Do YOU pay for software?

not sure if this has been mentioned above because I dont have time to read through it all, but

I'd suggest just to put some ads on there (if it is an internet app).

Most people don't mind it. I, for one, would be content at letting ads sit there if it is a good program. The more annoying you get with popups like "be sure to register", etc etc, the more you will drive people to get cracks/patches/warez versions. Trust me on that one ;)

There are other options if you are not programming an internet app. You just have to be creative ;)

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Oh not the car thing again. Using a car devalues it and stops others from using it. The analogy isn't valid.

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It is for our purposes. Using a car for a few hours, washing it, then setting the odometer back doesn't devalue the car.

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Please try and understand that I am not - NOT - talking about 'granting' people the privilege og violating the law when it conflicts with their values.

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I think that's exactly what you're saying. That people should, or already do, violate the law when it conflicts with their values, or think it is unreasonable.

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Legal and illegal are not the main issue, people do follow what they want (what they think is right) unless something (ie the law in this case) stops them.

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People should obey the law even when it is impossible to enforce.

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In light of this fact, I don't propose any changes in the law, as I must have said at least five times by now.

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I'm not asking you to cite changes, I'm asking the other guy to, since he obviously disagrees with copyright law.

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To understand what I'm talking about you're going to have to look past the 'it's illegal so it must be wrong' idea.

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The law doesn't necessarily deal with "right" and "wrong" in all cases. The law, in this case, is to protect the prosperity, appreciation, and further development of intellectual property. It doesn't have to be "right" in order to be considered enforceable.

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Originally posted by aknisely
It is for our purposes. Using a car for a few hours, washing it, then setting the odometer back doesn't devalue the car.

I think that's exactly what you're saying. That people should, or already do, violate the law when it conflicts with their values, or think it is unreasonable.

People should obey the law even when it is impossible to enforce.

I'm not asking you to cite changes, I'm asking the other guy to, since he obviously disagrees with copyright law.

The law doesn't necessarily deal with "right" and "wrong" in all cases. The law, in this case, is to protect the prosperity, appreciation, and further development of intellectual property. It doesn't have to be "right" in order to be considered enforceable.

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(pulls out banjo)

Once I met a guy named AKNisely
He liked to pay for software that is pricey
He hates Linux, and he hates MP3
I hope his habits don't grow on me!

He thinks kovan is a pain in the ass
I say "Kovan's cool, I think I'll pass"
He doesn't like jokes and he doesn't like blade
I..(thinks) Wonder if he uses RAID!!!! :D :D



Thank you, thank you, thank you very much...now AK can quote each line from my song and write a 1 paragraph argument on it ;) ;)

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(pulls out banjo)

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Bloody hell....

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He liked to pay for software that is pricey

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It's only pricey because you're cheap.

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He hates Linux, and he hates MP3

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I haven't said anything of the sort. I love MP3's and Linux is... moderately... acceptable.

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I hope his habits don't grow on me!

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You're just an impressionable kid.

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He thinks kovan is a pain in the ass

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Yep.

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I say "Kovan's cool, I think I'll pass"

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Feable attempts at rhyming.

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He doesn't like jokes and he doesn't like blade

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Who? Oh that guy. Yeah, he's okay.

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I..(thinks) Wonder if he uses RAID!!!!

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Only on the server; but hardware on the server really doesn't count for you, does it?

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Bloody hell....

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Suffer the consequences of my banjo
I 0wn j00 and you are a man-ho!

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It's only pricey because you're cheap.

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I'm 15 so I can't find much work
$600 is a lot of money,and Office XP is a real perk..

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I haven't said anything of the sort. I love MP3's and Linux is... moderately... acceptable.

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Oh so you love MP3s
Did you rip them all from CDs?

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You're just an impressionable kid.

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Your habits ain't growing on me...
I want to get what I can get for free

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Yep.

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Well I think he's funny. and his car 0wnz
So I don't care to hear your moans

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Feable attempts at rhyming.

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Are you rhyming? I don't think so
Take a spelling test (feeble, not feable) and hire a ho! :D :D

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Who? Oh that guy. Yeah, he's okay.

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Oh, i thought you said you didn't like him. he rules
But when they all see me, everyone drools!

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Only on the server; but hardware on the server really doesn't count for you, does it? [/B]

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Just because (a p3 xeon 700) works on a server best
Doesn't mean it can excell at the rest

(what's the server for?)

Here's my opinion:

Most of the stuff I have is either shareware or cracked. When I think the people that made the program desirve (sp?) it, and if the price is reasonable (my limit is about 50 dollars) - I will gladly buy it. I'd do it more often if I had enough money, but since I'm 15 and the only money I have is the money my parents give me for lunch... :D

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Did you rip them all from CDs?

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Yes.

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Just because (a p3 xeon 700) works on a server best
Doesn't mean it can excell at the rest

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Anything with a PIII Xeon will beat Athlon hands down.

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(what's the server for?)

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File and printer sharing and directory services.

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Originally posted by aknisely
Anything with a PIII Xeon will beat Athlon hands down.

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Oh get real! Maybe for servers, but SETI crunching, Photoshop, games, you name it, the athlon beats it.

And besides, Xeons are $1000 anyway..

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread....hreadid=211900

DOESN"T THIS EXPLAIN IT???????? These guys are smarter than u about hardware and i am probably also

http://www.quitesufficient.com/stopcrack.jpg

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Oh get real! Maybe for servers, but SETI crunching, Photoshop, games, you name it, the athlon beats it.

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Yeah, I guess you're right, seeing as how you've done all sorts of extensive testing and have come to a data-oriented conclusion. By the way, using Photoshop with a Xeon is pushing it, though not inconcievable. Games, absolutely not; what a waste of money.

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And besides, Xeons are $1000 anyway.

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Not that you'd pay for it anyway.

You know what I hate, people who pretend they know **** but they don't. Maybe a similarly clocked Xeon would beat at these tasks..but with a 100% speed gap, with certain situations, a Xeon wouldn't cut it agains the Athlon.

Some times you just gotta laugh and walk away.

*laughs*

And you might know what I mean by "walk away".:rolleyes:

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DOESN"T THIS EXPLAIN IT???????? These guys are smarter than u about hardware and i am probably also

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They (and you) apparently have little knowledge or experience of high performance systems. Nothing's wrong with that, you just haven't worked with that kind of thing before. This isn't a matter of "AMD vs. Intel," so stop trying to defend The Little Guy everytime. When you're dealing with IT, you do what's best for the company with a reasonable budget, and anyone you've talked to will tell you that an Athlon simply isn't powerful enough for a Xeon. As I said before, like taking a sumo wrestler and putting him against a 9-year-old girl.

On a side note, posting pictures of Hitler isn't a very good way to get your point across.

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You know what I hate, people who pretend they know **** but they don't

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Me too. What experience did you say you had with the Xeon?

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Originally posted by aknisely
[B]They (and you) apparently have little knowledge or experience of high performance systems.

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Different systems are designed for different tasks...in the desktop segment, yes, the Athlon IS the end-all.

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Nothing's wrong with that, you just haven't worked with that kind of thing before. This isn't a matter of "AMD vs. Intel," so stop trying to defend The Little Guy everytime.

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Eh, wake up dude, Athlon is superior to the Pentium 4, even when the p4 is clocked higher.

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When you're dealing with IT, you do what's best for the company with a reasonable budget, and anyone you've talked to will tell you that an Athlon simply isn't powerful enough for a Xeon. As I said before, like taking a sumo wrestler and putting him against a 9-year-old girl.

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And WHO Said we were talking about the IT industry?

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On a side note, posting pictures of Hitler isn't a very good way to get your point across.

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I think you have no sense of humor.

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Me too. What experience did you say you had with the Xeon?

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I don't need to have hands on experience, I've heard from many many people who HAVE had hands on experience with the Xeon. And I can tell you this right now, the Xeon is without a doubt good in the server environment, but the desktop segment is quite another story.

the world is made up of a helluva lot more than IT.

tell you what, let's stop trampling on this topic. Let's see how you can handle the guys at [h]ardforum ( www.hardforum.com ). I'm sure they'll have quite a bit of fun with your views.

Sign up, I'll be waiting.

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Different systems are designed for different tasks...in the desktop segment, yes, the Athlon IS the end-all.

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No it isn't, stop making things up. Xeon wins the desktop as well; you don't see it that often because its far too expensive. It's like getting the sumo wrestler to beat up the 9-year-old girl after she took a piece of your candy.

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Eh, wake up dude, Athlon is superior to the Pentium 4, even when the p4 is clocked higher.

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The Pentium III Xeon is superior to the Pentium IV.

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And WHO Said we were talking about the IT industry?

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That's likely the only place where you would find Xeons. That, and the industrial industry.

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I think you have no sense of humor.

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It isn't funny.

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I don't need to have hands on experience

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Therein lies your problem. You read what others write, you listen to what others say; that only carries you so far.

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And I can tell you this right now, the Xeon is without a doubt good in the server environment, but the desktop segment is quite another story.

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It's the same processor, the same instructions. The reason you don't find it on desktops (that 99% of people buy, anway) is because an Athlon or a Pentium IV will get the job done without spending an extra $800 when you're likely not going to see a performance difference.

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Originally posted by aknisely
No it isn't, stop making things up. Xeon wins the desktop as well; you don't see it that often because its far too expensive. It's like getting the sumo wrestler to beat up the 9-year-old girl after she took a piece of your candy.

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yes, considering we had a 1.4ghz Xeon vs a 1.4 Athlon, the Xeon would send the Athlon flying. but some tasks rely highly on CPU clock speed, so a 32-bit chip running at half the speed of another 32 bit chip..i noted 32 bit chip because a 700 Itanium or a 700 G4, both 64 bit chips, would kick the p3 xeon 700 and the Athlon 1.4.

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The Pentium III Xeon is superior to the Pentium IV.

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Agreed.

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That's likely the only place where you would find Xeons. That, and the industrial industry.

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Right, but for a desktop system, the priorities are not how many users it can support, etc...it is how fast it can do Photoshop, play games, encode mp3s, render video, etc. these tasks require CPU speed (i know sub 1ghz macs beat athlons at photoshop, but they are 64 bit chips) and therefore the cache can only go so far...example, if you have a 200mhz pentium with a 16mb cache, it's still a 200mhz pentium, and doesn't automatically make it all-superior to a 1ghz P3, for instance..

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Therein lies your problem. You read what others write, you listen to what others say; that only carries you so far.

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well outside the IT industry have you had experience with an Athlon?

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It's the same processor, the same instructions. The reason you don't find it on desktops (that 99% of people buy, anway) is because an Athlon or a Pentium IV will get the job done without spending an extra $800 when you're likely not going to see a performance difference.

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Yes, yes, the extra cache is definitely an enhancement, of course, but for CERTAIN TASKS most tailored to desktops, the extra CPU speed is more important than cache.

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it is how fast it can do Photoshop, play games, encode mp3s, render video, etc. these tasks require CPU speed

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The reason a Xeon is much faster than other processors is because it has up to 2MB of L2 cache. Therefore, repetitive tasks run blazingly fast; as a result:

-Photoshop: for most projects, you'd probably do without cache. Producing or rendering 3-D video is quite the opposite.
-Play games: most games are rendered on the spot, and generating entirely new images constantly. As a result, most computers found in computer cafes are Celerons or Durons.
-Encode MP3s: Very repetitive process. I haven't tried it, but I'd predict that an MP3 would encode at maximum compression at less than a quarter of the speed it takes on a desktop processor.
-Render video: again, very repetitive. In fact, the film Shrek was rendered entirely on one thousand PIII Xeon 700's; incidentally, all running Linux.

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well outside the IT industry have you had experience with an Athlon?

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Yes. You're trying to deviate the question because you've realized I'm right.

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Yes, yes, the extra cache is definitely an enhancement, of course, but for CERTAIN TASKS most tailored to desktops, the extra CPU speed is more important than cache.

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I highly doubt that tasks like that are very common.

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Originally posted by aknisely
[B]The reason a Xeon is much faster than other processors is because it has up to 2MB of L2 cache

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Again, you can tack on all the cache you want but the processor still lacks clock speed. As i said before, tack a 16mb cache on a 200Pentium and it's still not a 1.4 Athlon, it's a 200 pentium. It also works in reverse, a 10ghz CPU with a 16K L2 cache won't stack up to any of the CPUs mentioned.

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-Photoshop: for most projects, you'd probably do without cache. Producing or rendering 3-D video is quite the opposite.

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OK.

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-Play games: most games are rendered on the spot, and generating entirely new images constantly. As a result, most computers found in computer cafes are Celerons or Durons.

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I have no idea what the computer cafe statement has to do with anything, but OK.

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-Encode MP3s: Very repetitive process. I haven't tried it, but I'd predict that an MP3 would encode at maximum compression at less than a quarter of the speed it takes on a desktop processor.

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Neither of us can be sure about how the Xeon would handle it..

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-Render video: again, very repetitive. In fact, the film Shrek was rendered entirely on one thousand PIII Xeon 700's; incidentally, all running Linux.

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First of all, everyone knows G4s are better at video rendering than anything. I heard the movie Titanic was rendered on a bunch of G4s.

Secondly, I am not talking about hollywood movies though, i'm talking about DV camcorder movies, etc..besides, it makes more sense to use Xeons for that purpose, as there are probably 4 or 8 CPU Xeon boards. Athlons max out at 2.

[/quote]

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Yes. You're trying to deviate the question because you've realized I'm right.

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Ehh..you're not right dude.

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I highly doubt that tasks like that are very common.

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I beg to differ, I will do some more research and get back to you. For the time being I have better things to do =)

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I have no idea what the computer cafe statement has to do with anything, but OK.

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Computer cafes are where people go to play games for an afternoon and don't have the strength for a LAN party.

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Neither of us can be sure about how the Xeon would handle it..

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No, but compression, encryption, anything requiring mathematical repitition would benefit highly from more cache. Of course, using a Xeon for encoding MP3s is a bit trivial.

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First of all, everyone knows G4s are better at video rendering than anything. I heard the movie Titanic was rendered on a bunch of G4s.

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Your first problem was defined in two words: "everyone knows." You can't always rely on what "everyone knows." Second, Titanic wasn't an animated film, Shrek was.

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Originally posted by aknisely
Computer cafes are where people go to play games for an afternoon and don't have the strength for a LAN party.

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Oh... i usually don't head for the city and i've never been to a computer cafe, i thought people just surfed the net on em :)

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No, but compression, encryption, anything requiring mathematical repitition would benefit highly from more cache. Of course, using a Xeon for encoding MP3s is a bit trivial.

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OK

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Your first problem was defined in two words: "everyone knows." You can't always rely on what "everyone knows." Second, Titanic wasn't an animated film, Shrek was.

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Good point there. I wasn't talking about 3d rendering, I was more referring to video rendering, as in once you have the raw video then you apply the effects, and you make it into one movie...



Simply put, you will see a performance increase in some tasks with the Xeon on a desktop, and some tasks lke games and stuff will have more of an advantage with the higher clock speed of desktop CPUs. But, nobody uses Xeons for desktops.

At the moment, Intel clearly wins in the server market (althouhg I think AMD's new 64 bit chip could change all that..)

AMD clearly wins in the desktop market, as the Athlon is superior to any offering by Intel in this market. So therefore, from a desktop user and enthusiast, AMD "rules".

Any disagreements?

I really don't have the time to argue at the moment, I'm sort of tired now. Good night and talk to you tomorrow.

Let's see if we can have a 2nd opninon on this...:)

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Oh... i usually don't head for the city and i've never been to a computer cafe, i thought people just surfed the net on em

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Even so, you don't need an Athlon 1.4 to surf the net :)

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But, nobody uses Xeons for desktops.

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Outside of people who download and compute satellite data (which is becoming more of a server-oriented task anyway) and people working for special gov't things like the NSA and NASA, you're right.

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Any disagreements?

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Not anymore, you seem to have conceded to most of my arguments.:D