all. You should be either protesting for every prophet or none at all, otherwise you are saying that some prophets are more important than others.

---

Each and every prophet is equally respectable. There is no such distinction here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by valleysboy1978

Why can't they accept that a peaceful protest works more effectively? Why can't Muslims stop acting like they are the victims? Why do Muslims always resort to violence instead of actually talking something through with the relevant persons?

---

If you read my previous posts, I did mention that protests should be peacefull. Another thing that needs to be addressed is that people start judging the whole community by the acts done by few hundred people. This is what is creating more problems.

Again I would stress on my first point that by re-publishing the material certain Newspapers have made a point that they are defending Freedom of Speech and it becomes more and more evident that they are not actually defending Freedom of Speech, they just want to have the matter escalated to the highest point.

Those people who have offended have to apologize. It can be people who printed the cartoons and people who burned the embassies. But as I said we need to have the understanding that unless we respect each others setiments and beleifs we are not going to do any good to this world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

Each and every prophet is equally respectable. There is no such distinction here.

---

Ok so i expect that the next time a picture of any prophet to be in the paper is should turn on the tv and see people protesting... I seriously doubt it would happen. How about all those movies about Moses, i should have seen millions of people protesting. How come it is only the Prophet Mohammed's picture that is not allowed to be printed but every other prophet is allowed. There should be 'no such distinction here.'

The Holy Quran and Islam have never preached violence.The meaning of 'Jehad' is holy war.The first point in jehad is a war against your inner self.Its just that radical Mullahs have led the people who are usually poor into believing that the West is evil.I dont support any of the Mullahs nor am i a fan of Osama.But who created Osama?What has led the Muslims to think US is evil? Whats the root of all this?

No kind of violence is justified.I condemn the acts of violence commited by all the misled Muslims.One thing I would like to add is that I am from a country (India) that has the second highest number of Muslims but we haven't seen any kind of violent protests.

PEACE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew G

Ok so i expect that the next time a picture of any prophet to be in the paper is should turn on the tv and see people protesting... I seriously doubt it would happen. How about all those movies about Moses, i should have seen millions of people protesting. How come it is only the Prophet Mohammed's picture that is not allowed to be printed but every other prophet is allowed. There should be 'no such distinction here.'

---

There are people who belong to faiths that beleive in Moses and Jesus. And if these people themselves are posting a picture or printing something against themselves then I would say it is their beleif. And I would not offend them saying that you cannot do this.

But what I can do is that I will not let people offend me or my religion using cartoons or photographs. You are again missing my point. What I have been telling right from the start is that we need to understand and respect each others beleifs and live peacefully.

Took this from the BBC website.

Pakistani liberals argue that Muslims know very well that the West - despite its emphasis on personal freedoms - also has its sacred cows, the Holocaust being a prime example.

What the Muslims have yet to learn, they say, is how to persuade the prevailing Western mindset to pay similar respect to what they hold so dear.

That is a task which liberal Pakistanis feel is unlikely to be accomplished by banishing the cartoons for being sacrilegious or burning down Western embassies.

"The cartoons should be treated as a window into the western mind and examined to understand the exact nature of this gap of understanding," concludes a lawyer from Karachi.

"Only then can the Muslims hope to explain to the West that suicide bombings are not a politically glorified quest for virgins in the hereafter."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html

That's one thing you DON'T want to try - protesting toward a military base.

"Meanwhile, a prominent Iranian newspaper, Hamshahri, invited artists to enter a Holocaust cartoon competition, saying it wanted to see if freedom of expression -- the banner under which many Western publications reprinted the prophet drawings -- also applied to Holocaust images"

Oh... this is going to be a hoot... battle of the religions via cartoons.

You beleive in Moses and Jesus right, and regard them as Prophets. Then why don't you get offended when they put cartoons or photographs of them in magazines or newspapers? I just want to know why the prophet Mohammed is regarded as more important that any other prophet if he was sent by Allah, like every other prophet before him. Shouldn't he get the same treatment? I do beleive that we should respect everyone's beliefs but i beleive that some people make a big deal over something that is too small to hurt them.

I'm not trying to start trouble, I just want to point that in other religions if something is printed that offends them, they normally do not protest or anything.

That is all i am saying on this topic. :wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fahad k

The Holy Quran and Islam have never preached violence.The meaning of 'Jehad' is holy war.The first point in jehad is a war against your inner self.Its just that radical Mullahs have led the people who are usually poor into believing that the West is evil.I dont support any of the Mullahs nor am i a fan of Osama.But who created Osama?What has led the Muslims to think US is evil? Whats the root of all this?

No kind of violence is justified.I condemn the acts of violence commited by all the misled Muslims.One thing I would like to add is that I am from a country (India) that has the second highest number of Muslims but we haven't seen any kind of violent protests.

PEACE.

---

That was an excellent post. :thumb:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

But what I can do is that I will not let people offend me or my religion using cartoons or photographs. You are again missing my point. What I have been telling right from the start is that we need to understand and respect each others beleifs and live peacefully.

---

Why will you not let them? Rise above such hatfeul opinions and realise that it was an accident and offence was not intentional.

How can the muslim faith not expect to be victimised when they are so keen to attack innocent persons for an accidental insult :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by valleys

How can the muslim faith not expect to be victimised when they are so keen to attack innocent persons for an accidental insult

---

Only a few of them are. You can't say all people that follow Islam would attack innocent persons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

Why will you not let them? Rise above such hatfeul opinions and realise that it was an accident and offence was not intentional.

---

Simple. Because it is my right to protest against such incidents. And it might have been accidental at first but after that it was all intentional. If you know that the cartoons first appeared in Sep and then the newspaper apologized. What was the need of reprinting them again in the name of Freedom of Speech when they knew it is going to create more problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978

How can the muslim faith not expect to be victimised when they are so keen to attack innocent persons for an accidental insult :rolleyes:

---

That shows how you think. :) Why should I blame whole of Europe when a single newspaper printed something? I wouldn't blame an English speaking person just because an English paper printed something that offended me?

Because of couple of guys you are dictating that whole of the community is wrong. I am sorry dear friend but you have got the basics itself incorrect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by penagate

Only a few of them are. You can't say all people that follow Islam would attack innocent persons.

---

Ditto here

The problem is that the right of free speech DOES give you the right to offend people and generally to behave like an rear pointing orifice. I would argue, however, that it's not a good right to exercise in that manner. I don't think Shuja Ali has tried to justify the violence of the recent protests but has instead asked 'Why would you knowingly offend me? or defend the right of others (ie the media) to do so?'. This seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me. And it doesn't matter why a muslim finds a cartoon of Mohammed offensive, it only matters that they do. After all, I like bacon, but I wouldn't feed it to a jew.

I think the original printing of the cartoons by the Danish press was excusable as ignorance and, notably, the islamic community protested PEACEFULLY, to that - they simply boycotted Danish goods. The reprinting of the cartoons, however, was not excusable. This was a deliberate attempt to offend and to provoke exactly the sort of reaction that has ensued. The question is not whether the papers had a right to do this (they do have that right), but rather why, as right thinking human beings, they would choose to exercise it in this case. The right of free speech is worth fighting for, but not over the ability to print some ropey old drawing that most us wouldn't regard as particularly funny anyway and when you know you're going to offend people by doing so.

Quote:

---

There has been incredibly hug emnity between the celtic nations (Wales, Scotland, Ireland) and England for the best part of 4000 years. Yet we live next to each other in peace leaving the emnity to a playful jab every now and again.

---

Many members of my Catholic Irish family would disagree with you :ehh: (which isn't meant to be an indication of my own politics - I live quite happily in Southampton)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nemaroller

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc...sts/index.html

That's one thing you DON'T want to try - protesting toward a military base.

---

Yup...not the brightest thing to do.

I am interested to see what happens regarding these cartoons in Iran about the holocoust. I hope they print the cartoons, and I also hope that people will just go "whatever" and pretty much ignore them, which is what I can actually see happening. If this happens then surely the papers plans would have backfired.

Also, the cartoons of the prophet were a competition to see how the middle east and Muslims are preceived by the west. As it should last week people drew the prophet with a bomb on his head, may this be wrong, or right, it's not an issue. However, if that's how people were perceived back then...what on earth is their perception now :(

Woka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

But what I can do is that I will not let people offend me or my religion using cartoons or photographs.

---

WHy not? What's so special that you feel you are except from satire? Bearing in mind that we are talking about satire here, and not a hate campagne.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

What I have been telling right from the start is that we need to understand and respect each others beleifs and live peacefully.

---

This seems a little hypocritical don't you think...? :confused:
Can you not respect the fact that the west (Europe) has feedom of speech, and therefore a satirical cartoon is perfectly accdeptable, regardless of it's nature and was not meant as a stab at the religion, but as light hearted humour?

Woka

Indeed, its certainly not helping woka.

If they didn't react violently the said newspapers wouldn't have done what they did (which is why I had a post exclaiming about their actions). Recently there have been many such comments about the Welsh in many different media types from "why do they exist?" to "They are full of single mums on benefit". Even so, as hurtful and derogatory these comments are I would never resort to a violent protest against persons that didn't originally MAKE the comments. I just ignore it and get on with my life.

Well what a tangled web we weave!

Let's have some facts (unverified I might add: before someone bites my head off)

On this basis around 1/6th of the world is Islamic, which means the vast vast majority of people are not interested in Islamic beliefs or values. The vast majority.

How do those who profess to be of the Muslim faith in one hand and promote violence in the other intend to live in a world where the vast majority of people do not accept, understand, nor believe in Islam?

Satire is embedded in Western culture; it should not be changed, nor modified. Every religion has to accept that it will be subject to satirical whims regardless of whether or not they like it.

As for the word 'offense?' How overused is that word these days? I suspect a great deal of those who were 'offended' were told they must feel this way. I don't see it per se as being offensive - it's satire - it's meant to pull at a few strings.

It's unfortunate that the overtly aggresive reaction from a particularly small minority of Muslims is in fact a parody of what they are offended by. This makes it circular and self-perpetuating.

It is up to the Muslim leaders to educate their crowd accordingly and in such a manner that enables Muslims to live side by side with their secular cousins in harmony (just as the vast majority of Muslims in fact do). Do they not currently enjoy the freedom to practice their religion precisely as a result of secular democratic government?

I can feel a profound and saddening sense of irony coming upon me . . .

Speaking as non-Muslim somewhat conservative american idiot:

First and foremost I'm repulsed by the fact that newspapers reprinted the cartoons merely to show off their "Free Speech". This only cheapens the great gift that we have been given in the western world.

Second I was excited at first to see that the arab world was initially embracing peaceful protest, such as boycotts and what have you. I think this is a major step in the right direction and will only make relations between our people that much better. BUT for every step forward that we seemed to take a bunch of steps back, this raging violence has brought us back further than we were to start. The radical muslim world (I realize that they do not represent muslims as a whole) needs to learn that violence will not gain them respect or cooperation, hatred and mistrust are the only things to be gained from this. Violence only brings about more violence, and it saddens me to think of the loss of human life because of a stupid cartoon. That my friends is unacceptable (i'm not saying that there are acceptable reasons for the loss of human life just that this is even more appaling).

I hope that some good can come of this, but as of now that seems doubtful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Well what a tangled web we weave!

Let's have some facts (unverified I might add: before someone bites my head off)

On this basis around 1/6th of the world is Islamic, which means the vast vast majority of people are not interested in Islamic beliefs or values. The vast majority.

How do those who profess to be of the Muslim faith in one hand and promote violence in the other intend to live in a world where the vast majority of people do not accept, understand, nor believe in Islam?

Satire is embedded in Western culture; it should not be changed, nor modified. Every religion has to accept that it will be subject to satirical whims regardless of whether or not they like it.

As for the word 'offense?' How overused is that word these days? I suspect a great deal of those who were 'offended' were told they must feel this way. I don't see it per se as being offensive - it's satire - it's meant to pull at a few strings.

It's unfortunate that the overtly aggresive reaction from a particularly small minority of Muslims is in fact a parody of what they are offended by. This makes it circular and self-perpetuating.

It is up to the Muslim leaders to educate their crowd accordingly and in such a manner that enables Muslims to live side by side with their secular cousins in harmony (just as the vast majority of Muslims in fact do). Do they not currently enjoy the freedom to practice their religion precisely as a result of secular democratic government?

I can feel a profound and saddening sense of irony coming upon me . . .

---

Another truly excellent post from yrywddfa :thumb::thumb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/4694090.stm

Errrr...NO!

England is not a muslim country.

Can I campagne to ban all religion and make it illegal to be religeous full stop, re post #66.

One of the reasons this frustrates me so much is because in a years time, will something else offend, then we are back to square one.

Lets take it to an extreme, say people start saying that women who don't cover their faces up offend. So there is a call for ALL women, regardless of religion, to cover themselves up...i have taken that to an extreme, but where does it all stop?!

Woka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fahad k

The Holy Quran and Islam have never preached violence.The meaning of 'Jehad' is holy war.The first point in jehad is a war against your inner self.Its just that radical Mullahs have led the people who are usually poor into believing that the West is evil.I dont support any of the Mullahs nor am i a fan of Osama.But who created Osama?What has led the Muslims to think US is evil? Whats the root of all this?

No kind of violence is justified.I condemn the acts of violence commited by all the misled Muslims.One thing I would like to add is that I am from a country (India) that has the second highest number of Muslims but we haven't seen any kind of violent protests.

PEACE.

---

Excellent post. I'd sure like to hear the true answer to those questions. I have heard right-wing answers, and they sound self-serving to me. I have heard little from the left except more questions. I'd like to hear an actual answer other than some variation on: "We're great, so they hate us for it."

As far as I am aware it was the CIA who "created" Mr Laden. Back in the 90's the CIA helped the afghans defeat the Russian invasion. They pretty much trained and financed the entire operation over a number of years.

This was when the 1st training camps were setup, but the "enemy" was the invading Russian army. Even though the cold war was over, the US and Russia still didn't like each other. The US really doesn't like communist states, and that's why they financed the Taliban.

One thing I have always wandered was why did he/they then turn on the US? Did Bin have this planned when the US was helping him? What did the US actually do to deserve 9/11?

Woka

One thingthat is interesting is that up until the 1st world war, the US was the whipping boys of the rest of the world. Spain, England and many other countries used to sail over there and give them a good kicking.
Then one day in the very late 1800's the US got wind of a planned Spanish invasion, and so sailed over to Spain and splattered the Spanish fleet when they set sail. Ever since then the US has not let anyone come over and attack it on it's own soil, and thus has always intercepted the "enemy" on foreign ground (abroad).
Essentially the US was that little kid at school who was bullied everyday, but then grew up to be a very strong lad who can stand up for himself, and so confronted any agression head on without waiting to be attacked 1st. We all must know someone like this.

Woka

Quote:

---

As far as I am aware it was the CIA who "created" Mr Laden.

---

This is a myth. The US did support the Mujahidin in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, but Bin Laden was not one of the revepients. He hated the U.S., had his own money and would never have accepted help for the evil satan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by moeur

This is a myth. The US did support the Mujahidin in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation, but Bin Laden was not one of the revepients. He hated the U.S., had his own money and would never have accepted help for the evil satan.

---

This is incorrect...I'm almost positive of it.
I have seen many documentaries that say otherwise, interviews with ex CIA agents, video footage of said CIA agents actually smiling and laughing with Mr. Laden.

Woka

I have just tried to find info on the web about this and have come across 2 very different stroies. The documentaries and video footage evidence I have seen is almost exactly what is found here:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Af...A_Taliban.html

However, I did come across some sites that say the CIA had nothing to do with anything and were not even present if Afghanistan.

From what I have seen and from evidence now publicly available due to the Freedom of Information act I am almost 99% convinced that what is in that link above is true.

ex-CIA members, who were filmed with Bin, also back up the info in that above web site.

Maybe they lied on camera for what ever reason, but personally I doubt it.

As you are well aware the CIA have tried to start the odd war here and there...I am thinking of a time when they sank a ship from cuba. This is fact and only became truth, instead of a conspiracy theory, when the documents had to be made public by US law x many years after it happened.

Woka

Everything I've seen (and I don't mean propaganda web pages like the one you referenced) says there was no connection between the two.

But, we will probably never know for a fact.

Wanna talk about who created what? A mullah in Denmark created this whole storm. Going on a tour d' Islam to rally the troops by throwing the cartoons around for months after the original publication. That, Shuja - is why the images were reprinted - that's exactly what the plan was. When that didn't work people up enough (read muslims), he added a couple more to the original cartoons, including a grainy photo from a French pig calling competition that showed a French guy in a pig mask. The esteemed mullah saw fit to claim it was a cartoon depicting Mohammed. That did the trick, and here we are today. The religon of peace my foot. And show me in the Koran where it says that images of Mohammed are forbidden. Wasn't this a response to Christian images of Jesus/God? You show us yours, so we won't show you ours. Pick a fight and that's exactly what you'll get. At least this may be a wake up call for Europe. If nothing else good comes out of this, at least awareness of the threat may finally be heightened and civilized people will act accordingly.

I've often wondered what it was like for those that lived and saw the beginnings of the world wars. Did they realize what they were seeing? Would I? I don't have that question anymore.

:eek:

I thought we had all come to agreement that it was only a minority of people causing violence...although this number does seem to be growing, maybe it's just getting more media attention and so we just assume it's getting worse. But the majority of muslims are good hard honest citizens of whatever country they are nationals of.

What we cannot do is tarnish the good decent people with an evil incorrect perception.

Remember 7/7 in london, well weeks after that Asians were getting onto the tube, in rush hour, to go to work just like any average person in London. When they got onto the tube people moved away from them. How awful must that have been. Complete strangers segragating you when you have done nothing wrong and it's purely because of your perceived nationality. Must hav been horrible and very upsetting for these people.

The worst thing is, is that even though I KNOW it's wrong to do that...would I have done it under the circumstances...I would love to say I wouldn't have...but...:(

It's an extremely shocking and horrible situation to be in, and I really do feel for the innocent people who are being portrayed as evil, regardless of race, nationality, religion or whether they like iPods or not.

Woka

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by demotivater

Wanna talk about who created what? A mullah in Denmark created this whole storm. Going on a tour d' Islam to rally the troops by throwing the cartoons around for months after the original publication. That, Shuja - is why the images were reprinted - that's exactly what the plan was. When that didn't work people up enough (read muslims), he added a couple more to the original cartoons, including a grainy photo from a French pig calling competition that showed a French guy in a pig mask. The esteemed mullah saw fit to claim it was a cartoon depicting Mohammed. That did the trick, and here we are today. The religon of peace my foot. And show me in the Koran where it says that images of Mohammed are forbidden. Wasn't this a response to Christian images of Jesus/God? You show us yours, so we won't show you ours. Pick a fight and that's exactly what you'll get. At least this may be a wake up call for Europe. If nothing else good comes out of this, at least awareness of the threat may finally be heightened and civilized people will act accordingly.

I've often wondered what it was like for those that lived and saw the beginnings of the world wars. Did they realize what they were seeing? Would I? I don't have that question anymore.

---

I knew they would finally blame it on some one from the community.

I am still stressing the point that you cannot offend me or my religion by printing whatever you like. And moreover it was done knowingly and was motivated to hurt people.

Everyone is talking about the violent protests across the world. I too do not like people encouraging voilence. But I also do not like people offending my religion. Why do acts which will encourage people like OBL and others to take advantage of all this. When I am not saying anything against other religions, why should others offend me.

And to have a look at the World Population , you might think that muslims are a minority. Have a look at this link . It says Islam is the second most popular religion in the world and is growing even faster than the population growth rate of the world. This is just in response to one of the posts here.

Satire is dead, long live the new satire. The time has come to introduce the world to Satire Light. Without the sting.

And cherry flavoured.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew G

You beleive in Moses and Jesus right, and regard them as Prophets. Then why don't you get offended when they put cartoons or photographs of them in magazines or newspapers? I just want to know why the prophet Mohammed is regarded as more important that any other prophet if he was sent by Allah, like every other prophet before him. Shouldn't he get the same treatment? I do beleive that we should respect everyone's beliefs but i beleive that some people make a big deal over something that is too small to hurt them.

I'm not trying to start trouble, I just want to point that in other religions if something is printed that offends them, they normally do not protest or anything.

That is all i am saying on this topic. :wave:

---

I Asked the Dude At Work This Question. Islam Prohibits Drawings Full Stop. So The Iqraa Channel/Al Jazeera for Example Which We Catch on Cable Shows the Prophets Biography Animated, Its Draws All the Prophets Followers, Friends Family, etc and Obviously is Done in a Respectable Way, Yet It is Incorrect and Refrained from. In Those Cartoons They Dont Draw The Prophet Mohammed Though.

Muslims Believe That Some People For Example: Like in India Worship Idols, Even Though People Praying Know That Some Ancestor Made That Idol, Supposedly to Represent God. That Eventually Got the People to Forget God And They Transformed into Believing That the Idol itself was God. See Where This is Going...

So Islam Forbids Drawings, It is Allowed For Muslims to Draw Trees, Etc, Anything that Does Not Have Eyes.
Example: Animals, Humans, etc. If a Muslim Ends Up Drawing Anything With Eyes And Regards the Drawings as Sins, Yet he Does it, then he Will be Punished on Judgement Day. Part of the Punishment is God Will Ask Him to Make that Same Drawing Come to Life, Which he Wont be Able to Do. Then He Will be Punished, As He Tried to Create Something Better that What God Has Created, and Muslims Believe Only God is the Best of Creators. I Kinda Agree With This As Kids of today Worship X-Men, Spider-Man, Etc.

So Any Muslim That Draws Animated Objects is Sinning. So This my Collegue Says "Shuts Up the Cartoons The Iranians, Etc Draw in Protest."

As For Offending Other Religions, Like South Park for Example, They Do Whatever Negative They Can With Jesus. Chritistians However Do Squat. He Says This Shows Christianity is not A True Religion - They believe its God Son, Yet they do Nothing, Muslims Only Believe its A Prophet & Look at their Response. They Blood Does Boil for Belittling of Jesus, Moses, etc, However And he says Those That Do Belittle any True Prophet is Cursed. They Also Believe Jesus Will Return On Day, But To Propagate Islam - Not as a Prophet, as A Preacher.

Your Question: Why the Prophet Mohammed Regarded as More Important Than Any Other Prophet ?

He Says Everyone has A Favourite, Like a father has 2 Sons for Example But Likes One More Than the Other (you can understand this?). Muslims Believe God Favourite Creation is Mohammed.
Proof 1:
You Know The Israelis And Palestinians Always Fight For the Same Piece of Land, Jews Saying Solomon is Burried There, But The Muslims Say its Their Sacred Site. Its Muslims Sacred Site Cause Mohammed, Just Before He Journey'd to Heaven, To Get the "Sallah Orders" (Salaah is the 5 prayers They Do Everyday) He Journeyed to Palestine with Angel Gabreal to That Same Site Al-Aqsa(which is that Building that has the Big Gold Roof), and Lead the Prayers Infont of All of the Previous Prophets, To Show All Prophets he is the Leader of Them.
Proof 2:
The Story Goes, Prophet Yahya had 2 Sons Haroon & Another One.
I Think Prophet Haroon is The Isreal Progeny (Jews) and From The Other Son Came the Arabs Progeny. All the Prophets Before Mohammed Came From the Isreal Side of the Family and All of them Knew That The Last Prophet Was to Come and That he was the Best of All the Prophets.
The Jews as They Were Told in their Scriptures Were Waitng in Arabia For the Last Prophet. But Because He came From The Other Side of The Family (Arabs) Not the Jews Progeny, the Jews Rejected Him. So the fact that he Was Known to be the Last Prophet By Each & Every Prophet, Shows His Status, to Muslims & to The Previous Prophets Themselves, Who Believed in His Arrival as the Last Prophet..

Quote:

---

I'm not trying to start trouble, I just want to point that in other religions if something is printed that offends them, they normally do not protest or anything.

---

Yeah I Hear ya, But He Says Imagine that All the Protests Were Peacefull. He Explains: The Cartoons 1st Came out in September in Denmark, The Muslims There Objected, I Think The Gov. Apologized, But Said it Wont be Banned For the Free Speech Deal. End of Story.
But then It Got Published Again This Year, Almost to Say Nothing Happend in Denmark, So Lets Mess with Islam As they Do With Jesus -This is How he Reasons it.

Personally I want to Know Why it Reprinted, it isnt Really Freedom of Expression and The Media Has the Right to Know, There's No Real Knowledge to Come out of these Cartoons, Only Hatred. In Denmark the Newspaper Competition was To Draw Prophet Mohammed in a Jestful Manner, as you Can See All the Pics were ONLY of Mohammed, and ALL were Offensive.(why republish that around Earth?)

My Friend Also Says If You Project the Prophet of A Religion WorldWide as A Terrorist, Who'd Join Islam?
Muslims Felt the Brunt of that - So The Protest Went out Of Control, WorldWide. Obviously the Peacefull Protests in Denmark Back in September Didnt Work, The Cartoons & Still Being Spread & Not Banned. So They Went Wild. In a way I Understand, But No One Should Die, If they Wanna Wreck Stuff to Scare The Media & Ban the Pics Evacuate People then Wreck Stuff.
No one Should Die.

You Should See These Muslims, In a Normal day, Everyday They Eat With The Right Hand, Enter The Toilet With The Left Foot, Wear their Trousers Above the Ankles, Refrain totally From Pork & Alcohol, Pray Before Eating, Pray Before, During, After Travelling, Pray Before Sleeping, Pray On Awakening, Pray When it Rains, Pray Before Sunset, etc.
This Muslim Dude Here Cant Even Eat From McDonalds or KFC, Cause the Meat Might be "Halaal" and Allowed For Them but the Spices isn't(if Fats Come From Impermissable Meat)
He cant Brush His Teeth With AquaFresh caue It Contains Certain Unlawful Ingredients.
They Wake at 4AM to Pray which last for about 3 Minutes Everyday, Grow Beards, Women Dress with the Scarf & Veil, etc...... and all this Because they say the Prophet is the Best Example, and he Did That, So that Must Be the Right Way, hence they Follow.

So After So Much of Their Lives Are Affected by the Prophet, in Everyday's Everything, How do you Expect Them To React When the Media is Dishonouring their Prophet Publically to Them & Everyone. I can Understand the Anger though I disagree with the Implementation/Protest.

This Muslim Friend Of Mine Knows His Stuff, So If You Got Questions, I Can Ask Him.

Nice Post Dude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Something Else

But what can you do?

---

A peacefull protest, stop using the products that are made there, stop reading that newspaper, things similar to that.

Hang on a minute - there's that word again: the 'offend' word.

Now I'm going to be first in line to admit I know next to nothing about Islam, and what does and doesn't upset the proponents of the religion. I know that if I served squid to a follower he's not going to eat it. I know the name of their principle fellow, and I wouldn't take his name in vein, or anything else, out of respect for the good (peaceful) people who follow Islam.

But would I draw a cartoon? I don't know - I actually don't draw cartoons that well - but would I have expected this to offend a Muslim friend? No, I wouldn't have. I have learnt from this episode that one shouldn't be drawing pictures of their holy people - even though Islams closest cousins, the Christians, have been drawing cartoons for kids for centuries. (I think the Bible has something to say about that, actually)

So where do I go from here? Is it now a social requirement to learn the ins and outs of the main five religions so that I will know, in advance, what it is that will offend and what it is that won't?

Do the people of the major 5 religions expect me to do the same?

I can prepare a questionnaire for the Christians, and Muslims on here on Buddhism if you'd like, so you can see how you'd fare on an 'offence test' against one of the smaller of the 5 religions.

In a complete turnaround of what I've just said . . There are obvious distinctions between respect and prejudice. Depicting anyone as a terrorist (without a shred of evidence) is clearly crossing the line between satire, and prejudice. This does not detract from the fact that depicting a major religious figure as a terrorist is an utterly ridiculous, stupid, and ignorant thing to do.

I support the current Islamic protests that are peaceful and follow the process of law as is customary in a democratic nation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

Do they not currently enjoy the freedom to practice their religion precisely as a result of secular democratic government?

---

The Muslim Women Traditional Islamic Dress Hijab To Cover the Head is Banned in Places Like France, Ireland & Turkey.

http://www.rutherford.org/articles_d...?article_id=92
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...y398539447.asp
http://islam.about.com/cs/currenteve...ce_hijab_2.htm

Isnt France one of the Big 5?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

The Muslim Women Traditional Islamic Dress Hijab To Cover the Head is Banned in Places Like France, Ireland & Turkey.

http://www.rutherford.org/articles_d...?article_id=92
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...y398539447.asp
http://islam.about.com/cs/currenteve...ce_hijab_2.htm

Isnt France one of the Big 5?

---

Actually, I'd forgotten about that particular issue.

BTW, France is not one of the big 5 religions. Not that I'm aware of, anyway.

Quote:

---

the difference between religious freedoms internationally and domestically: the French, Turkish and Russian governments acted to deny Free Exercise, while the U.S. government acted to protect Free Exercise.

---

Whilst there are countries that act in an intolerant way, I find it comforting that the US protects it's citizens. There are about 100 secular democracies throughout the world, and I don't think I would be alone in saying this, the French, Turkish, and Russian democracies are not representative of free-market secular democracies the world over.

In many cases these three are renowed for legislature promoting intolerance (normally to protect secularism, and not to promote hatred, btw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wokawidget

:eek:

What we cannot do is tarnish the good decent people with an evil incorrect perception.

Remember 7/7 in london, well weeks after that Asians were getting onto the tube, in rush hour, to go to work just like any average person in London. When they got onto the tube people moved away from them. How awful must that have been. Complete strangers segragating you when you have done nothing wrong and it's purely because of your perceived nationality. Must hav been horrible and very upsetting for these people.

.... and I really do feel for the innocent people who are being portrayed as evil, regardless of race, nationality, religion or whether they like iPods or not.

Woka

---

Like I Say, Islam and True Muslims Are Innocent concerning Terrorism & Violence Done By "Muslims", as Christianity & True Christians Are Innocent Concerning "Christian" Hitler's Rampage .


Whats the IPOD Gig?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yrwyddfa

BTW, France is not one of the big 5 religions. Not that I'm aware of, anyway.

---

He meant France is among the Big 5 nations not the Big 5 religions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shuja Ali

He meant France is among the Big 5 nations not the Big 5 religions.

---

MY previous post mentioned the Big 5 in a religious context. I thought he was following on from my context. If he wasn't then he should have specified that he was talking about countries.

. . and I very much doubt if France is considered one of the Big 5 countries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wokawidget

My girlfriend got a new hair cut, I didn't like it, I told her so. she was offended, but my house still stands, we are still seeing each other.

I am intregued, but this isn't me having a go at you or anything, but why does this offend you personally so much? Is it not possible to think "stupid newspaper, doesn't know what it's talking about, it is only a newspaper, I'll get on with my life" and then just never buy that newspaper instead...
Woof

---

South Parks 1st Season's Episode Started With Jesus, Its Season 9 Now & its Going On. Drawn Together & Countless Others Joined in to Mock.
I Dont Know If the Christians Opposed It, But I'm Hearing Nothing. - Theres the Problem, Doing Squat Causes Squat Results & on it Goes.

Seems Like the Christians Either Dont Care, or Maybe Feel Helpless, or Don't Really Have Faith To Motivate Some Sorta Action?

I Mentioned Above How Passionate The Muslims Are, Can You Wake Up Everyday at 4AM to Pray for +- 3 Minutes, Then Sleep Again, & Wake to Go Work? Yet Every Muslim Has to Do That Everyday.
In Contrast I've Met Only One Christian So Far, In This Christian Dominated Country I am In Thats Unmarried and is Still a Virgin. (this point is obviously not researched)

Had the Christains Protested Like the Muslims Did At the Start, it May Have Stopped - Which is What Christains Would Want - The Violence Part is the Hot Topic (its Wrong I Know), But Maybe Violence is What It Takes to Get a Point Through WorldWide, So it Seems?

Note: I am Not Supporting the Violence or Approving it, i'm Just Trying to Make Sense if It All.

Christians Slack in Their Faith, It Got to the Point Where Gays & Gay Priest are Accepted into their Faith. In Islam Can You Believe in the 21st Century they Refrain From Interest, And Can't Change a Single Law Based on "The Times"?
Interest Dude, its EVERYWHERE!
My Point Here Being is You Ask Why Arn't Christians Protesting and Angered, Well Analysing their Responses To Issues of Faith Like Gay Priests, etc May Hold that Answer to That Question.

Quote:

---

"stupid newspaper, doesn't know what it's talking about, it is only a newspaper, I'll get on with my life" and then just never buy that newspaper instead...

---

Muslims Don't See it That Way. Why?
If You Make the Prophet A Terrorsit Globally, Who Will Accept Their Faith?
Face it, We Got People in This Country, On this Forum, on this Thread Who Can't Differentiate That Muslims Can be Good, Hardworking and Against Violence, Not All Being Extremists & Out to Get Them? Its News For Them & I Can't Count How Many Times I Addressed These People Here and Elsewhere, Its Like They're the Ones Living In Caves.

People Today Believe Elvis is Around, Bigfoot, Spiderman. They Will Believe Anything in The Papers. Where Again is This Forums Thread Saying We're in the Matrix Right Now? :)

So Negatively Advertising in Newspapers Globally on the Religion Will Have Negative Impacts on Their Religion, They Realise This And Go Wild. - I Can Understand This.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wokawidget

My girlfriend got a new hair cut, I didn't like it, I told her so. she was offended, but my house still stands, we are still seeing each other.

---

Advertize Globally On the Net & All the Papers & TV 'bout your Gurls Crap Haircut, Then I Wanna See You Get Some! :) & If You & Your House Exist on Earths Surface.

my bullsh*t-o-meter just blew a fuse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Codehammer

South Parks 1st Season's Episode Started With Jesus, Its Season 9 Now & its Going On. Drawn Together & Countless Others Joined in to Mock.

---

Have you heard the recent uproar about the tv show on NBC called the "Book of Daniel". Google it. The show aired maybe once or twice before it was yanked, and there was no violent protests needed. South park has been protested time and again, but not as much due to the fact that is on cable, i believe and has a much smaller audience than compared to normal broadcast tv.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by codehammer

In Contrast I've Met Only One Christian So Far, In This Christian Dominated Country I am In Thats Unmarried and is Still a Virgin. (this point is obviously not researched)

---

:lol: I need to meet some of the women that you hang out with. :lol: