Wait, you two are going to quibble over syntax and semantics? Are you guys Religious Lawyers? :)
I'm still dramatically upset by the "Love Me or Perish" doctrine.
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Wait, you two are going to quibble over syntax and semantics? Are you guys Religious Lawyers? :)
I'm still dramatically upset by the "Love Me or Perish" doctrine.
Jesus was a god (lowercase "G"), but he was not the God (uppercase "G"). There is an enormous difference here.Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
JW say Jesus was a god. The original translations which are backed up and proven say Jesus was God.
Jesus was God's son. Jesus's father (God) is the one who created everything and ruled over the Israelites and all that.
You can say Jesus was a god because of all the power he had. Jesus is not the only one in the bible who gets called a god. In Psalms 82:1, those are people being called "gods" (not all translations translate to "gods", but most do). In Exodus 15:11, the bible makes reference to other gods. Just because the bible calls someone a god doesn't mean the bible is saying that they are the God.
Have a look at Matthew 19:4. Jesus says that the scriptures state that God created the first man and woman. Note that Jesus is not saying that he himself did it. He's saying that someone else did it. Any translation of the bible will show that.
Now, jesus4u, about your quote of John 1:1, this is a flaw in your particular translation. I may explain this later. I know you believe your translation to be the translation to end all translations. For now, I'll give a short explanation. How can the Word be with God and still be God at the same time? The second word, "God" should've had a lowercase "G".
I'd rather not, but it looks like I have no choice. Contrary to what jesus4u claims, my translation of the bible is no further away from the original meaning than anybody else's translation.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Wait, you two are going to quibble over syntax and semantics? Are you guys Religious Lawyers? :)
I'm still dramatically upset by the "Love Me or Perish" doctrine.
Regardless of your translation, you are trying to apply rational laws of the physical universe to something that may or may not even exist in any context.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
I'd rather not, but it looks like I have no choice. Contrary to what jesus4u claims, my translation of the bible is no further away from the original meaning than anybody else's translation.
In other words, it may be entirely possible for a god to incarnate himself as his own son, and for that god to be his testament and be with his testament. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.
Does your translation describe a god that coherses love with threats of damnation?
My translation? I prefer to say my interpretation. A translation is just an effort to convert something from one language to another. While they all may say something different, they're all (hopefully) made with the same goal, to preserve as much of the original meaning as possible. It's interpretations that differ in meaning.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Does your translation describe a god that coherses love with threats of damnation?
I believe the bible describes God as someone who does not make threats of eternal damnation. The worst thing that can happen to you after death is you could simply not exist and never exist again. No torment. Just nothing.
Ah, so your god merely bribes people.
He isn't psychopathic, but I don't see any reason to submit to bribes, either.
The verse starts out with "in the beginning". If we're talking about a time after God "incarnates himself as his own son", it wouldn't necessarily be in the beginning.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Regardless of your translation, you are trying to apply rational laws of the physical universe to something that may or may not even exist in any context.
In other words, it may be entirely possible for a god to incarnate himself as his own son, and for that god to be his testament and be with his testament. Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done.
John 1:1 is referring to the very beginning, when God first started creating everything. Jesus was the first being. Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as "the firstborn of all creation". Other translations say the same thing, in different words.
What do you believe a bribe is? It isn't just any payment. I don't think God "bribes" us.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Ah, so your god merely bribes people.
He isn't psychopathic, but I don't see any reason to submit to bribes, either.
Your god offers an afterlife or eternal life as a reward for loving/worshipping/following him. That is a bribe.
Your god doesn't say, "Follow me because we have to fight evil." Your god says, "Only those who follow me will be rewarded."
I'm sorry, but if I ally with a god it will be because of a common goal or solely on his merits. Any god who has to threaten or bribe me isn't worthy. And if your god exists as you describe, then count me as an atheist.
Well, then I'm your god!:p Follow me, because we must fight evil dandruff. If we win the battle, we're all going to the nudie bar, and eatin ribs. I can't offer eternal happiness, but it should last until the bouncers kick us out. And feel free to partake in the heavenly nectars (beers). Membership does require a standard tithe, but its negotiable.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Your god offers an afterlife or eternal life as a reward for loving/worshipping/following him. That is a bribe.
Your god doesn't say, "Follow me because we have to fight evil." Your god says, "Only those who follow me will be rewarded."
I'm sorry, but if I ally with a god it will be because of a common goal or solely on his merits. Any god who has to threaten or bribe me isn't worthy. And if your god exists as you describe, then count me as an atheist.
:D
Sorry, I don't like beer. And I've been to a nudie bar. I was not terribly impressed. Guess I'm spoiled.
*hunts for a new church*
Actually, He says both.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Your god offers an afterlife or eternal life as a reward for loving/worshipping/following him. That is a bribe.
Your god doesn't say, "Follow me because we have to fight evil." Your god says, "Only those who follow me will be rewarded."
But even if it was as you say, it isn't a bribe. A bribe is when you're paid to do something wrong or alter your judgement in the wrong direction. It's not just any payment, otherwise your employers would be bribing you to work for them.
Can I offer kool-aid and cheese?
:)
Kool-Aid is fine, but not with cheese. Yuck.
Funny that, since he is the reason behind the only evil he has identified. In otherwords, without his interferance, there wouldn't be any evil?Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
Actually, He says both.
Okay, call it a salary. Point is, if he pays for worship, then the worship isn't genuine. Instead of being his slave race, you can just think of us all as god's *****s. :)Quote:
But even if it was as you say, it isn't a bribe. A bribe is when you're paid to do something wrong or alter your judgement in the wrong direction. It's not just any payment, otherwise your employers would be bribing you to work for them.
I guess that makes the Pope a pimp.
The cause behind evil is Satan. God deserves no more blame for it than the parents of an axe murder. I've gone over this already in other threads.Quote:
Originally posted by CiberTHuG
Funny that, since he is the reason behind the only evil he has identified. In otherwords, without his interferance, there wouldn't be any evil?
wow.....
i must say, it takes quite a bit of courage to come out and tell the word of god.... jesus4u, ajd others who have stepped up to the plate, i congradulate you, and support you.....
God is the way, the truth, and the light!
as for some of the others, the objectors, well, maybe your objections are really linked to a curiosity you have... maybe you should learn more... no, you SHOULD learn more about god... everyone should.....
you people are looking for some answers to some very tough questions... questions that can be debated many ways.... i think we're already doing a good job of testifying our knowledge, and hopefully that will provide you with some more insite....
god has not enslaved his people... he created us in the image of himself...... he has rather given us freedom.... freedom of how we wish to live our lives..... if he had not given us the option between good and evil, we would be enslaved....
god IS a loving god....
honeybee i dont know what you meanQuote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Now that's something!!
Yeah, kovan, where are you dude? Give us an interesting bout between J4u and u.
C'mon, any bets?
.
he is partly right
Quran is the highest authority for muslims
and quran does give authority to the bible (not todays)
as muslims do believe in the bible and turah
but those that were sent down to moses and jesus
not the copies john and others wrote
as j4u stated before..... how many people do you know or have you known that are/were truly happy? i mean TRULY happy..... money cannot buy happiness..... money buys affluenza... i'd hafta admit, im guilty of this myself....
how many things in life do we buy? we buy clothes, cars, computers, nice houses, and what? where does it end!? it doesn't!!! do we ever stop wanting? no! think about it... there's got to be something... some kind of computer part, or whatever that you want right now... everyone... what happened the last time u wanted something like this so bad? you thought once you had it you'd be happy... but here you are, wanting again! for what? do not worry about what you will eat, or what clothes you will wear, or where you will sleep.... look at the birds... they do not worry about the next day, yet god takes care of them... surely you are more important to god than the birds! surely he will take care of you in the same way!
now look at people like mother theresa !!! she was truly happy... with what? she had nothing... yet, she had everything..... she was a servant of god....
those who are rich on earth will be poor in heaven
those who are persecuted on earth will not be in heaven...
those who persecute will be persecuted.......
as humans on earth, it is SOOO hard to grasp the concept of eternal life.... life on earth is very short... VERY.... eternal life with god is just that... eternal... forever! INFINITY.... we tend to relate heaven with the 'heavenly' riches here on earth which we own and worship...... we must understand, that heaven and eternal life is soo much greater than what we would classify heaven on earth as now....
Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things thru Christ which strengthenth me."
John 3:16 "God so loved the that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. "
John 14:6 "Jesus aid to him, "I am the way, the truth and the life, No one comes to the Father but by me."
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Matthew 22:36 "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with all your mind."
Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
Matthew 28:20 "I am with you always, to the close of the age. "
think about those verses for abit.... think very deeply....
I just love how people that believe in god always think that the rest of us are missing out on something or can't see the obvious. I would argue that we have the same right to dismiss your views based on our own beliefs in science, rock gods, jeebus or superman. I doubt that anyone's opinions on the merits of religion or lack thereof are going to be changed by posts in this forum and so maybe we should all learn not to try to force our preachings on others.
Now crptchachallbbbcaablade... about those nudie bars :p :D
ahh, I see crptchachallbbbcaabladicism is catching on. :DQuote:
Originally posted by beachbum
Now crptchachallbbbcaablade... about those nudie bars :p :D
We'll meet on the Day of Maximum Occupancy at our church(The Panty Shanty)
:)
Do i need to bring anything except dollar notes? Maybe some cigars and tic tacs?
That's good, and it would also be a wise decision to bring a tazer.
(The Panty Shanty is rough, you'll find out when you get there ;))
:D
Hope u arent planning to get us disciples drunk and then rob us of every spare coinage we have in our pockets!! hmmm... I thiink I want to check out this Panty shanty for myself before the great day... purely for research pusposes u understand... :D
;) Understood.
Just tell the bouncer that you know the guy who did all the nipples in the place, and you won't get hassled.
:)
nope, nobody said you had to believe anything.. sure, you can dismiss all of our views... that's fine...
hmm who knows.... can try at least can't we? missing something? sure... god... that's part of what i believe in, is telling others and sharing god's word... if you don't want to hear it, don't listen... but you people are the ones missing out..Quote:
I doubt that anyone's opinions on the merits of religion or lack thereof are going to be changed by posts in this forum and so maybe we should all learn not to try to force our preachings on others.
all i can do is pray for you and hope that in some way you are shown god's grace and will someday believe in him, and accept the lord, jesus christ into your heart.... :)
how dare you try to bring this thread back on track when we're trying to talk about nudie bars!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
:p:D
YEAH WHAT HE SAID!! :p
Redth, look I really dont care what religious people think. It means nothing to me. If they dont bother me then i dont bother them. But if ppl like j4u start preaching in here of all places then they are open to any inane replies we can think of. Anyway, I prefer crpthcttacpalrbacalades religion cos he has beer!! :D
Crpghathapghartlglahlarhelade, I hope that none of those women in that place will be hassling me and weakening my resolve to conduct pure research in that establishment from the downstairs part of the building!! :p
How are we "forcing our preachings on others"? I fail to understand this point. It's been said before, too, that we're forcing our beliefs, etc on others when we discuss religion or make religious threads. I fail to see how it forces anything on anyone.Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum
... so maybe we should all learn not to try to force our preachings on others.
The way the forum works is you see different threads on different topics. Using the title of the thread, you can (usually) tell what is discussed in there. Reading what is presented in the thread is completely voluntary. So where does forcing beliefs come into the picture?
Redth
I feel the need to ask you whether you believe Jesus is God or not, since that is what me and jesus4u were talking about.
Ps Redth how dare u say u can pray for me so that i can learn etc. That is the sort of patronising crap that so many of us devout atheists detest. I am praying to crptchallhachhaablade that u learn and see the light at the Panty Shanty. Equally ridiculous???
Tygur
J4u actually admitted to trying to sway ppl in a prev thread and redth as much as admits it here too. I of course know that it isnt forcing in the way of twisting my arm etc. But it gets so annoying and is basically spam that few want to hear; and i guess that even if people did want to hear they wouldnt be looking to a vb forum for the source of information. I ask you then what u think j4u and redth's purpose is for posting such things if not to get feedback or to impose on others?
Also, Tygur, you are a religious person but never once have i seen a 'preaching' thread by you. I guess you know that it is not really relevant or appropriate in this place. Dont get me wrong.. i do respect your right to believe but equally i expect a similar right not to believe.
:)
Regards
Stuart
Nicely put Beachbum!!Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum
Tygur
J4u actually admitted to trying to sway ppl in a prev thread and redth as much as admits it here too. I of course know that it isnt forcing in the way of twisting my arm etc. But it gets so annoying and is basically spam that few want to hear; and i guess that even if people did want to hear they wouldnt be looking to a vb forum for the source of information. I ask you then what u think j4u and redth's purpose is for posting such things if not to get feedback or to impose on others?
Also, Tygur, you are a religious person but never once have i seen a 'preaching' thread by you. I guess you know that it is not really relevant or appropriate in this place. Dont get me wrong.. i do respect your right to believe but equally i expect a similar right not to believe.
:)
Regards
Stuart
I dont mind people being religous at all as long as they dont impose those views on me.!!!
Hey cryptcblade Sign me up for crptchachallbbbcaabladicism :D
ruds
Ur yuh shur yuh ur ruddy fur ut? Cus ut unvullv's nukkud wummun unstud of shup. Ulso thur us cuppious amunts of ulcuhull unvulv'd.. but thut shud buh ukuh fur yuhz eh cuz. PS Wroit thuh num uf thuh plusse dun.. Cus wuh dunt wunt yuh gung tuh thuh Punty Shunty unstud!!!! :D
Nah its only the Southern lads that go for the sheep us northlanders are actually quite sophistacted we hang out in seedy strip clubs and drink copious quantities of booze.
alright then mate I have written down that address :D so i dont go to the pinty Shinty instead :D
hmm..
yes, i must agree with Tygur ... this thread was started on the topic of religion... we've only continued the topic.. .we haven't spammed some programming topic with our preachings.... you have the choice not to come and read this.... which is fine, you are entitled to your own opinions.. im just trying to help here....
Tygur, well that is a difficult question... Jesus is and isn't God...... Since Jesus is God's son, and was physically sent here to earth, i Guess that does qualify him as being God's son, and therefore not really God, although God did create him... so, in a sense, he is God as well..... heh get what im trying to say?
Beach, well your going to hell
we the religious people dont want you to fry,
:D :D :D :D :D
me go to bed
everyone is entitled to their beliefs
if everyoen followed God, there woudl be no need for religion
:)
dare i ask you to explain trinity?Quote:
Originally posted by Redth
hmm..
yes, i must agree with Tygur ... this thread was started on the topic of religion... we've only continued the topic.. .we haven't spammed some programming topic with our preachings.... you have the choice not to come and read this.... which is fine, you are entitled to your own opinions.. im just trying to help here....
Tygur, well that is a difficult question... Jesus is and isn't God...... Since Jesus is God's son, and was physically sent here to earth, i Guess that does qualify him as being God's son, and therefore not really God, although God did create him... so, in a sense, he is God as well..... heh get what im trying to say?
then again nevermind, diss miss this post :)
Please use butter instead of oil cos it is nicer on the skin!! :DQuote:
Originally posted by kovan
Beach, well your going to hell
we the religious people dont want you to fry,
:D :D :D :D :D
Uh hup ah dudnt guv uwuh muh uthur uduntutty. Hey ruds cuz yuh dudnt tull unnywun dud yah?
Just shows how hopeless i would be at imposters. After 3 posts I am already completely confused und bumbuzzled. !! :p
arrghhh buck tuh spukkun wuth ruds
I don't feel that posting religious threads is anything close to forcing or imposing religious thoughts and ideas. Like I said before, viewing a thread is completely voluntary. If you don't care to see it, just look at a different thread. There's nothing even remotely forceful about it.Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum
Tygur
J4u actually admitted to trying to sway ppl in a prev thread and redth as much as admits it here too. I of course know that it isnt forcing in the way of twisting my arm etc. But it gets so annoying and is basically spam that few want to hear; and i guess that even if people did want to hear they wouldnt be looking to a vb forum for the source of information. I ask you then what u think j4u and redth's purpose is for posting such things if not to get feedback or to impose on others?
It's not spam, either. It's not off-topic. And the people posting the threads don't really have anything to gain by getting you to follow their beliefs, except maybe the satisfaction in getting someone to be saved. They don't make money off the threads at all.
Just because something is annoying, doesn't mean it's wrong. It's only an annoyance. If nobody wants to hear it, then nobody should be clicking into the thread.
The reason why I didn't start any religious threads of my own is because I don't feel the need to. Enough people are already starting them and I feel content just challenging their beliefs.Quote:
Originally posted by beachbum
Also, Tygur, you are a religious person but never once have i seen a 'preaching' thread by you. I guess you know that it is not really relevant or appropriate in this place. Dont get me wrong.. i do respect your right to believe but equally i expect a similar right not to believe.
This (Chit-Chat) is a forum for talking about anything. Religion is certainly part of anything. So it seems appropriate here. And for truly religious people, it's relevant all the time. For these people (myself included) the existance of a God and all the rest of these stories (I imagine that's all they are to you) are a reality. People must come to learn about God or else. Your (after)life is at stake.
You can believe or not believe whatever you want. However, there is nothing wrong with someone presenting new ideas to you that you can either take or leave. This is what freedom of speech is. People are free to express their thoughts and ideas, even though they may be in the minority. And you are free to take it or leave it. No harm done. In the case of these forums, you can choose to not even hear it by avoiding all religious threads.
Jesus is God becase God created him? Please explain. Adam wasn't God. Satan certainly isn't God. Jesus can't be God just because he was created by God.Quote:
Originally posted by Redth
Tygur, well that is a difficult question... Jesus is and isn't God...... Since Jesus is God's son, and was physically sent here to earth, i Guess that does qualify him as being God's son, and therefore not really God, although God did create him... so, in a sense, he is God as well..... heh get what im trying to say?
ok tygur this is getting all too serious now. I am not stupid enuf to think that i can be forced to read a religious thread. In fact i find them quite enjoyable but for opposite and obvious reasons. Are u really suggesting that I am against free speech?? Wow, next you will be telling me that I have no right to burn those witches!! :p
I guess the overall point I was trying to make is that these 'preacher's' are talking to people that are smart enough to work out what they want for themselves without hearing the rantings of some evangelical nutter.
Regards
Stuart
Still too lazy to change avatar for time being :D
okay so you're beachbum?Quote:
Originally posted by stuffun_rubb
ok tygur this is getting all too serious now. I am not stupid enuf to think that i can be forced to read a religious thread. In fact i find them quite enjoyable but for opposite and obvious reasons. Are u really suggesting that I am against free speech?? Wow, next you will be telling me that I have no right to burn those witches!! :p
I guess the overall point I was trying to make is that these 'preacher's' are talking to people that are smart enough to work out what they want for themselves without hearing the rantings of some evangelical nutter.
Well I'm not saying you're against free speech. I guess I should've been a little more careful about that free speech part. I was just explaining that while you had the right to believe or not believe whatever you chose, religious people have the freedom of speech. They can still explain their teachings. I know you're not against free speech.
Just as you weren't saying I was against your right to free thought (free to believe whatever), I'm not saying you're against free speech.
My point is that some of these "evangelical nutters" might be onto something and people might want to listen.
Cool Tygur no probs :) But i still think that Crptychblaade is onto something with his religion!! :D hmm wonder if he has any handouts or posters??? :p
Ps
This is my first and last lame attempt at a character. Was purely for blurbing with ruds and the beautiful kiwi accent. But it is too confusing for my tiny brain (still 7 cells left!) and so he will be put to bed very soon... ;)
Thus uz muh furst und lust lum uttumpt ut uh chuructur. Wuz purleh fur blurbun wuth ruds (mah cuz) und thuh buttuful kuwuh ucsunt. But ut us tuh cunfussun fur muh toiny brun (stull suvun brun sulls luft) und suh he wull buh put tuh bud vurry sun.
kaipai cuz you huv dun duh kuwi uccent a rully gud survuce I tuke muh hut uf tuh yuh cus. und uh nuh yuh wull fut rutt untuh uh kuwi pub anuhtum muth :D
(good one man you have done the kiwi accent a really good service and I take my hat off to you man, and I know you will fit right into a Kiwi pub anytime mate. :) )
Ah must uv bun ut thuh pub thuh day thut thuh tuchur lurn'd us thut wurd kaipai eh cuz. Thuh unly kaipai ah'v hurd uv us thut luttle ugly burd un sum pustry. Yuh kunt ( :eek: ) gut thum ut bundi but uts ok coz yuh cun stull buy fush und chups.
welcome Redth to the thread! :)
Here is the verse for the day.
Romans 5:8 and 5:9:
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
:D
Tygur read this
Q: In Jn 1:1, how could the Word both be God and with God?
A: In the same way as the Son could be both God and have a God in Hebrews 1:8,9. Besides referring to false gods, the word "God" has at least four meanings with respect to the true God. "God" can mean just the Father, just the Son, just the Spirit, or the three in Trinity.
Here is what the church father Hippolytus (225-236 A.D.) said in Against the Heresy of One Noetus chapter 14, says "If, then the Word was with God and was also God what follows? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods but of one; of two Persons however and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One but there are two Persons because there is also the son; and then there is the third the Holy Spirit."
Q: In Jn 1:1, how could God be incarnated as a man?
A: On one hand the answer is simple: God Almighty can appear however He wishes. On the other hand, this is a profound miracle. Melito the philosopher (160-170-177 A.D.) pondered the mystery of the incarnation in his Discourse on the Cross
"On these accounts He came to us; on these accounts, though He was incorporeal, He formed for Himself a body after our fashion, appearing as a sheep, yet still remaining the Shepherd; being esteemed a servant, yet not renouncing the Sonship; being carried [in the womb] of Mary, yet arrayed in [the nature of] His Father; treading upon the earth, yet filling heaven; appearing as an infant, yet not discarding the eternity of His nature; being invested with a body, yet not circumscribing the unmixed simplicity of His Godhead; being esteemed poor, yet not divested of His riches; needing sustenance inasmuch as He was man, yet not ceasing to feed the entire world inasmuch as He is God; putting on the likeness of a servant, yet not impairing the likeness of His Father."
Q: In Jn 1:1, how else do we know that Jesus is God?
1. All Old Testament names for God are merged into Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus received human worship. Either He was wrong to do so, or else He was correct to do so.
3. Jesus forgave sins against God.
4. Jesus showed omnipotent power.
5. Jesus showed omniscience (perhaps he did not have this on earth prior to his resurrection though.)
6. Jesus asserted omnipresence.
7. The New Testament says that Jesus is God, and is to be honored as the Father.
Tygur in reply to Jesus BEING God NOT a created being...
Q: In Jn 1:1, should this be translated as "was divine", "was a God", or "was God"?
A: It should be "was God". Here is a summary of the linguistic evidence.
Not just a god: The same grammar, "theos" without the "ho" in Greek, refers to Jehovah-God in Luke 20:38.
Not just divine: If John had intended merely to say that Jesus was divine, John could have used the adjective "theios". However, John emphasized that Jesus is actually God.
The word was God:
It must be mentioned that modern linguistic study is not the strongest evidence available to show that John 1:1 meant that the Word was God. There is another approach. What if we could ask Christians who were the native speakers of New Testament Greek what John 1:1 meant? We can do so. See the next question for the answers, though you probably will not like their answers ......
Q: In Jn 1:1, what did the early church teach about this verse and the Word being God?
A: It is insightful to hear what modern scholars, 2000 years later, say the Greek meant. However, what is more interesting what church leaders who lived 1700-1800 years ago, many of whom spoke New Testament Greek since they were babies, interpreted what John 1:1, in their own language, meant to them.
Justin Martyr (110/114-165 A.D.)
"for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out; and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same;... The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me..." Dialogue with Trypho ch. 61.
Theophilus bishop of Antioch (115-181 A.D.)
""For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Letter to Autolycus 2:22
Tertullian (200-220/240 A.D.)
"The Word, therefore, is both always in the Father, as He says, ‘I am in the Father;’ and is always with God, according to what is written, ‘And the Word was with God;’ and never separate from the Father, or other than the Father, since ‘I and the Father are one.’" Against Praxeus chapter 8.
Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.)
"But that He [Jesus] is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have obtained to even a small portion of the truth." (Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:19:2).
"Know thou that every man is either empty or full. For if he has not the Holy Spirit, he has no knowledge of the Creator; he has not received Jesus Christ the life; he knows not the Father who is in heaven;..." (Against Heresies 3:16)
"She [the church] also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul.... For the churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different nor do those in Spain nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East nor those in Egypt nor those in Libya, nor ..."
Hippolytus (225-236 A.D.) after quoting part of John 1:1
"If, then the Word was with God and was also God what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods but of one; of two Persons however and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One but there are two Persons because there is also the Son; and then there is the third the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of the harmony is led back to one God; for God is One. It is the Father who commands and the Son who obeys and the Holy Spirit who gives understanding; the Father is above all, and the Son who is through all and the Holy Spirit who is in all. And we cannot otherwise think of one God, but by believing in truth in Father and Son and Holy Spirit." Against the Heresy of One Noetus chapter 14.
Why you think anyone is going to glean any kind of information that leads to a change in their opinions from bible quotes completely eludes me.
It's informative if you believe it's definitely true. Otherwise, it's just words with no backing.
You're wasting your time with bible quotes. Try some informed arguments with relevant information instead.
Morning Alex...
I wish he would bring on the wrath soon - can't get any worse than the way the state of the world is at the moment...
what's up Gaffer?
Quote:
Originally posted by HarryW
Why you think anyone is going to glean any kind of information that leads to a change in their opinions from bible quotes completely eludes me.
It's informative if you believe it's definitely true. Otherwise, it's just words with no backing.
You're wasting your time with bible quotes. Try some informed arguments with relevant information instead.
IF you would take to heart the Bible verses I quote they may change your life.
Or are you afraid of a book that can't harm you anyway? :)
It will! Look at Revelation. That is when ALL of God's wrath will come.Quote:
Originally posted by Gaffer
Morning Alex...
I wish he would bring on the wrath soon - can't get any worse than the way the state of the world is at the moment...
Why would I take it to heart? Why would any sane person just all of a sudden decide to assume something is completely true for no reason?Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
IF you would take to heart the Bible verses I quote they may change your life.
Or are you afraid of a book that can't harm you anyway? :)
I'm not going to just take it to heart without a reason. I am sure it would change my life if I did, because I would end up preaching this stuff to people, just like you do. I don't consider that a change for the better.
I'm not afraid of it. I'm also not afraid of being wrong. I've been wrong many times before and I will be wrong many times again. What I consider important is that I admit it when I'm wrong and am ready to change my opinion based on new information. I don't, however, change my opinion for no good reason as you are suggesting, and I don't encourage anyone else to do so. It's just silly.
Uhm... I've missed a lot in this thread, but I have to address this point.Quote:
Originally posted by Tygur
The cause behind evil is Satan. God deserves no more blame for it than the parents of an axe murder. I've gone over this already in other threads.
Tygur, are you smoking crack? Let's take a step back.
Who is Satan? He is Lucifer, the fallen Arcangel. He is the bringer of light. He is one of your god's creations, n'est-ce pas? Well, he fell after the creation of man. He became upset that they had free choice. (all according to the fables)
I imagine he had other motives, but I won't speculate on that. Point is, god didn't create man to fight Satan, Satan is fighting god because of man. Man is caught in the middle.
Since he didn't create man to fight evil, the only other reason put forth was: self adoration. He created man to fulfill his own vanity.
Satan was not an angel
:)
*that should add more fuel*
Maybe we should all chip-in and buy God some anger management courses?Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
It will! Look at Revelation. That is when ALL of God's wrath will come.
Doesn't this quote imply that you are reverential of god because you're scared of him?
Isn't this therefore forced worship. I refuse to capitulate and submit to someone trying to frighten me into worshipping them.
SD
That's dissappointing, SD! I was sure if I dressed up in studded leather and used my big whip you would worship me.:eek: