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We were discussing the reasons why a programmer who is an absolute beginner may prefer VB6 to .NET. A very time-consuming installation could make him switch to another programming tool which is faster to set up and use.Quote:
Originally Posted by baja_yu
I'm sorry but I just don't find that to be even a least bit valid reason.
Only if you deploy your application on a cd/dvd/usb drive would you want to consider having the installer install the FW(s) from the same spot as the app's installer, in which you would have to have the 2.0 FW all the way up to your app's targeted FW. Otherwise, just have the installer download the correct FW(s) from Microsoft.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS
I have yet to see a valid reason in support of vb6 in this thread.
I can't see the time required to install the development tools as an important issue. Especially when you consider the effort required to locate and obtain a legal copy of VB6 today.
I think there is evidence that a lot of newbies are using pirated versions of VB6. We see a number of "portable VB" questions for example.
The "Express" SKUs are free, making VB.Net a more obvious choice.
An experienced programmer interested in creating software somebody will use is another matter. A lot of these people would be better off with Small Basic.
also they download the .net pro / ultimate version from the torrentz website......Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
i dont understand why dont microsoft block the .net pro and ultimate versions of vs 2010 present in the torrentz?
Because nobody can control the internet completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by HowTo
but someone might control it if thats causing losses to the company.....is nt it?
I would love to see you try to control much of anything on the internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by HowTo
someone = microsoft
do you thik microsoft is paying me a percentage of their profits :D
[sarcasm]Your right. They probably just didn't think of it. You can email them your idea, I'm sure it will change world completely.[/sarcasm]Quote:
Originally Posted by HowTo
its not sarcasm.........its my inexperience
after all every persons with thick and long beard is not a muslim and every muslim is not a terrorist :)
If you are a newbie, for you any programming language is as good as any other. It is obvious that you start learning with the quickest and easiest tool at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by baja_yu
Would you recommend something like Assembly, Lisp, or Brainfu©k to a newbie?Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
Why? Is there any other reason besides if you live in a trailor and you can only afford a used 80486 and all you can run is Pascal and Cobol?Quote:
It is obvious that you start learning with the quickest and easiest tool at hand.
I'm sorry but I simply can not wrap my head around those ideas.
Personally, I would recommend Delphi, in order not to depend on the .NET Framework.Quote:
Originally Posted by baja_yu
VB6 is not the same as Cobol or Assembly. It allows you to develop professional software for all of the 32 bit versions of Windows.Quote:
Why? Is there any other reason besides if you live in a trailor and you can only afford a used 80486 and all you can run is Pascal and Cobol?
I'm sorry but I simply can not wrap my head around those ideas.
vb.net also allows to develop professional software.......then why not vb.net?Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
Because .NET depends on the frame work I'm guessing as was stated above.Quote:
Originally Posted by HowTo
Your guess is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightwalker83
Sure, I would be happy to.Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
Originally, I heard this from the "horses mouth". I attended a presentation by Scott Guthrie, where he said exactly what I said in my post above.
Other sources:
http://blogs.msdn.com/wenlong/archiv...-and-oslo.aspx
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.php?t=610758 - Specifically post #28
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
Gary
How many times are we going to have the same discussion, over and over again?Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
I understand that you use VB6, and you are happy with it, and you like the fact that it doesn't rely on the .Net Framework, but really, to suggest that a new programmer should start using an unsupported piece of software is irresponsible, in my opinion.
Gary
Also, wouldn't a newbie care more about ease of use than speed of IDE installation? I used VB6 (and earlier) extensively, but that IDE is horrid compared to .NET. There's so much you just can't do, as far as controling how you navigate around, and manage, the code. The core element is the same in that you can quickly set up a trivial Hello World app and run it. No difference in the time it takes to do that in either IDE. But when you get to anything more significant, the .NET IDE is vastly more user friendly. I would think that would be the preference of someone new to programming.
On the other hand, perhaps there is too much available in .NET. Perhaps awkward and unweildly is preferred simply because of the lack of features, not in spite of the lack.
Out of interest, esposito, have you tried the latest version of Visual Studio 2010?
exactly.....i am a newbie in .Net and i am in this for hardly 6 to 8 months......Quote:
Originally Posted by gep13
initially i istalled vb6 and vs 2005 both and looking at the IDE of vs2005,i decided to learn it........
vb6 simply fu@ks from my point of view............
No, I haven't. I'm sure VS 2010 is an amazing product but the software I sell must not exceed 5MB (I'm talking about the download size), so I can't switch to .NET. In the past (a couple of years ago) I made an attempt, which failed miserably: I received tons of e-mail messages from my customers who didn't want to install the Framework.Quote:
Originally Posted by gep13
Okay, so for the sake of clarity, why the 5MB limit? Who imposes that? It is more than possible to create an application that is under 5MB in size. Notice here that I am not talking about the .Net Framework Pre-Requisite which is a one off installation.
When you say "tons", exactly how many are we talking about, and out of interest, what were their reasons for not wanting to install the Framework?
Gary
Oh, and by the way, I have just installed the Full version of Visual Studio 2010 Premium, and it took a total of 22 minutes. Personally, I don't think that is a particularly long time to wait.
Gary
Oh, and Visual Basic 2010 Express Edition (i.e. the free edition) took a whopping 4 minutes to install.
By using the Framework, I'm able to keep my apps 2MB or less. All the complex stuff is in the FW for me already.Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
There are exceptions to this rule, aren't there? This and other items on your web site are 7.2MBs, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by esposito
ops its written 7.2 mb but the downloading size shows only 3.30 mb :confused:
The question here was about VB6 for new users. That seems to have been discussed to the end.
What puzzles me is why anyone thinks there is something wrong with established users continuing to create VB6 applications. There can be plenty of reasons, but why should they matter?
Right, seems that 7.2 is the install size.Quote:
Originally Posted by HowTo
I don't think anyone is arguing that, at least not me. I think the debate was for users new to programming.Quote:
Originally Posted by dilettante
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by baja_yu
I'm still mainly developing in VB6, just recently started the transfer to .Net. The new syntax will take some getting used to, but I like the new IDE very much. If the conversion/move was simpler I'd have done it a long time ago, if for nothing else than for the improved IntelliSense and parentheses marking. It makes coding so much easier. And the auto-indenting, I might turn it off (if possible) but it will sure force newbies to learn it, that's a big plus.
There are a number of great addin's that you can use, like StyleCop, CodeRush Express, and PowerCommands, (all of which are free), that add many other features that can help you as well.
Gary
Many, because Esposito cannot resist a VB6 Is dead thread :DQuote:
How many times are we going to have the same discussion, over and over again?
I still think that as and when Windows 7 becomes the dominant Windows operating system this will cease to be an issue. It is only because XP and other older versions of windows do not come with the Framework as part of the standard installation.Quote:
Personally, I would recommend Delphi, in order not to depend on the .NET Framework.
Windows 7 comes with up to Framework 3.5 pre-installed which means you could write targeted programmes (for the 3.5 framework) for Windows 7 and everyone will be able to use them without any extra installation. It will just take some time for Windows XP to die off.
Also before anyone counters with the argument about having to always learn the next framework version, and building apps for that, well quite simply you dont have to !
Many people will not need all the new features in each Framework release in order to write there systems. May of the Framework changes are for new technologies like Link which while nice are not necessary to create most applications.
We still generally target .Net Framework 2.0 with all our external .Net projects.
99% of my current apps target the 2.0 Framework, even though I manly use VS2008 these days, though I'm getting ready to migrate 1 app to VS 2010 (still targeting the 2.0 FW). There's a lot of things in the 3.5 FW I could use in these apps, but I can't because most of them are being used on Win2k (even Win98SE sometimes) of which the 3.5 FW doesn't run on anything less than XP. Simply put, with my apps targeting the 2.0 FW, I know they'll run on Win2k and newer, plus with the Framework stacking I know they'll continue to run for probably quite a few of the next MS OS's.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedSomeAnswers
And yes, I only ever see Esposito's posts regarding .Net is when there's a flame war thread (usually .Net vs vb6 or .Net vs Delphi threads) the guy really should expand his horizons :p
I develop and sell industrial control systems. (Control systems for heavy machinery, manufacturing, production, assembly lines etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JuggaloBrotha
Many of these are NOT connected to the internet.
The user downloads my software and often copies the installer to a USB memory module or some other media and physically 'carries' that to the control PC to install the software.
Because of the nature of these control systems they can be running ANY version of Windows from 9x right through to Win7 including other various 'Server' versions running Thin Client terminals via terminal services and other 'citrix' like virtual sessions.
Total download size is around 3meg. It installs with a single click (It doesn't ask questions or send the user off to download anything else). The trial converts to a happy customer and I sell software. I'm happy and my customer is happy.
I know that if I start deploying the .Net framework then I can kiss goodbye to that simplicity and would have a lower conversion rate.
The exact same technique can be used for the .Net Framework. Why do people have such a big hang up on this. The .Net Framework is a one time installation that, in my experience, hasn't caused any ill effects on any server that I have installed it on. Once it's there, you never have to install it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS
I really don't see how.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanS
As for Newbies learning VB6 - No, I'd say they shouldn't -
But a few of the forums I've frequented over the years have discussed this exact thread and in most cases the newbies never actually came back to read the thread they'd started so we didn't find out their reasons.
In a few cases we did find out their reasons.
For example - they were given a project which contained source code in VB6 and they were expected to do some additional work on it. Not on a real VB6 IDE but they were expected to read the 'text' and debate it. Some students do of course want to actually run the code because they think it'll help them debate it.
And in some cases the students really were expected to develop in VB6 - Some poorer schools can't afford development tools so unfortunately they are still using Win2000 (or older) and VB6.
Also, some people get employed by a company who chucks a pile of vb6 source on their desks and tells them to work with it because their last slave just retired.
Sorry, but I could sit here all day quoting reasons for people to learn VB6