What is Your take on what Jesus Said?

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If monkey was evaluated to man, how come there are sill monkey around?

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I presume you meant to say 'Evolved' as opposed to 'Evaluated'? This is a misconception of evolutionary theory. We DID NOT evolve from monkeys. Monkey's DID NOT evolve from humans. Humans and Monkeys evolved from the same species (different to both modern humans and monkeys) that is now extinct.

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i know there is atoms,
i cant see them
BUT I KNOW they are there

smell - if you smell something
you KNOW there is the smell
you cant SEE the proof
but you can FEEL the proof

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You cannot see atoms but you can do experiments that detect and reveal their existance.

Although we cannot see or hear smells, we can detect minute particles in the air that cause the smell.

The same goes for pain. We cannot see the 'pain' itself but we can detect nerve signals travelling from the pain center to the brain.

All the above are detectable (albiet indirectly) phenomena. Can the same be said for God? Belief in God is pure faith and cannot be supported by indirect detection.

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Who made the earth? Who made the Universe?
Surely It can't be by luck that we are here.
So There must me god. And God Made Us! And That's The Fact!

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If you can believe that God has always been here (and wasn't created by anything else) then why can you not accept the possibility that the universe was always here?

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I believe that science and religion can coexist. People keep trying to find places where science disproves what is said in the bible, but this isn't the way we should be looking at it.

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I agree with this. Science sets out to understand the rules of nature. Religion sets out to achieve spiritual harmony. Never the twain should meet. If everbody realised this there would be a lot less argument. The rules of nature will never yield spiritual fulfillment. Biblical stories will never be a valid objection to scientific theories.

Brainless words. Forget I wrote something here.

Religion - the biggest killer in history. Period. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and others should respect them and leave them to get on with their lives. All the worlds problems come from people who interpret books like the bible. Wars are started because some scholar says that line such and such in the holy book translates to "Kill all heathens". Where do you think we learnt about racism in the first place ? I'm not blaming god, I'm blaming the so called wise men who translate god's words.

Let me ask a question - God's supposed to be a good guy right ? If that's the case do you think he'd wants to dictate every action you take in your entire life ? Does he want you to spend your entire life in misery, thinking you're a sinner ? Or is it more likely that god gave man freewill so that he can enjoy his life ? What's the point in life if you're too afraid to live it ? Religion has been used to frighten the masses and keep them in line too long.

He just wants you to believe in him and respect those around you. Not much to ask is it ?

I've used he in these rantings but it could easily be she or even it.

Do I believe in God ? Yes, i think so but not organised religion - that's for brainwashing the masses to accept what they're being told.

Right, that's my bit over with.

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Religion - the biggest killer in history. Period. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and others should respect them and leave them to get on with their lives. All the worlds problems come from people who interpret books like the bible. Wars are started because some scholar says that line such and such in the holy book translates to "Kill all heathens".

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That's a little harsh. Did religion cause WWII ? It was idealism and an intolerance of others that caused that war.

I don't think it is intrinsic in religion to cause wars. It is the absolution with which beliefs are held that leads to intolerance. It is malicious people interpreting holy text's to their own ends that leads people to war.

If people took a little more heed of what Jesus said regarding the judgment of others, the world would be a much better place. :)

Simon, I think that's what I said so I agree with you totally. The thing about religion being the biggest killer is a fact, not my rantings. WWII was a drop in the ocean compared with the millions that have died over thousands of years, right up to today. I'm not diminishing the effects of WWII here before anyone has a pop. It's just small fry by comparison.

There is no proof of God...or even that Jesus was REALLY the son of God. Yes there was a man named Jesus...Yes there is a bible.

Just to be on the TOTAL other side...

How Do you know that the Bible isnt just a "book"..it is a great 'Story' (yes I have read some of it) but maybe thats all it is...a great Story!

and Look at the con men today? how do we know that jesus wasnt some Con man and 'Illusionist' that made people think he was something special!??

(I know..thats a little far fetched)

but I have a hard time believing in god...when so many bad things happen in this world.

I believe in Fate...Everything from the time we are born till we die is written out....that is the path we follow.

IMHO :D

I also dont quite believe in Evolution either though...there is enough oddities to disprove things...so really

I DONT KNOW WHAT THE HELL (which doesnt exist) TO BELIEVE! LOL!

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WWII was a drop in the ocean compared with the millions that have died over thousands of years

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There has never been in the history of man a war like WWII. Never before have so many died in a single war. Never before was there fighting on every continent as it was the first real world war.

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I believe in Fate...Everything from the time we are born till we die is written out....that is the path we follow.

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I've always asked people (who believe in fate) why they don't just jump off a cliff? It they manage it and get smashed to bits when they hit the bottom, it was fate so they couldn't have avoided it anyway. If it is fate that they shouldn't die, something will surely happen to prevent it?

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I also dont quite believe in Evolution either though...there is enough oddities to disprove things...so really

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If you want to see evolution in action, just observe a bacterial or viral population evolve before your very eyes. Their life spans are so small that many generations pass in a (relatively) small amount of time. Why do you think antibiotics are becomming less and less effective? The strains of bacteria that are left after the rest are killed pass on their resistance to a new generation and this resistance is propegated.

How can anyone say it is just a theory with evidence like this?

I dont think they were saying a single war simon more the fact that over centuries religion has killed far more people then anything else all because 2 twats in what they call the house of god reckon forcing ppl to believe in what they believe in is a good idea.

This comes too my point that Churches are all about the control of masses of people and power. I really cant comprehend God wanting us to say this is a church thats were you will find god and religion but elsewhere it's ok. Bollocks if there's god he wants you do be out helping ppl or having a good time or something not in a church. Gods everywhere not in a church a church is a symbol. But dont let the vatican here you say that they'll start a war!

I agree simon evidence of evolution is all around us!
E.g What did we do b4 we talked? We evolved to comunicate with voices!

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Originally posted by simonm


There has never been in the history of man a war like WWII. Never before have so many died in a single war. Never before was there fighting on every continent as it was the first real world war.

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Er, actually, I always thought that alot more people died in WW I ...... I could be wrong, but thats what I remember learning.

Anyway, lets look at religions greatest hits (as far as I can remember them)

The Crusades, The "conversion" of South America to Christianity, All the British/Spanish/French battles since Henry the Eight got ex-communicated and started the Protestant faith (I think??), the Spartans and the Persians (both inspired by religous visions to conquer/repel the other), hey, and they're just off the top of my head, I'm sure I've missed some stonkers.

SD

Beacon,
You said that there is strong evidence of evolution. What if evolution was just God's tool? What if he set everything up so His creatures would just evolve and maybe tweaked a few things along the way? The bible doesn't explain exactly how He created everything. That's not why it was made.

If we evolved, aren't we supposed to develop adaptations and stuff as we need them? If so, why do we have brains with so much more capacity than we need? (I'm referring to all those statistics that state the we only use X percent of our brain.)


If Jesus was just a con man, then he was surely the greatest con man of all time.

The bible contains many predictions for the future that came true many years after they were written. And it even has some things foretold for now and the future as well. It is much more than just a storybook. Also, the things that happened in the bible completely agree with archaeology. What proof is there that it is just a collection of stories?

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Er, actually, I always thought that alot more people died in WW I ...... I could be wrong, but thats what I remember learning.

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I don't think more people did die in WWI. Although many soldiers died in pointless charges at enenmy trenches, it simply wasn't on the same scale as WWII.
Besides, WWI wasn't a religous war either.

All I'm saying here is that it is not religion itself that causes wars, it is the intolerant ideology (that often goes hand in hand with religion) that causes wars.

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You said that there is strong evidence of evolution. What if evolution was just God's tool?

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Yes, evolution might be just God's "Tool".
The point we were making is that it's not just a theory. You can see evolution at work all around us. OK, there are many things still left (currently) unexplained about nature (like human brains) but that is hardly reason to dispute the whole theory.

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The bible contains many predictions for the future that came true many years after they were written. And it even has some things foretold for now and the future as well.

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The predictions I have seen are so vague that it is not difficult to interpret them as predictions for subsequant events.

It always amazes me how easily Christians accept the "predictions" in the bible. If the future is predetermined (as it must be in order for predictions to exist) then surely that negates the possibility of free will (also a belief that christians hold dear)? How are we free to create our own destiny if it is already known to God?

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Originally posted by simonm


I don't think more people did die in WWI. Although many soldiers died in pointless charges at enenmy trenches, it simply wasn't on the same scale as WWII.
Besides, WWI wasn't a religous war either.

All I'm saying here is that it is not religion itself that causes wars, it is the intolerant ideology (that often goes hand in hand with religion) that causes wars.

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Ok correct me if i am wrong, but didn't Hitler start the war by 'clensing' the world of Jews? If that ain't religious then i don't know what is.

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Originally posted by simonm


I don't think more people did die in WWI. Although many soldiers died in pointless charges at enenmy trenches, it simply wasn't on the same scale as WWII.

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Yip. I just checked it up on the web and you're quite right, more people died in WWII than WWI. I stand corrected :)

SD

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Originally posted by Jamagei


Ok correct me if i am wrong, but didn't Hitler start the war by 'clensing' the world of Jews? If that ain't religious then i don't know what is.

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Mmmm, yes, but it wasn't driven by Hitlers religon, so religon didn't really 'cause them to be killed. He was merely using a group of people to divert the frustrations and violence of the German people away from the government and onto an easily identifiable group of people.

It might have as easily been blacks, people with green eyes or brown hair. It's just that there were the right amount of Jews within Germany to serve his political purpose.

SD

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Ok correct me if i am wrong, but didn't Hitler start the war by 'clensing' the world of Jews? If that ain't religious then i don't know what is.

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No, he didn't start the war by clensing the world of Jews. He started the war by invading one too many of his neighbouring countries. He hated them as a race (like he hated the Russians) and not for their religion. He didn't believe he was on a holy mission.

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Yip. I just checked it up on the web and you're quite right, more people died in WWII than WWI. I stand corrected

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Nice to know someone's checking up on me! :rolleyes:

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The predictions I have seen are so vague that it is not difficult to interpret them as predictions for subsequant events.

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Isaiah named Cyrus as the person who would conquer Babylon and allow the israelites to rebuild the temple over one and a half centuries before he even came to power. (See Isaiah 44:28)

Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. In Luke 21:20-22, he says to leave Jerusalem when armies encamp around it. In the year 66, the Romans came and surrounded Jerusalem. Then they left for four years. During this time, nobody in Jerusalem knew they would be coming back. Everyone who listened to Jesus left. Then the Romans came back and seiged and eventually invaded the city. (Also look at Luke 19:43)

I don't think those are so vague.

About Evolution:
My knowledge on evolution is sketchy, so I can't really say too much about it. But it seems to me that it can still be wrong, because it still is a theory. But there does seem to be much proof of it.

It seems to me that evolution describes how animals/creatures change over time. But I don't think it describes how life started out, which is the critical point we need to look at. There is no proof that the first life form, whatever it was, couldn't have been created. And there is no proof, as far as I know, against the idea that the first humans were directly created.

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If the future is predetermined (as it must be in order for predictions to exist) then surely that negates the possibility of free will (also a belief that christians hold dear)? How are we free to create our own destiny if it is already known to God?

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I don't agree with that. The future is not predetermined and we definitely have free will, but the predictions do come true. There are many occasions of the bible that proves this. Do you think God chose to have Satan deceive the first man and woman? And do you think He would've made Satan if He knew Satan would rebel and oppose Him?

The way I see it, God can see what will happen. Sometimes He directly influences events. (Such as helping a nation win a war) Other times, he simply can forsee what people will do. Why wouldn't He be able to? He did create us, after all. Though it does seem that sometimes, people can do things that God doesn't expect. There have been kings of Israel that God later regretted appointing, for example.

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Originally posted by Tygur


Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem. In Luke 21:20-22, he says to leave Jerusalem when armies encamp around it. In the year 66, the Romans came and surrounded Jerusalem. Then they left for four years. During this time, nobody in Jerusalem knew they would be coming back. Everyone who listened to Jesus left. Then the Romans came back and seiged and eventually invaded the city. (Also look at Luke 19:43)

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Wasn't the bible written over an extended period of time. Couldn't this have been written after the event as further "proof"?

SD

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Originally posted by alex_read
you lot take religion too seriously, when the bible is just a storey book & there's no proof that any of this crap exists.

I am God.
well, disprove me !

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Your clearly not an aussie, hence you can't be god:cool:

Tygur:
The bible reads something similar to this: (sorry i'm not upto date with my biblical numbers etc.)

Adam was created from the ground and Eve was created from adam!

Science has found that the first 2 cells that started the human evolution came from the ocean.
Taken from some New Scientist i was reading.

I also disagree with predictions etc. in the bible surely isnt it just how the bible was interpreted by many a person.
It's all to do with how the bible was written and how you interpret it's words!
Was it meant to be taken so seriously or just some well written advice on how best to lead your life! E.g Ten Commandments etc.

Tygur Give me proof that it's not just a collection of short stories!

Also whomever wrote about archaelogical proof to my knowledge no substancial proof has been found!
But i'm ready to be proved wrong.

on a run..
if anyone has any questions directly for me
please repost them
i dont have time to read this thread..
do repost questions that are directly for me

thanks
i will get back to you with answers to them


kovan,

nah kovan you aint missed anything directly at you i dont think!

It basically got caught on how religion kills most people in history more than WW2 and Evolution someones saying it's gods tool and jethro stated Gods an Auusie which is true!

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Wasn't the bible written over an extended period of time. Couldn't this have been written after the event as further "proof"?

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The bible was written in books. Each book was written by a different person. The book of Isaiah was completed at about 732 BC by the prophet Isaiah. According to britannica.com, Cyrus wasn't born until sometime between 590 and 580 BC.

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The bible reads something similar to this: (sorry i'm not upto date with my biblical numbers etc.)

Adam was created from the ground and Eve was created from adam!

Science has found that the first 2 cells that started the human evolution came from the ocean.
Taken from some New Scientist i was reading.

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The bible does state that God made the frst man and then the first woman. The bible also says that God built Adam's rib into a woman. There is nothing against this. Yes, scientists do claim that the first living cells did originate in the ocean (I think they called it the primordial soup or something), but scientists don't claim that people formed right then. Also, they are having a hard time proving that those first cells could've formed. However, Scientists are claiming that all people living today did originate with one couple. (more specifically, the magazine, which might've been Popular Science, said that everyone came from one woman)

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It's all to do with how the bible was written and how you interpret it's words!

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The bible is a large collection of smaller books. It is very hard to reinterpret and twist the meanings of one part of the bible without clashing with some other part. In other words, I find it hard to believe that there are many different ways of interpreting one part of the bible without having to ignore other parts.

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Tygur Give me proof that it's not just a collection of short stories!

Also whomever wrote about archaelogical proof to my knowledge no substancial proof has been found!

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Well, Cyrus did indeed attack Babylon and the bible does tell of it.

Here are some things I found in a book, titled "The Bible - God's Word or Man's":

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According to the book of Daniel, the last ruler in Babylon before it fell to the Persians was named Belshazzar. (Daniel 5:1-30) Since there appeared to be no mention of Belshazzar outside the Bible, the charge was made that the Bible was wrong and that this man never existed. But during the 19th century, several small cylinders inscribed in cuneiform were discovered in some ruins in southern Iraq. They were found to include a prayer for the health of the eldest son of Nabonidus, king of Babylon. The name of this son? Belshazzar.

So there was a Belshazzar! Was he a king, though, when Babylon fell? Most documents subsequently found referred to him as the son of the king, the crown prince. But a cuneiform document described as the "Verse Account of Nabonidus" shed more light on Belshazzar's true position. It reported: "He [Nabonidus] entrusted the 'Camp' to his oldest (son), the firstborn, the troops everywhere in the country he ordered under his (command). He let (everything) go, he entrusted the kingship to him." 8 So Belshazzar was entrusted with the kingship. Surely, to all intents and purposes that made him a king! This relationship between Belshazzar and his father, Nabonidus, explains why Belshazzar, during that final banquet in Babylon, offered to make Daniel the third ruler in the kingdom. (Daniel 5:16) Since Nabonidus was the first ruler, Belshazzar himself was only the second ruler of Babylon.

..I skipped some stuff here..

Later on, Israel and Judah became two nations, and Israel conquered the neighboring land of Moab. At one time Moab, under King Mesha, revolted, and Israel formed an alliance with Judah and the neighboring kingdom of Edom to war against Moab. (2 Kings 3:4-27) Remarkably, in 1868 in Jordan, a stela (a carved stone slab) was discovered that was inscribed in the Moabite language with Mesha's own account of this conflict.

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I can present more quotes from there, too.

Er Tygur, even fiction sometimes uses historic events to help out in the plotline. Thinking anything by James A Michener or Tom Clancy. Therefore the fact that the Bible does record a historic event, does not necessarily mean that it is not fiction.

well said jethro!

Tygur: It still was interpreted by 1) The writer 2) The reader you cannot deny this!

If i write: Jethro's a ****!
You can 1) interpret it as an insult OR
2) Interpret it as a joke!

A book, scripture whatever will always be subject to the authors views, beliefs and opinions!

I cannot see archaelogical proof of the Ark existing etc.

You provided proof of certain people existing!

*peak a booo*

Er, l'm going to take it as a joke:)

I think kovans on some of those biblical drugs again jethro;)

Just an example if i said someone else they'd could go off there nut! I knew you had a sense of humour!

Naughty kovan, naughty naughty kovan, you know not to put that white stuff up your nose. You only end up naked, with a feather duster in your date, claiming you are the great wahoo bird. And this time l am not coming to bail you out. No kovan put that duster down.......

Actually, I was proving the archaeology bit, too. I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone, but I guess that didn't work out.

There is a full family line between Jesus and Adam listed in the bible, if that'll satisfy you. There are many other parts of the bible that also get just as detailed, such as the building of the ark. I can tell you the size and shape of the ark. I can also tell you when the flood came.

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Therefore the fact that the Bible does record a historic event, does not necessarily mean that it is not fiction

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Yes, that is true. But it does mean that the bible could be non-fiction. Why don't you try to prove that it is fiction?

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Tygur: It still was interpreted by 1) The writer 2) The reader you cannot deny this!

If i write: Jethro's a ****!
You can 1) interpret it as an insult OR
2) Interpret it as a joke!

A book, scripture whatever will always be subject to the authors views, beliefs and opinions!

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When something is written, the author intends on putting his own views in it. So the writing would actually be the author's views or beliefs. Then the reader comes along and reads what is written. Now, it is certainly possible for the reader to get the wrong idea from whatever is written, but that doesn't change the meaning the words were originally meant for. The reader that is misinterpreting the words is simply wrong.

Now, how would someone know if the reader is wrong? You'd have to do research and find out more of what is going on. In your example, you're calling Jethro a ****. How would someone know whether you're serious or not? They can look at the context. If it's right after a huge rant, you're probably serious. If there's a smiley right after it, you're probably kidding. Also, someone can find out more about you and Jethro to see if you two are on good terms or if you two hate each other. You still had your original meaning, no matter how it gets interpreted.

Likewise with the bible, how would you know how to interpret parts of it? You have to do much research on the rest of the bible. For example, if you look at how I interpreted what Jesus said in the scripture that started this whole thread, you'll see that I based what I said on other parts of the bible.

It is very much possible for the bible to be misinterpreted. Religions that believe in heaven and hell do it all the time.

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I cannot see archaelogical proof of the Ark existing etc.

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Can you tell me how archaeological proof of the ark can be found? The thing was made of wood. Archaeology is very limited. Can you prove to me that it didn't exist?

Therefore the bible should be translated to include smilies!:p

Just because it's wood doesnt mean it doesnt exist!
Wooden tools and other ailments have survived many a century!
I'm not saying it didnt exist! I'm saying that something similar to the ark or if the ark was found it would add more substanence to the story!

And the bible does say in Genesis that the "world" was flooded!
But i take it Naoh didnt know the whole world so it only meant his world i interpret!

More on the ark:

According to Gen. 6:15 the ark was 450feet long the longest ship built out of wood using modern techniques is 300ft these ships have to have Iron re-enforcing and constant pumping because they leak so badly. It's not enough to make a ship that big it has to be able to stretch and wood isnt strong enough to compensate to the ever changing stresses!

How did he gather all the animals?
Noah had only seven days to load the Ark (Gen. 7:4-10). If only 15764 animals were aboard the Ark (see section 3), one animal must have been loaded every 38 seconds.
Plus all the animals would of have to of lived near by which is unlikely because the climate would have too suit every animal and if they travelled to noah how did say a koala bring it's special dietary requirments in a microwavable can perhaps!;)

Where'd the water go?

Plus if the world flooded then how did the polar ice caps re-grow!
They would of floated in the mass flood!

hmmmmmmmmmmm

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The future is not predetermined and we definitely have free will, but the predictions do come true. There are many occasions of the bible that proves this. Do you think God chose to have Satan deceive the first man and woman? And do you think He would've made Satan if He knew Satan would rebel and oppose Him?

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Tell me, how can the future not be predetermined if God knows what's going to happen? Furthermore, if God knows what is going to happen, he must have deliberately intended everything that has and will ever happen!

Think about it. At the moment of creation, God with his allknowing omnipotence could see all the paths of future consequances laid out before him and to him they were as easy to read as a book. If he created things slightly differently, he could have prevented Satan from rebelling or the fall of Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden.

If he exists outside of time (as many christians suggest) and he is trully omnipotent, not only must free-will be an illusion but everything is as it is through his intent.

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It seems to me that evolution describes how animals/creatures change over time. But I don't think it describes how life started out, which is the critical point we need to look at.

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Evolution does not even attempt to explain how the first life form began. It attempts to explain what happened after that. There are theories on how life could have started up on it's own but they are, as you would put it, mere theories.

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Let me ask a question - God's supposed to be a good guy right ? If that's the case do you think he'd wants to dictate every action you take in your entire life ? ... Or is it more likely that god gave man freewill so that he can enjoy his life ? What's the point in life if you're too afraid to live it ?

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Originally posted by Beacon

According to Gen. 6:15 the ark was 450feet long

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This is an interesting point. If he saved 2 of every animal, I very much doubt if they would have fitted unless the ark was much wider than it was long ????? How many decks did it have, where did they store the food for 40 days for all the animals? Who cleaned out all the sh*t? How was it powered? If it wasn't powered then it would just be drifting and in the initial stages of the flood this would mean that it would be constantly bumping into rocks and outcroppings and hills. If only two of every animal survived what did the carnoivours eat after the ark had landed and the floods subsided. (Any dead meat would be too far decayed after 40 days in fresh water). So all the lions etc would have had to refrain from eating until all the antelope etc. had a chance to breed. And even at that it is unlikely that they would be able to sustain the food chain as it is a triangle with meat eaters being at the top. i.e. There always needs to be a lot more prey than predators.

Just some thoughts. Anyone got any answers?

SD

OK, I have no qualms...I am a complete fan of God. Why? Think about it.

1. There is someone out there who has made everything. It was originally perfect but got screwed, but this is good (more later)

2. This guy is in 100% control. In english: even if life sucks, he's still around to help out.

3. He WANTS LIKE HECK to be our friends. Imagine being able to ask anything in the world of the President of the United States, and get it just because you're his friend. Now imagine the guy who made everything and controls it all {for the best}...and have the same kind of friendship.

4. Now about this evil and "why can God allow bad stuff if he's so loving blah blah blah"
Its like commodity trading: nothing bad ever happens, and nothing is worth anything. That's the way it is with God. If we were made to do everything right and be "good little people" we would be like robots. Rather than forcing us to obey, he has given us free will. Imagine a special person who you love more than anything else. Now imagine that you have a choice: you can either force them to love you in return, or allow them to choose. If they choose freely to love you back, isn't it much more valuable than knowing that they only hang out with you because you made them? If we could not experience bad things, we wouldn't understand the lengths that God has gone to in order to bring us back to him.

If you can still choose after this to believe that you die and have no reason to exist and evolved from some bullcrap monkey ancestor, I pity and pray for you.

Now if Jesus was just a good man, he would not have dared to make the ultimate heresy (claiming to be God's Son) So either he was a deranged criminal or he was really who he said he was.

Take your pick.

I, for one, will stand by my claim. If you can refute this, please do so. I would love to hear from you.

Actuall Mlewis, I don't need or want your pity. It is very arrogant of you to assume that you are in a better position. I respect your beliefs, that is good for you, it helps you get through life.

I don't believe in god. That does not in anyway make my life less meaningfull. You have yet to post an argument that god actually exists. If all you have is blind faith, then how can you expect me to believe.

If you prove god exists, and god has gone to such great pains to avoid giving aboslute proof of his existence, then that means you have outsmarted god, which by all accounts is impossible. Therefore you cannot prove absolutely to someone that god exists.

Therefore it comes down to my word against yours. I'm sorry, I'm sure you're a very upstanding person, but in these cases I always make a point of siding with myself :)

SD

Don't bother praying for me either. Religious people always claim it makes their life better. It's pretty difficult for me to improve my life at the moment, because believing in God isn't going to help me get through my exams!

I would really like to hear you prove that God does not exist.

Seriously.

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Now if Jesus was just a good man, he would not have dared to make the ultimate heresy (claiming to be God's Son) So either he was a deranged criminal or he was really who he said he was.

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The were hundreds of people going round claiming to be prophets or gods or whatever at the time (there still is) so he was not unique in that sense.

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Rather than forcing us to obey, he has given us free will.

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Have you read my opinions on our "supposed" free-will? It seems there are contradictions between the idea that God knows the future and that we have free will.

How free are we anyway if we get burned in hell for eternity when we don't tow the line? Why did he create us with instincts that lead us to behave in a way that 'hurts' God?

I don't believe we have any 'reason' to exist as such, but that doesn't mean that life is not worth living for.

I would really like to hear you prove that God does not exist.

Seriously.

Praying is just talking. Praying is not a majic spell or some crap like that that makes everything cool. Think of your exams like this:

you have a friend with an encyclopedia head that can recite any fact or formula known to man over known history, sitting next to you and whispering the answers. Essay questions? No problem. Got another friend that's a pro writer, makes the top guys look like kindergardeners. God is both. And as I said above, he WANTS to be there to help you. That is what he is about. Not controlling people or hiding from us.

If he wanted to hide from us, why would he send his son to provide us with a way to re-enter our friendship?

And please do your homework: read Genesis 1-7. It says clearly there that we were created PERFECT. Not with instints to hurt God as you said. Genesis makes it quite evident that the deciet of Satan/the devil/whatever you want to call him convinced the original inhabitants of Earth to disobey God the first time, and because of this we now have a "nature" to do this. But mankind was NOT created this way initially.

Also read the numerous verses in the New Testament: we are to "put off the old man and put on the new" in essence allow God to reshape our evil natures (WHICH WE INHERITED BECAUSE OF ADAM'S SIN) into what we were originally intended to be: a perfect soul mate for God himself.

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Originally posted by mlewis
I would really like to hear you prove that God does not exist.

Seriously.

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Sorry, but I don't think it can be done. Therefore the burden of proof lies with you. This is exactly the same as me saying, "I was abducted by aliens last night". I cannot prove that it happened, and you cannot prove that it didn't. As the "abduction" is an abnormal event, then it would be up to me to provide proof that it happened or otherwise I wouldn't blame people for not believing.

Now transpose this onto your argument. You say God exists, but you can't prove it. I say that given the balance of evidence, that I don't believe you. I don't have to prove that he doesn't exist the onus is on you to prove that he does.

SD

P.S. You haven't answered any of the previous questions (the size of the ark, the fact that god doesn't want you to prove his existance etc.