Re: Secret Jails and Torture
Embedded reporters are far from manipulated by the military. If that was the case - Kevin Sites wouldn't have released the video of the Marine shooting the wounded guy in the Mosque. Or the Fox guy release the video of Marines shooting the "unarmed" man who was wounded and trying to crawl across the street. Wasn't until later that the rest of the video was released showing the grenade the "unarmed" guy was crawling towards.
It's totally believable that 5k civilians were killed in Fallujah. But, let's not leave out the makeshift jail basements where scores of tortured and executed Iraqi's were found. Only five were found alive and were treated and evacuated by the evil Americans. Not to mention the entire families found shot and killed so their houses could be used to stage attacks against American soldiers.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
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Originally Posted by moeur
well I'm glad this agreement satisfies you and perhaps others like you. It really doesn't mean too much since what constitutes "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" is not spelled out in the agreement. The whole purpose of the agreement (besides gaining political points for McCain in his bid for the 2008 presidental nomination) is to appease the hand wringers. How quickly they forgot 9/11.
I agree with the first sentence. I conditionally agree with the second sentence, though I think the wording is inappropriate. Into the crowd that is dismissed as hand-wringers go all people with strong principled stands that it is better die for their beliefs than to accepts torture. This would include Ghandi and Jesus. I don't think Bush is better than either one, but then again, I don't think Bush is better than cabbage either, so that's not saying anything.
I don't understand the last sentence. What was forgotten about 9/11? American values? Miscommunication? Bad people exist? Good people exist? What? I can't see how the events of 9/11 mean that America must be allowed to torture people.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
One of the main reasons 9/11 was permitted to happen in the first place was that the tools the CIA needed to combat terrorism were taken away from them.
Now, don't think that I am advocating that the CIA be allowed to go around and torture anyone they please, but cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment should still be tools that they can use.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
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Into the crowd that is dismissed as hand-wringers go all people with strong principled stands that it is better die for their beliefs than to accepts torture.
No, these people are pretty rare so I don't think McCain is too concerned about getting their votes. The "Hand-Wringers" are much more common, they are more concerned with what other people are going to think about them than any sort of deeper values.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
They are only rare if WE don't try to be them. However, I don't think they are nearly as rare as you think. I still believe that Americans will do the right thing if that right thing is clear. Just look at the fourth plane.
There are plenty of people out there who take a stand on principle. If they are not evident in politics, it's because it is bread out of them.
The tool the CIA needed was communication. The signs were there, the communication was not. We did not need to give up any liberties, or violate the principles of decency to which we all subscribe to have prevented 9/11. All that was needed is that certain people needed to be able to communicate, and think clearly. That ability wasn't there, but the history of the world shows that it never IS there.
For every war that this country has ever gotten into, the first step was generally to weed out a large number of officers who were effective in a peacetime army, but not in a wartime army. This has been even more true for England. The same is true for most other endeavors of this nature. The culture builds up for dealing effectively with one situation, then the situation changes, and the culture has to respond. It will. Give it time. But we shouldn't abandon our principles to get there.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
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Originally Posted by moeur
He says that now that he is trying to make political points, but soon after he was released he admitted that it did work on him.
I have thought it through; a lot. During times of war I give more leeway to the interrogators. I'd rather see one enemy tortured than one of ours killed.
From an interview I heard of McCain, he said he named names after being tortured, but it was names a football players from an NFL team.
I mean it's so easy to make crap up, and there really it is very hard for an interrogator to know if the information is legit. Because even if he can tell if someone is scincere about the information they are giving, they might be fed a lie themselves. One of the tactics of war is sending "doomed spies" to the enemy. Bascially spies you fed bad information to, and send to the enemy to "unwittingly" reveal that info.
Of course thats just putting aside from the fact that the practice is unethical to begin with.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
Yes, several of the tools missing dealt with communication. One of the roadblocks to better communication was what is called by some as the Gorelick wall. See the following:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccart...0404190849.asp
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110004956
This impediment was removed with the patriot act which is scheduled to expire at the end of the year, thanks to some hand-wringers. We’ll be right back where we started before 911 treating terrorism as a legal issue rather than a military one.
Other roadblocks were put in front of the intelligence agencies after the Church Committee investigations of 1975. These included restrictions on whom the agencies could work with to gather information.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
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Moeur
the U.S. Army openly manipulates the media
it's called: embedded reporting.
I was going to let this one go, but the more I think about it the more stupid it sounds.
So, putting reporters on the front line so that they can actually witness events as they unfold is manipulation of the media? But calling in Al-Jazeera to photograph dead people, call them civilians, and tell the reporters that the evil Americans slaughtered them is not media manipulation?
Get real.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Yes, several of the tools missing dealt with communication. One of the roadblocks to better communication was what is called by some as the Gorelick wall. See the following:
http://www.nationalreview.com/mccart...0404190849.asp
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110004956
This impediment was removed with the patriot act which is scheduled to expire at the end of the year, thanks to some hand-wringers. We’ll be right back where we started before 911 treating terrorism as a legal issue rather than a military one.
Other roadblocks were put in front of the intelligence agencies after the Church Committee investigations of 1975. These included restrictions on whom the agencies could work with to gather information.
Only a few parts of the Patriot Act have sunset provisions. The rest are law until actively rescinded.
We have a representative who is a very vocal opponent of the Patriot Act, and always has been. If you know anything about the state of Idaho, you will realize that the chances of us ever electing anybody far enough left to be considered even a moderate conservative are slim to none. Not exactly the type of person I thought you meant.
Having said that, I don't believe this representative is characterized as either liberal or conservative. He's republican, but he's different....in sooooo many ways.
Re: Secret Jails and Torture
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
I was going to let this one go, but the more I think about it the more stupid it sounds.
So, putting reporters on the front line so that they can actually witness events as they unfold is manipulation of the media? But calling in Al-Jazeera to photograph dead people, call them civilians, and tell the reporters that the evil Americans slaughtered them is not media manipulation?
Get real.
I agree. Freezing out the media is bad, embedding has a long and distinguished history throughout America's wars. We may not have called it embedding, but the idea was the same. Reporters who are out with the line soldiers see a different kind of a war. They have no more understanding of large-scale strategy than do any of the soldiers, but they have a great understanding of the small-scale tactical issues facing the soldiers.
