dvst8 a bit previous there son
1. I do not believe god is bound by the "christian bible", this is an interpretation by a group of power mongers in the early AD. Based on stories cobbled together from previous civilisations.
2. I do not believe that life has no importance, no one has yet got onto the energy caren't be destroyed only transferred arguement yet.
3. I believe it is the height of arrogance to suggest that Man is the only civilisation in the Universe. Read Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawkins et al to review the arguement on this.
Kedaman,
Gen-X when he/she has disagreed with my opinion, has appeared ready to debate the issue where as yet appear to be pretty much stuck to your opinions.
You do border on convincing me that you are sincere (once in a while)
Re: #1
We aren't saying "suffer" as if it's a deficiency, you are saying "suffer". Perhaps your definition of perfect differs from the bible's. I don't know how the bible defines "perfect", but apparently you do. Please enlighten me.
I don't think that creation was "very good" (as in Genesis 1:31) or the way God is showing his Glory, but that's because my finite mind doesn't like the way things are playing out. A child loves candy because it is "very good". A parent knows that candy causes cavities. Who defines what is very good? A little advice: That's why you had better find out what your Creator requires of you.
I think "perfect", as you may define it, would require no attribute of God to be discussed because it would be a limited view. Limited is less than perfect, right? In Revelations, it speaks of Angels worshipping God constantly and that is not enough. You are trying to grasp infinity with a finite mind.
Re: #2
Did the bible say that the son is thrown into jail? I think you will see that if the father is thrown into jail, that the son will suffer because he has lost a "bread-winner". No Pun Dude.
I am not trying to "twist" things, but I knew you would say that I did, so I jokingly asked if you liked my twist. I'm trying to provide you answers, although I owe you none.
Re: #3
I'll go one further (although many, if not all Pastors, will disagree with me).
I say God is responsible for it all. But that makes us robots. We don't like that (right, dvst8?). I call it a will, but not a free will (deep thread potential). So from my point of view, I have to trust God. Indulge me for a moment: Others will be judged on the knowledge they have been given. (Can you say that you measure up to your standard?)
I'd probably be God if I knew what the punishment is. I can't answer that one for you today (if ever). Let's say someone does me a wrong, then becomes "saved"; what punishment was there for him? Where is the justice? But I am not the judge. Besides, by my belief, if this person got saved, then Jesus paid for his punishment and imputed His righteousness upon him. You're going to hate the next statement. Thank God this is so, because I have wronged others and I "hope" (that's a faith thing) that I am saved. Although the bible does speak of assurance.
You also misuse evidence and proof. But that's just more carelessness that won't help you in your search.
Re: #4
Yes, that is my hypothesis (on their own works). Did/Can you find such a person to entertain this line of reasoning? By my belief, the only way we would be righteous to deserve this is by Jesus's substitution. Not on our own works.
You're not going to like this one:
Nah, I'll save that for a free will thread.
kb244...additional humour
Definition of a religous war
"Two people argueing over whose invisible friend is the best"
To all others:
If the Christian bible is to be considered as infalliable, that would mean the Koran etc are incorrect. Very much an egocentric viewpoint.
Are you saying that god cannot exist outside the mythology which exists in the bible.
Does the fact that Jesus expelled the money leaders from the temple, mean that US tele evanglists should also be expelled.
RE: Swine; Then perhaps you have another reason to "hate" the Bible. (verse 6)
Matthew 7
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you. 7 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' 24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it." 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
Gen-X, When Have I Said, "YOU ARE INSANE!"?
Apparently you have been speaking about me. Show me so that I may apologize.
This is getting out of control
I think this situation is getting way out of control now. I had decide to step out of this thread that I probably shouldnt have started. It seem that it was going nowhere for either side. I simple meant this thread to be used to see what exactly they had a problem with in the bible. I admit that my initial post was a bit over zealous. Yes I am a believer. However I dont hold anything or judge against those that aren't, it's not my place to judge. Somewhere along the line this seem to become more of retaliation than a discussion. If I caused this I appoligize. All I can say from what I have seen is that neither side is really proving its point. I believe in science and from what it sounds to me everyone seems to agree that its not always right. This is not to say science is wrong but there is alot that con't be explain or understood. Where this is god or that our understanding is not up to par yet is irelevent now. I wish to appoligize to gen for snapping back and retaliating. Obviously our opinion differ but I hope that this wont be carried into other discussions and that we can atleast "play nice". Kenda, no offence but I'm not exactly sure what your points are but I appreciate your responses.
I guess what I am trying to say is my intent was not to draw lines and insult others but to find what people had a problem with or don't believe and see if I could clarify any of it. Would I try and convert somebody...Yes, I would. From a believers perspective its not to be supreme but out of love. I wish for no one to go through the torment that I beleive is to come. Do I think any less of you if you dont believe...No. I hope that you atleast understand this and why alot of believers behave the way they do.
I will not respond to anything on this thread from now on. If anybody would like to discuss this seriously with me you can email me at [email protected]
John
No, I don't recall. Please post a reference to my post
From my point of view, you've been twisting my words, so please post your reference from me that led you to this conclusion.
Perhaps it will show where our reasoning differs.
I am impressed that you looked at Matthew 7 line by line. The reason I posted it was to provide the "Swine/Pearls" reference, but at least you are re-reading the bible.
I'll take a closer look to your analysis of the chapter later. Skimming over your post, it looks like your belief is strengthened (further away from my belief). That is interesting because I think there is a bible reference about becoming more "faithfull" to your side (whichever side that is).
Regards.
Iain17 and other slanderers
"So why do you say that we are going to hell if we do not believe in your God. Is this not a judgement?"
Where are you people getting words that you are trying to put in my mouth. You seem to be arguing with yourself. I have never said such a thing. I don't even think I posted such a thing from the bible. Perhaps you had a bad experience in your past with the bible.
Don't mistake what the bible says for what I say. I am not your god or your judge. Find out what the bible says.
That is why I posted the full chapter that mentioned swine and pearls. And even then, I'd go back to a Greek/English Interlinear if I was really trying to fathom it. (OR ELSE I MAY CONCLUDE THAT PETER IS THE FATHER OF THE CHURCH--I don't conclude that). There are what I call "harmonics" in the bible. A first glance(harmonic) and deeper study (harmonics) and "Harmony of the Gospel(s)". Some say practical meanings and spiritual meanings. I would speculate that there is where much symbolism comes from.
I can only give you my understanding of what the bible says. Seriously, find out for yourself by reading or listening. http://www.bible.com
Forcing to Warp my mind, it'll bend back as soon as i stop typing
Gen-x Please, don't get mad :mad: again.
Quote:
Here is the interesting thing though... Ask a Christian to talk about the possibility that Goes does NOT exist and see what answer you get 9 times out of 10.
If you get an honest anwer you get "I'm not sure" and that's for sure 9 times of 10. :D
Quote:
Kedaman's theory is a very neat and very nice way of throwing absolutely EVERYTHING out the window so that you reduce it to the absolute barest minimum by means of paranoia (Is it real? Does it exist? How do I know? Everyone could be fooling me, it could be an illusion).
Don't say that Gen-x I didn't throw anything at all out of my window, i just compressed all air out of it and put it in my pocket. And I do not experience paranoia, just like Sam said we have our philosophy hat's on and that means we talk like this, now when I do anything else, in other words, live my life, i'm acting in and experiencing world what you would call "normally"
I don't think theres any idea talking symbolic now Gen-x, yeah you must have been startled i said that, if you define symbolic as diffuse then you may notice you used that a lot in your last post. And if you don't want to get symbolic, get rid of it and let's speak clearly. OR as you said we won't get anywhere. If you have something important there, restate it and i'll reply on it.
iain
Quote:
originally posted by Gen-x
Good try on Kedaman's "theory"... but you didn't agree with him so you are automatically wrong.
I hope you don't leave again, because of Gen-x comment
I'm not disagreeing with you because that you disagreeing with me, i just put up some arguments against yours and I hope you don't ignore them just like Gen-x did. If something got unclear just ask.
Sam
Quote:
The Universe Exists
Justification
I exist (I think Therefore I am) I observe the universe, If The universe is just an illusion, it must be
a) In my Head, Therefore I am God.
b) Inside another universe, therefore this universe exists (because if it's an illusion it exists inside another universe or someones head(god)
Olé! That's not working Sam, because you have to explain what Universe is first, and you explain it like this:
a) My imagination
b) The universe I exist in
So thats it, but we are actually talking b, all the time, because there's no point talking a.
Actually I can't proove God is not me if we assume that, but won't it get more clearer than it is, God exists anyway. That's the whole point in believing. You believe you're not alone and So do I.
WHOA! That got a bit too far from my philosphical spectrum.
Othwerways, i'm not going dive deep into quantum mechanics, but i'm not willing to disagree, i'm just not believing that word by word.
Quote:
That which is not truly observed to exist, yet is not truly observed not to exist has a probability of existing
And I want to call this subjectiveness, because I think Universe contains no probablilities at all, well we don't know but we will get close.
Ok, i was going as crazy as Sam, but that doesn't mean stupid, well see what Gen-x thinks.
Gen-x next post
Quote:
Why didn't God just create us intelligent enough to understand? He could create the universe but couldn't do that?
Also... Think about what this implies.
- God creates a universe
- Populates it with insignificant and stupid life
- He sets it up such that life can evolve
- He watches them gain knowledge as they evolve
It sounds like an experiment... like we are testtube rats that are being watched...
Whats the point of it all then?
It's not an experiment, if you do an experiment you expect a result which you don't know. God knows what he is doing. Thrust him if you need.
God didn't create intelligent life enough to understand that because that would not work out, but i'm of course not sure, maybe someday we're going to understand, maybe some of us already do. Don't expect i'm going to have to know a qwestion we can't answer because it i'mplies you don't.
Hope that got clear. ;)
But i'm sure it wont.
Hold Strong To Your Convictions
But know why you are holding strong.
If you read the title of the Matthew 7 post, "RE: Swine; Then perhaps you have another reason to "hate" the Bible. (verse 6)", you should have learned that I'm not interested if you come back with my conclusions or not. But you should come back with a stronger conviction. So don't post that I am saying that people have to believe what I say or else I say they are wrong and didn't read it correctly. A judgement (if there is a judgment) will show who is right or wrong. The parentheses here show that I entertain the possibility that I am wrong about if there is a God.
My description of the possibility that God does not exist (which I have never stated here, but could be inferred from statements similar to...) If I believe in the evidence for a big bang, then my conclusions for black holes must be incorrect, or I will have to devise a new spacial metric to cover my tracks and tracts, or investigate the white hole and alter physics in convenient regions. Funny, I believe that I have more evidence that our black hole theory is wrong (to a degree) and that we don't have to alter physics or introduce "Virtual Physics" to have matter leaving a black hole.
The fact that anything is here now means "Something Must Always Have Existed". Cyclic or not, a big bang must be reconciled with black holes. I just find the current theory amusing.
Then you say that I have said something, but do not back it up with evidence.
Doesn't your current view on perfection limit a perfect God?
[Therefor "perfect" would be the subset of everything that is possible, including only those things which are not in error or flawed which means perfect IS limited.]
Aren't we imposing what God ought to be? (The "we" here is all people) WE are all guilty of trying to grasp infinity with a finite mind. But that doesn't change my statement that YOU are trying to do so!
I don't follow your "incorrect assumption" argument against me because it appears to me that you agree with me that this view of perfect concludes that perfect is limited.
If you want to call it arrogance that I have my own convictions, that is your choice. I merely encourage that people come to their own convictions after reviewing the evidence, (so I provide references of evidence).
I believe that I instructed you that one man's evidence is another man's proof and perhaps the limit of claims as evidence approaches infinity is proof. But certain things may potentially never be proven and we reach them by faith (whether religious or scientific). That is why my "faith" was strengthened because I found evidence that I believed by faith. Although an Atheist may believe without the proof I require to believe by proof (due to his believing on less evidence).
I know I can come across as arrogant. I am still deciding if I should tell you to rise from "bowing humbly" (in the other thread). Rise and fix your gaze to the evidence of the stars.
JC IS a scapegoat. But if everything is absorbed, then no-one will face judgement. This is also where some Pastors may disagree with me. But will this apply to you? Do you trust in JC ?
Sounds like you don't want me to answer you anymore. Is that so it can appear that you have won an argument, or because you are not sincere?
Ahh, the father had no income and was a burden or beat the child. Sounds to me that the family suffered. And that the judgement limited the suffering of the generations. This is a mercifull God.
Twist things as you may, but be true to yourself.
-Shakespeare
Your wishes are granted. See Ya, Wouldn't Want To Be Ya.
I don't know if it is a Monday thing or if it really is you that has exhausted me. Maybe if we continued one-on-one I could be more confident that you have read what I have written. I know that you post alot, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe your attention is split among too many posts. I interpret your replies to me as evasive and you interpret mine the same way. I don't think I'll be replying to you in this forum anymore, but it is because I feel like I have to keep referring to my past posts that (from my point of view) you won't read.
I am on the verge of publishing a paper on matter being able to leave the event horizon of a black hole without introducing "virtual particles" and this would undermine my theory of the Big Bang opposing Black Holes and "who/what intervened" when the Big Bang was a black hole (if it was a black hole), and you say that I have not answered your question. This will be without using energy or gravity escaping as an argument. The intervention could have been by an advanced entity (not the God of the Bible) or a process following the capability of my paper (requiring NO god of any sort). Try to read the converse of a statement also. I don't have to say "God" when I propose a purely scientific possibility. If this science holds, then there is no need for a God. But now I have stated it (hopefully) as you desire and can grasp.
I believe that the quote was that the children would suffer (generations of the lineage). So you lost me.
On "faith": I consulted a dictionary (dictionary.com) and it said, "without proof or evidence", so I suppose I am arrogant to go against this dictionary, because I would say "without proof", but I would not say "without evidence". The bible says in John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
So I would conclude that you (and the dictionary and perhaps everyone else in the world--a consensus thing, so you must be right--not--[because I am arrogant and consensus is not truth or fact]) must really be defining "blind faith". Because the bible seems to be providing evidence and saying to have faith (JC: be not faithless Tom, I just showed you evidence). And maybe you can add that to the tally of biblical (apparent) contradictions or warped definitions. Perhaps "blind faith" is true enlightenment required to "move that mountain by my word". I almost wish I had blind faith.
dictionary.com also seems to suggest that evidence=proof, and again I would disagree. I proposed an "In The Limit" definition in a recent post. I guess I'm just a rebel. Or a free thinker or just blind although I don't have blind faith. But I would say that I have faith by my (convenient as you say) definition.
Oh, and yes, believers are content.
How about them BBQ'd rats? Mmmm mmmm
You strike me as a "survivor".
