What really happens in the end?

I doubt the Ideas actually true anyway, but this is what happens.

as you become less concious your perception of time changes (becuase you've got your eyes shut or they die you can't see anything and just before you die you're effectivly asllep)

Tn the real world you percieve a minute as lasting about a minute, when you dream this isn't true, it has been shown that a dream that seems to you to last about half an hour only lasts a about a minute in real time.

If we extrapolate this Idea we can say that the less concious you are (ie the closer to death you are) the longer you percieve time (ie when your awake a second seems like a second, when you're halfway between awake and dead it seems to last 10 seconds, when you're 3/4 dead it seems to last 100 seconds.

so in the time you're percieving you never reach the point in real time when you're actually dead. (if you want an analogy sy you're runnin towards a line, when you're 100m away from the line you're running at 10 m/s when you're 50m from the line you run at 50 m/s, 10m from the line 1 m/s etc (the speed you are running is a tenth of the distance to the line per second) if you keep doing this you will never actually reach the line because as you get close to the line you are going so slowly that you are hardly moving at all)

so although in real time you die you never percieve yourself as dying because your peception of time slows down and you never get to that point.

then if we stick a nice dream on top of that that's sam's definition of heaven.

In that case, it must suck to be in a coma... Even if you wake up after a few months, it must feel like centuries!

it's a glitch in the matrix.
i thought everyone knew this...

dvst8

I'm not going to bother saying much about the honeybee thing. I just think it's rude and we can argue all year but I will still object to what you said Gen-X.


I stuck a CD on yesterday, pressed random, and (without looking I should add) thought to myself "Right that's gonna be track 1 then" and it was. I didn't put it down to anything more than coincidence though. 12 tracks on the CD, one CD in the stereo.

Déjà vu

It’s very interesting. My theory on the matter is much different to Sam’s. I think you have a vision in a dream that is a little taste of your fate. Some say you “pick up the vibration”. Things like this often happen to me where I have a dream that contains a person I haven’t seen for a long time and a few days later I see them, “I picked up their vibration”. Don’t take my word for it, read this small letter: http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/Alfred.B...s4/lett314.htm

Evidence for OBEs

Sam looked at the links and couldn’t find evidence, why am I not surprised? Any sceptic would say the same thing. I’m no longer going to direct him to places for evidence because I think no matter what I say he will still say, “I couldn’t find any evidence”. Sam, if you really want evidence then stop asking me for it and start looking! When I heard about OBEs I didn’t keep asking, “Show me some evidence”, I went in search for it. I bought books, I visited web pages, I read peoples’ experiences and letters and then read techniques. When I thought I was ready I tried my technique and didn’t give in when I had a failed attempt. It only took me 5 attempts before I had my first conscious OBE but it only lasted around 10 seconds because everything was new to me and I was a little reluctant to stay in the Astral. So if anybody wants evidence start looking, its there.

Also Sam, I have had OBEs many times without entering a state of trance or doing any meditation. Meditation is done because it makes you relaxed and if you’re not relaxed it’s hard to imagine your consciousness anywhere else but where your physical body is. It is however possible to have an OBE without meditation.


[Edited by rino_2 on 08-14-2000 at 04:15 PM]

Anybody
When I first noticed this Thread, I was interested in hearing about what people believe on this subject. I was especially hoping to hear from people with beliefs other than those of mainstream Christian theology. I am still hoping for more Posts pertinent to the original subject. How about it guys & girls!??

Rino_2
It looks to me as though you believe in the continued existence of your soul in the hereafter. This is a very comforting belief, shared by many others. It obviously implies that when you die, your soul can continue to exist independently of your decomposing body. This belief is usually based on faith.

Your attitude and opinions suggest to me that you think your faith needs some help. Hence, you started using the term consciousness instead of soul, and started to believe that it is independent of the physical body before death. This causes you to make scientific statements not supported by any evidence.

Note that true faith does not require evidence. It is often defined as belief in concepts not supported by evidence. Believing without evidence is considered admirable by many people.

If you said something like: "I believe in the hereafter and that my soul is independent of my physical body," there are very few people who would tell you that you are wrong. I certainly would not.

When you say "....the consciousness isn't a part of the brain but actually an external being ...... Scientist are proving that ..... ", you are no longer dealing with theology, religion, faith, et cetera. You are moving into the subject matter of mainstream science, where people expect evidence and the ability to repeat experiments under controlled conditions. It is deceptive to use the word "Scientist" when you are not referring to a mainstream physicist, chemist, et cetera.

When I asked if you knew of any scientific support, you gave me a list of sites, most of which I visited. None had anything to do with a scientific approach to OBE.

I already stated that telling of your personal experiences is not evidence. It is "Preaching to the choir." If I thought I was clairvoyant, I would not consider it evidence to say "I predicted that Event-X would happen, and it did happen two days later!". It would certainly convince me that I was clairvoyant (if it happened), but I would not consider it evidence to anybody else.

Why not turn to ministers, books on religion, et cetera to support your faith, rather than looking for support from science?

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Gen-X said: Quote for me in the Bible the definition of what Satan looks like and what happened to him?

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(NKJV) Isaiah 14:12 " How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [How] you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

(NKJV) 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

That's the best I could find. You quote for me in the bible where Satan has the red suit and pitch fork. I'm not asking for horn and tail (which may be in the below Rev reference).

The moral of the story:
(NKJV) 1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Just in case you need a bible reference that "devil" = "satan".

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is [the] Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

I think the horned omage of the devil comes from some pagan god who was a goat with some human like qualities and god like powers, christians turned him into satan because they didn't like pagans much.

VirtuallyVB

Sam the man.. you have that spot on. The depiction of Satan came from the middle centuries when Christianity was attempting to wipe out the last of Paganism. As well as moving Christmas to co-inside with Samhein (sp?) to put a dampener on the Pagan practices they also used all of their holy symbols (pentagram being one of them) and made them the symbols of their "Lucifer", adding horns and a tail, making him absolutely evil and ugly.

It was a typical ploy to represent God in a halo of light with angelic wings all nice and fluffy like the clouds and then paint Satan as being big and horrible, buring and hissing.... Who in their right mind would purposely pick something so horrible over something so wholesome?


But here is a real corker for you VVB... it is something that I was told and I fully admit I cannot confirm it but in saying it a certain logical "snap" really put it into perspective.

All your definitions of Lucifer that you quoted were in the New Testament right?? All of this "cast out of heaven" and "weakened the nations" business?

Lucifer was actually God's Angel whose purpose was to tempt man... to lure him from God's path. He was vigilant in his job and sought to beguile man whenever he could in the servitude of God.

Man in its infinate wisdom decided that any "Angel" who did such nasty and deceiptful things like that couldn't POSSIBLY be doing it for God and so they developed the whole "cast out of heaven" business on their own.

As for the "weakened the nations"... of course he did, it was his job!!!

This means that Lucifer remains an Angel, with white wings and a halo, and has nothing to do with the middle-age reconstruction through a newly created and OBVIOUSLY politically correct testament because the first one didn't quite fit the needs they had.

The fact you cannot find ANY reference anywhere to this visage we gave him (or the reasons why they moved Christmas and added a few months to the calendar) more and more supports the fact that the new testament was a fabrication of man, done at a point in time when books were controlled ONLY by the church and very few could read so who would know what got changed.

Think about it for a while :)

OBVIOUSLY THE BIBLE CAN BE USED TO MAN'S SELFISH DESIRE TO CONTROL OTHERS

Stop using knives to cut your food because knives can also be used to kill people.

I thought this point was made clear in past threads.

Also, there is no command in the bible to celebrate Christmas. You are only exposing the falacies you have had about Christianity. This reminds me of the quote that someone here posted..."too bad no one has ever tried Christianity". If I were you, I'd apply your argument to the serpent tempting with the apple (which I think the bible says "fruit") but the fruit was the "good looking benefit" as presented by the devil. Even so, I'd check those terms for a real study.

Gen-X, you asked what the bible says about Satan and I showed you. Show me where the bible says red suit and pitch fork. There are so many misconceptions about what is Christianity. Many people who claim to be Christians are not what Christ (Jesus) would call a Christian. Can you see that? I hope that Jesus will call me a Christian. And technically, Jesus may not be interested in the title "Christian"; "They were first called Christians at Antioch". That is why there is a new cult that wants to be called "Disciples". My real hope is that Jesus will say (witness) to the Father that I am "with" Jesus.

Don't say, "Show me 'A'." and then when I show you 'A', don't say, "The fact you cannot find ANY reference anywhere to 'B'..."
That is not a sincere search for truth

The way I understand it, Lucifer was a high rank angel of God who desired to be "like" the Most High. Strange that Lucifer wouldn't desire to be better or more powerfull (instead of "like") the Most High. Lucifer was tolerated to "prove" his case (as in the book of Job), but ultimately was banished from heaven to earth where he thought he'd have dominion over the earth (his own kingdom). God gave Lucifer the shaft again when God told man that man would have dominion over the earth. Presently Lucifer tries to turn man away from God (but once that is achieved, Lucifer doesn't "care" for that man--so watch out for inner circles of witchcraft--beat me up on this) while tempting us with things that appear good (Angel of Light appearance stuff). Yes, there is more to this, but I'll leave you in "the present".

[Edited by VirtuallyVB on 08-16-2000 at 12:14 PM]

VVB

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Also, there is no command in the bible to celebrate Christmas. You are only exposing the falacies you have had about Christianity

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And you my friend are only exposing the falacies you have about me ;)

At midnight on the 24th of December each year, every Catholic church in every city of the world fills with people to celebrate "midnight mass". They don't go becaue they "feel" like going... they do it because they believe they are commanded to go.

In the middle of the frikken week, on a Wednesday if the 25th of December happens to fall on that day, all good little baptists and every other "Christian" person, goes to church to celebrate Christ-Mass.

I know this because I had to actually do it, and I watched it and I saw it.... I would ask that you don't suggest they are falacies that I have because I was actually there my friend.

Now America might be different... we all know they are over the top on everything else and go to the extremes of what most people would call "normal", but I didn't think it was that much different to the rest of the world.

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too bad no one has ever tried Christianity

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Been there, done that, saw how everyone "used" it and realised why they all did it. Noticed how lividly angry they got when they were asked questions they couldn't answer and had to listen for several years about all their self-centred and warped views of the world.

I saw the types of people it bred, and how they were brainwashed at birth.... and didn't like one bit of it.

I would ask you to try and become a Bhuddist, or a Mueslim or even a Scientologist... but somehow I don't think you would be willing to actually do what you would tell others to do in trying Christianity... Doesn't that make you a hypocrite?

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Gen-X, you asked what the bible says about Satan and I showed you. Show me where the bible says red suit and pitch fork

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I told you (but obviously your reading ability isn't as good as I thought it was) that there is no metnion of the red suit and pitch fork... I TOLD you it was all contstructed!!!!

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The depiction of Satan came from the middle centuries when Christianity was attempting to wipe out the last of Paganism

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Did you not read this? or did you just skim over it?

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That is not a sincere search for truth

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I said "Show me A & B", you say "Here is A, YOU show me B", I say "See there is only A, B doesn't exist, yet that is how people see him... as B"

I believe in missing what I said above you have incorrectly taken the context.

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The way I understand it

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And that seems to be where our problems start. You yourself said that Lucifer tempted us with things that appear good... That was just JOB and he did it well. It was only the modern (pre-1100AD) creation of the New Testament that introduced Lucifer as a bad guy.

I would suggest you go read your original texts... go back BEFORE the new testament and read them again and you might actually find the truth.

I have to admit I dislike the way Christians cling to the New Testament as if it makes the horrors of the old one (like stoning wives for harming their husbands testicles) go away.