Well...it doesn't really matter...we're on top of the food chain most of the time :)
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Well...it doesn't really matter...we're on top of the food chain most of the time :)
We'd be no where near the top if it weren't for weapons to mass slaughter animals :p
Nope, gotta disagree with you there. We own it. It's ours until somebody takes it off us. You go out into the Serengetti and try and explain to the lion that you want to share his hunting ground. Most animals don't seem to have any concept of sharing, just of Territory. We can make our Territory where'ever we want. Thats not to say that we should, I am merely pointing out that nobody can stop us. That makes it ours by default. Possesion being 9/10's of the law.Quote:
Originally posted by nullus
SD, we don't own the planet, it's not ours to do with what we want. It belongs to everyone on it. We just dominate it with arrogance.
As for eating cows. I can kill a cow with a bit of wood (spear). Thats evolution for you. Our ancestors have been doing it for thousands of years, we have evolved that way. Why do we not have lots of body hair, because we have evolved wearing fur's. Thats evolution for you again. I'm afraid you cannot escape the fact that it is natural for us to use weapons. Seagulls pick crabs up and drop them from a height so that they smash up on the rocks, they then eat the insides out. That is similar to using a tool. It's using it's brain to overcome an obstacle. Monkeys use sticks to get honey out of bee's nests.
We evolved eating big animals.
SD
Sorry, still disagreeing with ya. ;) No one owns any part of the planet, we can only claim little bits as ours until someone else takes over that little bit. Would you say that humans own the Atlantic ocean, or the Serengetti, or the Amazon jungle? Nope. :)
Ok, if you think it's natural for us to use weapons to get our food, why don't you go out and kill your own cows, pigs, sheep, etc.? Firstly, you wouldn't have a clue how to do it properly (don't you think evolution should have taught you that?), and secondly, a cow or pig would be far too big for your appetite.
Basically, my point all along is that humans don't need meat to survive. They did once, because they were deprived of vegetation (that's how our brain began evolving, from the protein in discarded bones), but we've now evolved to the point where know of alternatives that provide just as much protein, iron, etc. Maybe we'll eventually evolve into herbivores....
And maybe we won't :)
Yip we do. :)Quote:
Originally posted by nullus
Sorry, still disagreeing with ya. ;) No one owns any part of the planet, we can only claim little bits as ours until someone else takes over that little bit. Would you say that humans own the Atlantic ocean, or the Serengetti, or the Amazon jungle?
Er, actually I have killed plenty of deer before (and grollicked them). I would have no problem killing a cow, pig or sheep, and I would store the meat just like our ancestors did. I have been trained by the army to survive in the wilderness, I would have no problem doing what you suggest.Quote:
Originally posted by nullus
Ok, if you think it's natural for us to use weapons to get our food, why don't you go out and kill your own cows, pigs, sheep, etc.? Firstly, you wouldn't have a clue how to do it properly (don't you think evolution should have taught you that?), and secondly, a cow or pig would be far too big for your appetite.
Basically, my point all along is that humans don't need meat to survive. They did once, because they were deprived of vegetation (that's how our brain began evolving, from the protein in discarded bones), but we've now evolved to the point where know of alternatives that provide just as much protein, iron, etc. Maybe we'll eventually evolve into herbivores....
Sorry I can't give you a more reasoned argument, I have to go. I will post a better reply tommorrow, where I hope we can pickup where we left off.
Thanks :)
SD
No we don't. Humans have claimed way too much territory as it is and we're destroying it all. If you shared a flat with someone who totally trashed the place everyday, you'd want them out. No one has the right to trash someone elses home. It's unbelievably arrogant to say that we own it all. It's attitudes like that that make me ashamed to be a member of this species.Quote:
Yip we do. :)
I'm gonna have to contradict myself a bit here (not cos of what you just said, I was just thinking about it last night). I actually don't agree with humans killing animals in any circumstance. I wouldn't be much against it if humans actually needed meat, but they don't. You can easily survive on vegetation like our monkey counterparts. I'd rather starve to death than eat anything that lived.Quote:
Er, actually I have killed plenty of deer before (and grollicked them). I would have no problem killing a cow, pig or sheep, and I would store the meat just like our ancestors did. I have been trained by the army to survive in the wilderness, I would have no problem doing what you suggest.
Morning Nullus! Sorry I'm late - suffering from a bit of a hangover:) I hope your well this morning:)
Okay, we seem to be arguing over two seperate points. So I suggest we takle them one at a time. Firstly possession of the earth.
Where do you draw the line at what can and cannot be possessed. You own your clothes. Why who says so? I assume it's because the person who originally manufactured those clothes sold them to you. He bought the raw materials off somebody else. This person must have owned those raw materials (.i.e. parts of planet earth). By your argument he didn't own them, yet he sold them, therefore you are in possession of stolen goods:D
I have a bit of paper from the Canadian government stating that I own the land my house is on. This is recognised by the government, and the government's authority in this is recognised by every other government in the world. What higher authority decrees that I don't own the land?
Having an expression such as "We don't own the land, we just borrow it from our children"(Yuk) is just an idealistic expression and as far as I'm concerned is a completely bollocks statement. It has no legal validity. I agree it is an arrogant statement to make that we own the planet, but we are an arrogant race. We didn't get to the top of the Earths food chain by being meak and timid. If it helps you can think of us as conquerors of Earth, you may not like the thought, but I'm afraid it's the truth.
SD
Well I totally agree with everything SD said. Except I've never been on the Army. I was in scouts if that helps :rolleyes: Anyway that hasn't left too much for me to say...
I just don't see how you can justify the assumption that humans killing animals in order to eat them is a bad thing. I don't see this as a bad thing, I see it as a natural thing, and to be expected.
Dogs will eat just about anything. Does that mean that dogs are somehow morally wrong when they eat meat, because they don't have to? (Actually I don't know much about a dog's dietary requirements so if dogs aren't proper omnivores that kind of ruins it. Replace 'dog' with a real omnivore's name)
:rolleyes:Code:Replace(sStatement, "Dog", "Human")
So never lived in Student accomodation then:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by nullus
No we don't. Humans have claimed way too much territory as it is and we're destroying it all. If you shared a flat with someone who totally trashed the place everyday, you'd want them out. No one has the right to trash someone elses home. It's unbelievably arrogant to say that we own it all. It's attitudes like that that make me ashamed to be a member of this species.
Actually Chimps have been know to chow down on Monkeys from time to time, (thank you the Discovery channel l knew that would come in useful at some stage).Quote:
I'm gonna have to contradict myself a bit here (not cos of what you just said, I was just thinking about it last night). I actually don't agree with humans killing animals in any circumstance. I wouldn't be much against it if humans actually needed meat, but they don't. You can easily survive on vegetation like our monkey counterparts. I'd rather starve to death than eat anything that lived.
There is also some research to suggest that Planet life has some knowledge of it's own existence, so l am sure there are a number of Brussel Sprouts out there that would disagree with you.
Also your logic is a bit faulty, by your reasoning plant life does not "live". How strange.
And maybe we will if the panty waist small "l" liberal commos have their way. Just thought l would put in the US view.Quote:
Originally posted by parksie
And maybe we won't :)
Hey, yeah, chimps...
Code:Replace(sStatement, "Dog", "Chimp")
Hey, this isn't fair, 4 against 1! :p
SD, like I keep saying: in my eyes, no one owns anything, they can only claim it. Human law isn't a universal thing, therefore, if it says you own something, then you only own it in the eyes of those who recognize that law. It doesn't mean you actually own it.
If a guy sells me something, then he's simply handing over that claim to me, and I'm handing over my claim of some money to him. No one is stealing.
Well maybe we should stop being such an arrogant species and try to grow up and progress ourselves for the first time since we left Africa, rather than just progressing technology and finding new ways to mess this place up.
HarryW, it's not a natural thing for humans to kill for meat. Do you eat meat because you have to, otherwise you'll die? No, you eat it because you like how it tastes. A poor animal has lived a miserable existence, been transported long distances in horrible conditions, bought like an object, and been killed by some loser who has no respect for it. All that so that you can have a tasty meal. It's sad.
Btw, on that argument that you'd prefer a quick death (ie. bolt through the head), than being killed by a lion: I'd much rather live a happy and free life and die painfully, than to live that miserable existence I just described, only so that you can have a quick and easy death. It's a coward's way out.
Jethro, maybe that is the case, but they'd only do that very rarely (like you said, it's only been known to happen), and it can be justified a lot easier than what humans do.
Btw, I'm not a panty waist small person, I'm actually quite well built. Vegetarianism has only taken off relatively recently, so there obviously aren't that many right now, but more people are becoming veggies everyday. For all we know, this is the next stage in our evolution that's taking place. We might finally be evolving compassion for other creatures.
Parksie, *cough* :rolleyes:
Sorry Nullus, I don't mean to sound like we're ganging up on you.:pQuote:
Originally posted by nullus
Hey, this isn't fair, 4 against 1! :p
Okay, the posession question first. You stand pretty much alone in your view that we don't possess thing. Try taking something out of a shop and give that argument to the judge:)
You cannot ignore an agreed upon set of standards because it doesn't suit you. Our society is based upon possession. The same way that our society is based upon not beating the crap out of somebody. If as you suggest we don't own anything, then we would revert back to a primitive gang society very quickly. Why would I bother working if I can just go and take something off somebody smaller than me? Pretty soon we have reverted back to a Fuedal Society where strength in arms is everything. Do you think this is a preferable existance. I don't. I work hard so that my family will have a better life.
SD
It soooooo is a natural thing for humans to eat meat. Humans have been eating meat for millennia, and suddenly, just because we could live without it, it's unnatural? That's just silly, whats natural is not based on necessity.
Your description of the life of a farmed animal is really, really, really biased. Be fair. That's a totally negative way to look at it.
There is no compassion in nature. What you describe as natural is pretty much uniquely unnatural. Do you see herds of wildebeast (sp?) all running back to save the one that's being eaten by a couple of lions? They could easily trample the lions to death. Why don't they? Because they are completely discompassionate. They just don't care.
By the way, chimps eating monkeys isn't a very rare thing in the wild. They are very organised about it, some of them sit at one end of an area of forest as blockers while the others go to the other end and chase the monkeys towards the blockers.
What are you talking about!?! if you have a Claim on something, you obviously possess it. Therefore own the bloody thing. We claim the land, we are in posession therfore we own the land.Quote:
Originally posted by nullus
If a guy sells me something, then he's simply handing over that claim to me, and I'm handing over my claim of some money to him. No one is stealing.
Ok, this is the last post I'm making here, cos I think I can safely say we're never gonna agree on anything to do with this. :)
SD, don't worry, veggies are used to being ganged up on. ;)
I think you (and everyone else) has misunderstood me on this owning/claiming thing. I don't actually mean that because someone doesn't outrightly own something that people can just go and claim anything they want as theirs. We have in-built morals that tell us it's wrong to claim something as yours if someone else has a claim on it. Unfortunately, some people are brought up with no moral discipline.
HarryW, my description of the life of a farm animal is accurate. Maybe some are treated slightly better than others by getting a field to roam around in (wow, how lucky for them!), but all of them are transported in terrible conditions and killed in a very sick way. Many of them die from starvation or bad conditions on the farm.
No, most wild animals don't have a lot of compassion, but that's because if they did, it'd probably get them killed. Humans, however, have evolved more than other species. We're capable of a lot more compassion. That's not to say we're the only ones capable of it though. Remember that time a boy fell into a gorilla enclosure at London Zoo (something else I'm against)? A huge gorilla, that could easily have killed him, took care of him.
Well, I dunno about that chimps eating monkey thing, so I can't really comment on it, but it doesn't sound like something I can excuse. Remember, chimps are one of the more evolved and intelligent species...maybe they're turning into an earlier stage of humans. Perish the thought! :(
Jamagei, just because you've claimed some land, doesn't mean you outrightly own it. What if another species is already living on that land and claimed some of it as their territory? Don't they have a right to live there too?
There is a slight difference between owning and claiming.
There are many omnivorous species around, I'm certain, it's not just chimps. Chimps are just a good example, and one that I remember. Your description of farmed animals is certainly not completely accurate, they are not killed in a 'very sick way', they are killed in the most humane way available without contaminating the meat, a bolt through the head of a cow that doesn't have any idea what's going on isn't exactly a terrible way for it to die. One fraction of a second it's just standing there, a fraction of a second later, it's dead, and that's really as humane as death can be.
Gorillas are herbivores, the kid was never in danger of being eaten. The danger was that the gorillas would see him as a threat, but they obviously felt some kind of feeling like he was part of their group and needed protection, an instinctive thing, so that was lucky. I can see that perhaps that is a compassionate act, so perhaps my previous statement was incorrect, but I don't see incident as conclusive proof of compassion.
Humans may have evolved to become the dominant species through our greater intelligence, but that doesn't mean that we all of a sudden have to start being horrified at the concept of eating meat. It's a purely psychological thing. Some people just hate the thought of eating meat, I can accept that and that's fine, so long as nobody tried to tell me that I'm morally wrong for continuing to eat meat, as this species has done for millions of years. I don't eat offal, I find the very idea of my eating offal quite disgusting, but that's my problem, it doesn't mean that everyone else is doing something that's disgusting. I don't like seafood much, I couldn't stand to eat calimari, and I hate baked beans. The very idea of eating it makes me nauseous. I see the difference to be that I haven't accosiated that subconcious disgust with some kind of compassionate feeling. Well that's my viewpoint on it anyway. You're all free to disagree and/or point & laugh :rolleyes:
Alright, this is my last post in this thread! ;) Harry, although I disagree with most of what you say, I respect yours and other's opinion.
I don't want to change people's minds by making them feel bad about themselves, that would be dumb. If I were to make someone rethink their views on this subject, I'd want them to do it because they actually want to from their own free will, not because otherwise they'll feel guilty. If I came across that way I didn't mean to, I just said what I feel because...well because that's what a discussion is about. :rolleyes:
Well I was really enjoying myself on this thread. If you wan't to leave it at that nullus, then thats fine. However if you want to continue this discussion then I would be most agreeable. Don't worry, I'm not trying to change your views, just explain ours.
Either way, thank you for an enjoyable and well reason discussion :)
SD
Thanks, same to you. :) Sorry, I was enjoying it too, but I just felt it wasn't really going anywhere anymore. I think we've made our views pretty clear though. Feel free to respond to my last argument if ya want though. :)
Couldt be bothered to read the second half of this thread so i appologise if i am saying stuff thats already been said.
What good is owning the planet when it is soon going to be uninhabitable? By soon, im not talking about next week, but at the rate we are currently destroying it, i doubt there will be much left in 100 years or so.
It is a fact that you can easily survive without meat. You can get the protein and iron from other dairy products, such as milk, cheese and eggs. And you can get it from other stuff if you want to go to the extreme and be a (damm cant remember that word that means you dont eat any animal products).
You may say its less cruel for animals to be killed in a slaughter house because of the method of execution, but you are forgetting something. Before they are killed, they are queed up, and then done one by one. That means they know whats about to happen to them, as they watch their friends/relitives go through it first. Apartently, pigs tend to scream a lot when this is going on.
I'm not vegitarien, just thought i would correct you on what i considered a few inaccuracies.
Can't argue with that nullus (and believe me I would if I could ;))
lord_dude, you are really going over what's been said already, apart from the damage to the planet thing. You can live as a vegetarian, but the argument was about whether you should. The word you were looking for was 'vegan'. Being vegan isn't just about eating either, 'proper' vegans don't do things like wear leather or wool, they don't have anything to do with anything that came from an animal.
I take your point about the slaughterhouse thing, but your logic is a little flawed. You say they know what's about to happen to them. How can you tell? That means they have to see what happens, be aware that the other animal is being killed, and have the awareness of self to see that the same is going to happen to them. That's quite a feat of comprehension for a farm animal. I have to say I don't know much about the way animals are queued up in abbatoirs, so I can't really comment on it with much certainty.
Thats the word.
You underestimate the intelgence of animals. Dogs aret the cleverst of animals, but most people have seen a dog being pretty clever. If a lion is walking towards a hard of animals, the heard will run away. Thats coz they have seen what lions do to their kind.
Maybe I do, but I think you overestimate it. A herd of prey animals will run away because their instincts tell them to run away from anything that looks like a predator. There is a big difference between that kind of subconcious process - where the... well lets say its a zebra... where the zebra sees an animal which fits a predefined predator prototype and instinctively feels anxious and wants to run away from the predator, and also wants to stick with the rest of the herd who are also running away - and the concious understanding of being in line to be slaughtered.
Perhaps the animals suffer stress, in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't suffer stress, but I don't think that's because they comprehend the situation.
Give me an example of a dog being clever. I am very sceptical when people tell me their pets are clever. I have had pets and I've seen my friends' and family's pets, and I have seen animals that have learnt to do some cool tricks, but nothing I'd call clever.
Ok, ive only ever had one pet that is at all clever and thats my dog.
Heres a few examples. he picks words out of conversions. For example, you could just be talking and he might not even be in the same room, but you will say a word in a sentence that he knows like biscuit, walk, or his name or one of many other words, and he'll come running over to see whats happening. This might not sound that impressive, but it shows they are quite capable of learning, because there is no way he could instinctivly know the english language. Hes learnt from past experiances from whats hes seen and heard that biscuit means a biscuit.
He can be tactical sometimes too, when you are playing a game for example where you are chasing him when he has a ball or vice versa, he anticipated moves, hides round corners, sneaks up etc. A lot of dogs can be very clever, my dog is't particularly clever, just average.
I was watching a program earlier, about a wowan that used to be a magistrate, but quit when she discovered she could comunicate telepathically with dogs, and became a dog cyciatrish (i know thats not how to spell it). Its probably total BS, i admit, but you never know. The dogs seemed to be responing a lot to her.
Anyway, the point is, some animals are very clever, and it doest exactly take a genius of an animal to work out if one by one you are watching all your own kind be slaughtered for no apparent reason, you could well be next
Psychiatrist?
I know what you mean about dogs picking words out of conversations, my dad's dog even knows them if you spell them out now :) I agree that the dog is learning that these words mean something good (or bad in the case of 'vet' ;)), but that's not the same kind of intelligence as recognising a situation happening involving other animals, and having the awareness of self to realise that they could be in line to encounter the same situation. That's just a giant leap of comprehension.
I am sure your dog does stuff like that when you play, that's what infant animals do :) (domesticated pets like cats & dogs live their whole lives in a state of mental infancy.) I don't really think any dogs anywhere in the world are what I would call clever. They're clever for a dog, okay, but they're not that bright, come on.
The dogs were probably responding primarily to that woman's body language. That's how animals communicate mainly after all, so they're very sensitive to it. Horse whisperers do the same with horses, they don't claim to be telepathic or that the horse understands their verbal language.
So.... I really think it would take a genius of an animal to be properly aware of the situation.