FireFox vs IE

It is a usual company issue. They have to be on top of every app used at the company, if not they will get big problems if something should happen with one of the apps they are recomending. It shows in the latest xitimonitor statestics (that i blogged about) that companies are much slower to make the switch to new browsers like Fx or Opera. But they are comming. NASA and other big companies have announced lately that they are making the switch, and when they say they will switch, it means that only Fx is allowed and not IE. Thats company rules. They want to stay on top of what happens, and take as few risks as possible. Exactly why companies are more affraid of moving away from IE to for example Fx might be because Open Software Solutions is not that trusted upon as it probaly should be. There is two ways of hiding bugs in the world. The open software method, where bugs are found, and corrected fast, and the other one is to hide the code, so the bugs won't be found, but when they are, they are making the market very vulnerable for it. I guess most administrators these days believe in the hide the error approach.


- ØØ -

I would guess half stubornness and half cost to change (intranet re-evaluations, staff to do the install, making sure everyone is trained and upgrades at the same time). I don't have anything against FireFox, it's a good browser (I did some more reading and learned alot here as well). I just don't think that management would see it as something they absolutely want to change in their company.

Our intranet is built based on IE's specs. No idea how it would look on FF because it doesn't matter. 50% (logical guess) of ALL browser use is occupational. Upgrading to a browser where people can surf the web at work more comfortably isn't something we want to spend our budget on. :)

Because of that, since IE is preinstalled on our OS and takes no extra configuration cost/time; we just use what we get.

My 0.02

Very good points sevenhalo. If you are working in a company that doesn't allow you to surf on the internet anyway, just on the intranet, then I can't see any benefits of it. And many things on the intranet might have been made so it works only with IE. ActiveX stuff and vbScript all over the place. Wouldn't work well in other browsers.



- ØØ -

by the way ...

Has any body tried to click on a link that makes a popup window many times ?
Try it ...

after you click it 3 times it WILL popup ..

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

Personally, my only complaint with Firefox is the download method. It's kinda annoying that files must always download to my desktop or some other fixed location chosen, which forces me to minimize everything, copy the downloaded files from the desktop, open my harddrive directory, and click on a bunch of folders till I reach my destination, and paste. Some people save it to the desktop so it's easier to delete later on, but I like to keep them and organize my files. Saving them to my own target path just feels more comfortable.

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Preferences->Downloads->Download Folder->"Ask me where to save every file"

Was always there - the only thing that changed was the default.


Another trouble with the Fox in companies is that large companies like to have the exact same hardware and software setup on all their machines. It makes reinstallations and problem hunting a lot easier. This means that changing any piece of software means changing it everywhere - and that can mean a lot of trouble.

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

Preferences->Downloads->Download Folder->"Ask me where to save every file"

Was always there - the only thing that changed was the default.

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Or simply right click the link, and chose save link as....



- ØØ -

Although there are Firefox installation packages out there that are in the MSI format, which allows easy remote installation to multiple computers. Unofficial though, so no support from Mozilla on that part. Yet this leads to this fact: Mozilla provides paid support for their software which is an important thing for companies.


Didn't IBM switch to Firefox?

Yes they did

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Originally Posted by Merri

Although there are Firefox installation packages out there that are in the MSI format, which allows easy remote installation to multiple computers. Unofficial though, so no support from Mozilla on that part. Yet this leads to this fact: Mozilla provides paid support for their software which is an important thing for companies.


Didn't IBM switch to Firefox?

Yes they did

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Well that is interesting about IBM. I didn't know that. I think I will show this link to my boss! :D

Just to say that maybe the main reason of the amount of updates for FF is that it's becoming so popular lately that many vulnerabilities had been discovered, nothing new, it's normal when a browser becomes so popular, more people uses it, more hackers will be searching for vulnerabilities, and they keep appearing.

Some links to recent vulnerabilities already patched in FF:
http://www.threatfocus.com/vuln_deta...cript_id=20427
http://www.threatfocus.com/vuln_deta...cript_id=20425
http://www.threatfocus.com/vuln_deta...cript_id=20420
http://cybercoyote.org/security/vul-firefox.shtml

In the past year, Firefox has had eight security updates: 1.0.1 to 1.0.7 and 1.5.0.1. I don't think that is all that much, although some of the updates came out in a row; once thanks to a wiseguy who thought Mozilla wasn't fixing a security issue he had reported and he told about this in public... thus forcing an unnecessarily quick update. Before 1.5 updating was a bit bothersome as there was no automatic update feature, only way to update was to download the whole package and reinstall.

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Originally Posted by Hack

Well, you folks are making a believer out of me.

Oddly enough, in many of the places that I've worked, the company restricted what was permissible to use for a browser. Both the company I work for and the company at which I'm doing onsite work restrict browser use to IE. You aren't even permitted to use NetScape, much less something like FireFox.

I curious as to what you think makes large corporations impose such restrictions. Is it just that they are eating a lot of Microsoft cornbread?

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To be very very specific, it's because of support. Now, while FF may be a wonderful browser and makes you feel good about yourself, it's still got an open-source background, and what many companies do is play safe... which is what Microsoft exists for. Microsoft provides support for its products, paid support, etc.

The bandwagon thinking is that if it's an application from Microsoft, it'll work best with Windows. If it doesn't work, we can call them, and they will take responsibility and fix it for us. This is a good return on investment. (Note: I am still in favor of FF)

The fact that your company restricts it also makes me wonder how you develop, whether you have admin rights locally on your machine, and whether they're out of their frakking (battlestar galactica anyone? ;)) minds. :afrog:

It's almost a standard for developers everywhere now... I introduced Firefox to my previous company, and soon it became the standard and we were all asked to switch to Firefox. But we continued to develop for IE. :lol:

I actually think Mozilla provides better support than Microsoft, or the least it is much easier to access. If you take a look at it, Mozilla provides community support via support forums, third-party paid support (but paid support nonetheless), plus newsgroups and IRC. Some localization groups also provide their own support sites. Not to forget the FAQs etc. - all easier to find than IE's support pages. You're welcome to compare the two:

• Internet Explorer support page
• Mozilla support page

To tell the truth, I have hard time understanding Microsoft's support pages. Anyways, where Mozilla lacks behind is the international support. For example, Microsoft has a support phone located in Finland, Mozilla doesn't; our support and actually everything is fully based on community... although I admit I've got a few phone calls and my e-mail tends to have atleast one question each week (I have neither visible); maybe I should get another phone and start a business :D

Is there some level of support which I'm missing here that Microsoft provides for IE?

Of course it's better. But that's not the point. There is a factor of ownership and responsibility as well.

It's like saying that VB.NET is a great language because www.vbforums.com has some oddball memebers who support it in their free time. In real life, there may be hundreds of man hours being dedicated to this and it may be great at answering questions and resolving problems, but the current, generalized corporate 'view' of an open source product would be something similar to that.

Back to a reality moment from my customers...

It's a "single silo" mentality - a single source - that's what the "budget" constraints of a large IT operation require.

My bigger customers buy all one type of hardware - one does only HP - they have an HP rep that caters to them - over 1000 PC's - that's smart of them.

Software? We have regular meetings to decide what the "group" will move forward with. Do we allow the 1000 teachers to each use a different gradebook product? No - we dictate a single source.

Support from a forum? Never in a million years would a customer do that - we all do - that's how we build our expertise - by sharing. Customers are actually scared of that - they want large-scale corporate built help desks - even if they never, ever use it.

btw - I find MSDN and the KB's spectacular. They have bailed me out of dozens of strange experiences that I have had... I google for a problem - the MSDN links are safe - experts-exchange wants to charge me $$'s to see the resolution :D

[edit] - thanks NoteMe for pointing out my error ;)

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expertsexchange wants to charge me $$'s to see the resolution

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They put the button before the answers. Just scroll down near the bottom of the page to see the answers.

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Originally Posted by dglienna

They put the button before the answers. Just scroll down near the bottom of the page to see the answers.

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Then that is even worse - scams are no way to build customer relations...

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Originally Posted by dglienna

They put the button before the answers. Just scroll down near the bottom of the page to see the answers.

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Sometimes there is no answer at all. Just the question, the button and the HUGE ad table !@#
In that case, to see the answer use Google cache. ;)

And for that, get the gcache Firefox extension, which offers an easy way to access the Google cache for a page from the context menu ;)

though this is drifting OT - Thre is occasionally some good stuff on EE.. if you scroll all the way down on the right, there is a 'sign up as expert' thing that can make an account with, and view everything.. I think you have to succesfully answer posts before you can post for free though..

Bill

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Originally Posted by conipto

though this is drifting OT - Thre is occasionally some good stuff on EE.. if you scroll all the way down on the right, there is a 'sign up as expert' thing that can make an account with, and view everything.. I think you have to succesfully answer posts before you can post for free though..

Bill

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I am a member there - you trade points to get points to answer questions...

I rather be here ;)

Even though I am a member - when I google a question and click a link at EE it doesn't log me in and give me the answer - and I don't care to figure out why...

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Originally Posted by szlamany

I am a member there (EE)...
I rather be here ...

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So am I...

I can always scroll down to get the answers, even though I've never answered a question there. I registered sometime last year.

Re Firefox:
I am using Firefox for almost one month. I was an Opera user for almost 5 years.

I must say, I'm disappointed with Fx. Even with Fasterfox it can't beat Opera's speed. I have installed imgLikeOpera extension to speedup page loading, but many times it misses images, even if the image is in cache.

From a VB developer's point of view Fx is prety much useless. The only thing I've found for VB is Mozilla ActiveX Control, but I couldn't get the DOM from it. IMO, Fx is good for only JaveScript guys, which (unfortunetly) I'm not.

Another problem I faced when trying to make an extension is that, we need to learn all those other 'gui' file formats. And there is no program to automate the task.

But, no other browser on earth can give me so much features (with extensions).

I guess I'll stick with Fx for personal use and may be someday it will beat Opera. :p
But for developing applications, I'll stick with IE.

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Originally Posted by iPrank

Fx is good for only JaveScript guys, which (unfortunetly) I'm not.

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Exactly, that's what I heard from some "Java guys", they like how FF shows error, line, source when debugging Javascript.

Yes, Fx was definitely not made to work with VB. It uses a different component model, for example, which is probably the reason you can't get the DOM.

But Gecko and all the other components of Mozilla are a development environment in their own right.

Yes. That's exactly my point.

Fx uses a completely different programming model. Here in VBF most of us are COM/.NET programmers. Many of us even don't know any other platforms.

What surprises me most is, Why WE (MS technology Application developers) are so exited about Firefox ?

• It is nothing but another browser.
• To Firefox developer commnity, we are simply end-users. Fx doesn't support our native deleveloping platform. (or is it only me ?) We can't use it in our apps.
• It will not help in our career (unless you are switching to non-MS or you are a web developer).
• Most likely we will not make any money (directly) from it.

How many of us are interested in learning JavaScript/Fx file-formats, only to write some cool extensions ? Specially when you are not web developer ? I'd rather invest that time to learn .NET.

For my 'user' part, Fx is a 'cool' thing. But for my 'learner/developer' part (if there is any :p) , it is useless.

It may come as somewhat of a surprise to you, or shock even, but not all developers use Microsoft technologies... and not all of those use VB, either.

Unlike Microsoft products, Firefox does not use any proprietary formats, the extensions are written in XUL (a simple application of XML, which is a basic knowledge all developers should have) and Javascript (ditto).

A browser will always present limited development scope unless you are using it for web development - that's what they're for...

And, lastly, software development need not be primarily about money.

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Originally Posted by Hack

I did a forum search on "FireFox" (and got 500 returns :sick: ), and read many of them. Every once in a while, I actually came across a post from someone that offered logical reasoning behind their opinion, but not very often.

By in large, most of what I read could be summed up into: FireFox is cool and IE blows.

I want something more concrete than that.

I would like to hear some tangible, real-world reasons why FireFox is a better browser than IE.

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Hack's original post...

Hack - I'm curious - have you been hugely swayed in one direction by all these posts?

Firefox certainly does get good press by many of these posts here (so it is cool). And the FF group certainly hates IE - and that bias makes it difficult to use them as a "double-blind-study-group".

Did IBM switching to FF make a big difference to you?

Have you had your MS cornbread this morning? ;)

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Originally Posted by penagate

It may come as somewhat of a surprise to you, or shock even,

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Well said. LOL :D

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Originally Posted by penagate

but not all developers use Microsoft technologies... and not all of those use VB, either.

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Yep. I know that.
Before we start another war, let me rephrase my question, :p

My question is, why MS Application (network or standalone) developers are so exited about Fx ? (I don't have any doubt/question about other developers)

Many of my friends never coded on anything except Windows, yet they are so exited as if Fx is the next big thing since 32bit PCs.

Most of them are working on MS platforms, others are doing MS certifications. They can't give any good reason why they like Fx as a 'developer'. The most common answer is "its cool man !". I guess it is only their 'user' part that is exited.

PS: I'm neither an IE-hater nor an IE-lover. Though I'm dating Fx now, I still love Opera deep inside my heart. ;)

As a developer who just downloaded it (to find out what the fuss was about), the only thing I really liked was the DOM Inspector.

As for everything else, it just seemed cosmentic. I did spend 5 minutes cursing VBF's server because I kept clicking "New Posts" and the screen wouldn't flicker. As a "set in his ways" IE developer/user, I expect to see the postback. :sick:

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Originally Posted by iPrank

What surprises me most is, Why WE (MS technology Application developers) are so exited about Firefox ?

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Call me a MS technology Application developer again, and I'll smack you...;)

In the end, for a end user, it's not how the app was made, but how it works for the user. It could have been written in Cobol for me, and I would still like it. JS, XUL and the Mozilla API is just other programming languages and technologies...in the end the prinsipp is the same, and the end user won't notice....



- ØØ -

I think from from reading most of the posts that FF renders pages a bit better but it also has a lot of toy features that makes everyone go "Oh FF is cool!". Maybe its psychological but I think FF is slower with all its toy features. I like IE and have used it for almost 10 years now. My kids have FF on there system and I tried it and I dont like it. too much crap, cant download with a progres meter or tell it to go where I want without making some setting change. It appears to be nothing more then a fad that is slowing down.

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Originally Posted by NoteMe

Call me a MS technology Application developer again, and I'll smack you...;)

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Newsflash: NoteMe is an MS technology Application developer

* iPrank ducks under table *

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Originally Posted by NoteMe

In the end, for a end user, it's not how the app was made, but how it works for the user. It could have been written in Cobol for me, and I would still like it. JS, XUL and the Mozilla API is just other programming languages and technologies...in the end the prinsipp is the same, and the end user won't notice....

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Point noted. Thanks. :)

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Originally Posted by sevenhalo

As a developer who just downloaded it (to find out what the fuss was about), the only thing I really liked was the DOM Inspector.

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Didn't get the developer toolbar, then?

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As for everything else, it just seemed cosmentic. I did spend 5 minutes cursing VBF's server because I kept clicking "New Posts" and the screen wouldn't flicker. As a "set in his ways" IE developer/user, I expect to see the postback. :sick:

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You mean, you WANT your browser to be slow? ;)

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My question is, why MS Application (network or standalone) developers are so exited about Fx ?

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Is there something special about MS developers? Are they somehow a group completely cut off from the rest?
Although I think you're right that it's mostly the end user in them that's excited, I still see no reason not to be excited about a new technology, just because it's not by the same company that made the technologies you currently work with.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

I think from from reading most of the posts that FF renders pages a bit better but it also has a lot of toy features that makes everyone go "Oh FF is cool!".

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Wrong. Firefox has practically nothing in this regard, unless you explicitely install it.

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Maybe its psychological but I think FF is slower with all its toy features.

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I think all browser speed issues are psychological. I have never experienced any relevant difference in browser speeds among all browsers I've used. Excluding versions, that means 7.

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I like IE and have used it for almost 10 years now. My kids have FF on there system and I tried it and I dont like it. too much crap,

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Like?

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cant download with a progres meter

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Um ... not sure right now, but I believe there's a progress meter by default in the download manager. It also displays the average completion percentage of all downloading files in the taskbar, and gives you a notification when it's done.

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or tell it to go where I want without making some setting change.

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Best 30 seconds you'll ever have invested in your life ;)

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It appears to be nothing more then a fad that is slowing down.

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I think you are very wrong about this.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

My kids have FF on there system and I tried it and I dont like it. too much crap, cant download with a progres meter or tell it to go where I want without making some setting change.

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It sounds like they have got options/extensions that you don't like... try a vanilla installation, and have a quick play in the options.

"Didn't get the developer toolbar, then?"
Must not have? I could have swore that I checked it.

You mean, you WANT your browser to be slow?;)
It didn't seem faster. It almost seemed like they "masked" it to look faster by having everything happen prerender and not update the screen until it was done.

That's not technical fact, just observations I made while I was messing around with it.

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Originally Posted by sevenhalo

"Didn't get the developer toolbar, then?"
Must not have? I could have swore that I checked it.

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No, you checked "developer tools", which gives you the DOM inspector and JS console. I'm referring to the Developer Toolbar, which is an extension. You need to get it from the Firefox extension site.

I a m doing a reinstall on one of their systems today so I may DL'd it and see on a clean install.

And while you're at it, make different accounts for you and your kids, so that their settings and extensions don't affect your install.

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

Is there something special about MS developers? Are they somehow a group completely cut off from the rest?

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I mean, in which platform I (or many of us) are most comfortable.
Most of CS graduates learned ASM in college, but will you want to develop in it ?

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

Although I think you're right that it's mostly the end user in them that's excited, I still see no reason not to be excited about a new technology, just because it's not by the same company that made the technologies you currently work with.

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I guess I've got my answer. Thanks.

I'm not against non-MS technology. Right now I'm learning JSP (as well as .NET). I was just curious. :)

[Off Topic]
Speed Issue:
Opera is faster than both IE and Fx. It is because, Opera starts rendering even when part of the page is being downloaded. If you have a network monitor, you may have noticed that.
[/Off Topic]

RobDog - Download Manager = Ctrl+J ;)

Try it, you'll like it, it's not great but it's much better than IE's multiple download dialogs ;)

I think you can set Fx to render HTML as it downloads too, it is a setting somewhere in about:config. it looks a bit odd though.

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Originally Posted by iPrank

Opera is faster than both IE and Fx. It is because, Opera starts rendering even when part of the page is being downloaded.

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IE and Gecko do progressive rendering too (unless it's styled XML in Gecko) - Opera is quite simply faster. I'd love to see some of their code.

Thanks. :thumb: I didn't know that.

Edit: Another question, What is the shortcut key for browsing HomePage in Fx ?

Firefox Keyboard Shortcuts

Homepage is Alt+Home :)

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

IE and Gecko do progressive rendering too (unless it's styled XML in Gecko) - Opera is quite simply faster. I'd love to see some of their code.

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They have some interesting job openings now if you care to move to Norway or maybe Sweden...;)

Although that's not very far away, I don't think I will.

One thing I want to bring up about Firefox: none other browser has as large community support as Firefox does. This is thanks to open source: everyone who wants can come in. Even those who can't do programming. Both Opera and IE are very distant: they can't allow anyone to contribute and support this or give recognition. Firefox allows this by its basic nature. There is this mood: "anyone can help, anyone can be a part of the community, everyone can work for the same goal".

My gf interrupted writing of this message.

I just read up on Opera 9. It will add BitTorent as well as 9 new widgets. And it said in the article that they will encourage people to write their own widgets. Anyone heard anything about this? Do you think it in the end will be like Fx extensions? Sounds interesting to me. If they do, and they fix 2-3 small annoyances...I will maybe be interesting to do a switch.




- ØØ -

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Originally Posted by NoteMe

I just read up on Opera 9. It will add BitTorent as well as 9 new widgets. And it said in the article that they will encourage people to write their own widgets. Anyone heard anything about this? Do you think it in the end will be like Fx extensions? Sounds interesting to me. If they do, and they fix 2-3 small annoyances...I will maybe be interesting to do a switch.

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So - let me see if I understand here...

You would possibly be willing to drop FF for Opera 9 because of 9 widgets.

Is that right?

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Originally Posted by szlamany

So - let me see if I understand here...

You would possibly be willing to drop FF for Opera 9 because of 9 widgets.

Is that right?

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That was not I said...but if they can encourage people to make more widgets..then there must be some kind of interface to make them. LIke the XUl, JS interface Fx has. Then Fx is not the only browser where users can make extensions. Hence the browser might get pretty usefull after a while. I wouldn't mind porting the vBulletin extension to Opera. After all, I should support technology from my own country..:D:D

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Originally Posted by CornedBee

Although that's not very far away, I don't think I will.

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You know you want to..:)

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Originally Posted by NoteMe

- More secure.
- Regular updates.
- Extension so you can make it fit your hands perfectly.
- Themes so you can make it look like you want (small, big, funny, stylish).
- Faster renderer.
- Compatible with many more web standards.
- Much faster controlls (list boxes and so on)
- Quick bookmarks (I can just write "g hello world" in the address bar, and it will search google for "hello world", or just type v, and it will go to VBForums.com)
- del.icio.us extension, that makes me able to have all the same bookmarks at work in what ever OS I use, as well as my machines home and my laptop.
- Mine, Canders, and Nebs wonderfull vBulletin extension.
- And Tabs you can costumize like you want.

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This was the first post in the thread to Hack's original question - Noteme's enthusiatic applause...

Apparently the addition of 9 widgets (whatever the heck they are) to Opera 9 will alter Noteme's opinion greatly - pull him to the other side.

I believe that's what RobDog meant...

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

It appears to be nothing more then a fad that is slowing down.

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So the size of the community and the wiz-bang factor mean absolutely nothing. To a large IT department it's the "stay" factor that matters.

Correct, lets see what happens when IE 7 comes out in ~6 months. IE has the greatest staying power of all time! :thumb: :D

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Originally Posted by szlamany

This was the first post in the thread to Hack's original question - Noteme's enthusiatic applause...

Apparently the addition of 9 widgets (whatever the heck they are) to Opera 9 will alter Noteme's opinion greatly - pull him to the other side.

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I guess you forgot to read the first post...

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Originally Posted by Hack

I would like to hear some tangible, real-world reasons why FireFox is a better browser than IE.

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Fx compared to IE...;) Never was Opera put on test..;) I like opera. But as I said, no extension, and a few minor anoyanses (SP?) have made me a Fx user in stead of Opera. Like one of the anoyanses is that I in IE and Fx can after I have written this post just pres TAB and then Enter...and I will post the post without touching the mouse. That is not so easy in Opera for some odd reason.

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

Correct, lets see what happens when IE 7 comes out in ~6 months. IE has the greatest staying power of all time! :thumb: :D

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They are just ripping off ideas from Fx and Opera...no new hot stuff is comming, and the web standards are way behind. But by comming out with a new version they will for sure manage to hold the big user group they have, but don't think they will get many users back.



- ØØ -

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Originally Posted by RobDog888

Correct, lets see what happens when IE 7 comes out in ~6 months. IE has the greatest staying power of all time! :thumb: :D

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On the technical front, IE 7, so far, is a regression from IE 6. Even if I was an IE user I wouldn't be impressed in the least. On the other hand, Firefox has improved hugely since the 1.0 release, which was the first I ever used. That for me is their biggest forté - the speed at which bug fixes and new features are rolled out.

What I like about the Download Manager is that you can open the file that you downloaded as soon as it downloads. The default is to download to the desktop, but that can be changed.

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Originally Posted by penagate

On the technical front, IE 7, so far, is a regression from IE 6.

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Um ... it's a beta. From all I've heard, it's a great improvement in various areas.


NoteMe: it's "annoyances".

Get the IE Beta 2 Preview download just realeased a few days ago.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/ie7/default.mspx

Tabbed browsing, RSS feeds, improved security, toolbar search etc. :thumb: