i have NO clue where to start and stop based on what was said..
so if anyone want their post replied by me please let me know
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i have NO clue where to start and stop based on what was said..
so if anyone want their post replied by me please let me know
I realize you are saying this to Kedaman, but I have found your statement to be VERY true here. The Internet in general is complex. But the we can all communicate with each other. But that doesn't mean we will understad each other. For example, we missing some of the other elements in a conversation. (Voice stress, body language etc..) These are used in conjuction to explain somethng that may not make sense to another without these qulities. Example. I say this Fish was HUGE. You read it and your thinking HUGE as 50 feet, when I am only saying it to be 4 feet. But if you were here in person, I could SHOW you with my gestures.Quote:
Gen-X - I have nothing against you, honestly. The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other. When either of us say something the other takes it completely the wrong way (ie you thinking I am nervous or upset) and both of us end up frustrated at the others apparent innability to see what we are saying.
My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier. Of course you can get SOME tidbits here and there, but you will NEVER get the full picture of what another person is talking about.
Now do you understand where I am comming from Gen-X ?
Knight
Ahhh, you two kissed and made up.. how sweet.. LOL
Hey KV, I do understand.. what finger am I holding up? Hahahahahaha
I'm just raggin ya... Yes, I do understand what KV is saying and that is soooooo true.. I communicate with people every day, and I have noticed one fact. If you are busy, and don't have time to talk, sometimes the other person takes it the wrong way thinking your pissed off at him. When your REALLY not. Your just busy and don't have time to talk. Simple ehh? heh.. not as simple as you might think. It's rough trying to explain that "No.... I wasn't pissed, I just had some work I had to do... nothing meant by it."
So, KV, keep up the good work, I may not beleive what you beleive, (Not sure I even know what I beleive.. LOL) but I think your intentions are good and hope it works out. ;)
EBG
Harry
I think that is where I differ from other people. To me a "guess" is to collect as much information as you have and to make an educated assessment on what the answer is.Quote:
you just have to sort of... guess
Now I know "educated assessment" is a fancy way of saying "guess" but for other people "guessing" is as you said... a gut-feeling or a hunch and not something based on trying to work out what the answer could be.
Kedaman
Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.Quote:
Gen-X, If you get frustrated about that somone believes there is a God, then you have a big problem, because there always will be
When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.
I think you were like I was earlier. We stated something and because we believed in it we kind of gave it more credibility than just being our opinion. Way, way back in the beginning when you first stated your belief you stated it in such a way that made it sound like it was absolute and definate (something I do a lot of unfortunately :( ) and so from then on I took that to be your belief.Quote:
Now i have never stated God's existance as a fact. I hope that removed some of your frustration
But now I am of the understanding it is your opinion that God must exists and that you don't really have anything other than what convinced yourself that this is true. :)
It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?Quote:
Now i hope i've bringed you some insights of how i think.
Thats because he isn't the one they are directed at ;)Quote:
Some people, like Harry see all of our intentions
That I most definately agree with.Quote:
It's the toughts and ideas that don't pass trough our mental filters.
Knight Vision
That is what I was trying to put across to you when I said I was not attacking you. Though the words themselves would have came out like I was trying to tear you down if you could have heard those words spoken you would have heard the calm inquisitory nature of someone who breaks things down to determine their validity. If they are incapable of being broken down then they can withstand scrutiny.Quote:
but I have found your statement to be VERY true here
It was a questioning and debating nature and not an attacking one... but as you so rightly pointed out it gets terribly lost on here.
I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on cross-references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.Quote:
My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.
It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it ;)
This is why I go on about quite a few things. Those who believe in the Bible believe in the fact that "their" God is the one that created the universe and everything in it. That would mean every other person who beleived in a different God that created the universe would have to be wrong in your eyes and that kind of xenophobic seperatism is what I truely dislike most about religions.
Does that make sense to you KV? Can you see where it is I am coming from on this? I truely have humanity's best interests at heart in my purpose for discussing it... I can't help but feeling those of a specific religion only have "their" people best at heart :(
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KV - My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.
Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too. Remember, there are multiple languages on the net and we all don't see things the same way. That's all I was saying. Remember, WARS have been started over religion and that is without the Internet.. LOLQuote:
Gen-X - I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.
I agree with you saying it's a Guide to life. But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing. ;)Quote:
Gen-X - It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it.
Knight Vision
Knight Vision
Excuse my ignorance then but if the Bible does not put across all that it is meant to, why would God have made it the only PHYSICAL source of his direction?Quote:
Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too
Surely he would have chosen the most succinct and most clear method of telling his people how he wanted them to live. If he then placed them in a medium that left itself open to such large diversity in meaning and understanding it seems it would CREATE more problems than solve them.
Somehow I cannot see the creator of the universe who knows all and sees all willingly directing the creation of a book that would not convey what he wanted.
I guess the rhetoric to that is "Thats why you go to church and talk with other people"... But that puts humans into the mix and we all know humans are even worse than the written word when it comes to hidden meanings, ulterior motives and just plain human error.
Who ever said anything about just browsing its pages? Most of the people who have commented on it in here have read the SPECIFIC verses, looked at the surrounding context and then made direct statements about what was written... no browsing went on at all.Quote:
But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing.
Even a technical manual you can read a specific section and its context and be able to comment specifically on it because ALL the context is correct... not just a portion.
For instance.....
In Genesis it says God took 6 days to create the universe. Now theologists use the excuse "Ah but a day doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period" and yet elsewhere in the Bible when God told man to make the Ark of the Covenant he said to make it X cubits wide and Y cubits long... he was VERY precise.
Why then would God dictate words such as "day" which have SPECIFIC meaning to the people he was telling it to and then really mean a different scale of units? If this were the case would have said it took 6 "very long but undetermined periods of time" to create the universe.
It is that kind of contradiction that can be read about, studied and then presented in a logical manner.
Unforutnately all the answers or explainations to this are NOT logical and most of them try to find ways to AVOID this glaring fault and still maintain their beliefs. That is where the problem comes in in my honest and humble opinion... we don't talk on level playing fields, one side would never admit a flaw even if they did see it... because that would mean they could no longer place 100% credibility in that which they have built their life around.
So their motives reveals the reasons they think the way they do. My motive is just to find the truth... and if it states something that is completely without flaw I will agree with it completely.
Gen-X
You feel more comfortable with a Christian or Muslim, than me? Just because they have more flawed beliefs? And yet you try to remove them, one by one, and if you succeed, you will just feel more uncofortable. I have to ask for your motives again.Quote:
Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.
When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.
Not exactly, maybe but that's not the usual word "creator" we would think about, since the creation were talking about is a bit difficult to explain in detail.Quote:
It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?
There is really no useful information to base an educated guess on though. Gen-X, you often say that the lack of information means something, but I don't see it like that. I don't presume to make assumptions about the nature of God.
Also, I would like to say that I am really not a member of any specific religion. I don't read religious material, or at least I don't go out of my way to do so. I am not a good example of someone with standard, well documented religious beliefs.