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depends on how much crap you run in the background. I have 2gb and i rarely use over 1gb unless i am playing a modern game such as NWN2. My system's idling at 311mb usage right now. It all depends on your usage.
Your largest speed increase would be upgrading that graphics card. It's hopelessly outdated. Even a $100 8600 would double your video speed (minimum)
I see, so my graphics card will actually slow the computer down, is that right?
After a fresh restart, my computer is using a page file with 441MB of data, 500-600MB RAM, while running 34 36 processes, so I guess it's the same really.
Should I have page filing enabled or not?
Cheers
Icyculyr
No it wont "slow" it down, but the better video card the better your games will perform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Icyculyr
And you should have page filing enabled. Because there might be times when you go over your memory limit and you want to run more programs. Without this swaping Windows could puke all over the place. This is because what could happen is you click the start menu, and windows tries to allocate some memory to do this, and there isn't any, you will get a BSOD. However if there is virtual memory to play with, Windows will be happy.
Every OS (that I know of) has this, including Mac and Linux.
yeah dont turn it off. leave it on in case you have to do something really intensive. But the more ram you have the less likely you will ever use it.
And the video card needs depends on what you do with it. If you play games, upgrade the card. Your setup is basically fine to do anything with as it is, except for the card.
Mac is great if you want to be told exactly how everything should be and given little to no choice in terms of your hardware/OS combination. You are at the total mercy of one company (Apple) and how they think you should use your computer.
Sure, I might be a little bit of a Microsoft fan boy, but one thing I really like about Microsoft right now, is they don't make PCs...
That gives me the freedom of a lot of choice when I build my computers.
That and people tend to complain about the price of Windows and what not, but how many releases of OSX have their been since Windows XP came out, and how many were free?
Strawman arguement. No one is forced into upgrades. And older versions are patched as neededQuote:
That and people tend to complain about the price of Windows and what not, but how many releases of OSX have their been since Windows XP came out, and how many were free?
No one tells you what to do with your Mac and your options of use is as infinite as any other computer. You have plenty of choices at purchase of your Mac. And if you want full blown customizability after purchase you can get a Mac Pro. When you folks use this arguement, you fail to remember that modders and upgraders are a minority. Most computer users buy a whole package and never upgrade it until they are ready to buy a brand new one. The most common upgrade for a computer post purchase is memory and that is dead simple to upgrade on a Mac. In fact if you were to buy a Mac, upgrade Memory post purchase as at purchase it is too expensive.Quote:
Mac is great if you want to be told exactly how everything should be and given little to no choice in terms of your hardware/OS combination. You are at the total mercy of one company (Apple) and how they think you should use your computer.
Thats cool, but don't post irrelevant arguements based on internet lip service. None of that matters. The whole package is what people buy a Mac for.Quote:
Sure, I might be a little bit of a Microsoft fan boy,
A coworker explained to me one time is that that upgrades at equlivant to a new OS ie Win 2K to Win XP. So that makes sense, kind of.
I don't know how Apple handle's older OS, but a good question to ask is if they still release security updates for their older OS (ie Mac OS 9).
Why would memory purchase be too expensive? I thought memory (SDRAM, RDRAM, DDR, DDR2) was all standard?
I WOULD NOT purchase memory straight from Apple. The only different between buying from Apple and your favorite hardware warehouse would be the Mac logo on the ram stick. But then again, people like wasting money on things they don't have to.
And if you can only buy a piece of hardware from Apple, then it's not worth it in the long run. Hardware will burn out, this is a given fact. I don't know about you, but I would rather buy the PC platform which has plenty of competition and low prices, rather than a Mac system which officaly only supports their hardware.
No. They do not provide supprot for OS 9 anymore. That would be like MS supporting 3.1. They still support down to Panther for most things.Quote:
I don't know how Apple handle's older OS, but a good question to ask is if they still release security updates for their older OS (ie Mac OS 9).
I have asked that question before. The only answer I have ever gotten was that Apple does it to encourage after market memory sales. But whether that is true or not I don't know. There could be many reasons for Apple overcharging, and I do mean over charge as Apple charges like 1,000$ bucks for 4 gigs. It isn't exactly a big secret about the premium or how easy it is to upgrade the memory yourself with Apple even providing support articles on how to do it so that leads me to believe the Apple wants people to buy memory elsewhere explanation might be true.Quote:
Why would memory purchase be too expensive? I thought memory (SDRAM, RDRAM, DDR, DDR2) was all standard?
Yes hardware does burn out, but they do use quality parts and Macs do have a tendancy to last like any other well made computer. And lets be honest, how many people stick with a most of the same hardware for moe than a few years on the PC side? Also the only buy hardware from Apple is again false. You can get a Mac Pro and on the inside is PCI Express, SATA and al lthe other stuff you would expect in a PC. And for iMacs, well they are all in ones sold to people who want an all in one packages for numerous reason. Other PC makers sell all in ones and then you have the laptop. If people really cared about upgradability or what will happen when the hardware burns out, why do laptops sell so well?Quote:
And if you can only buy a piece of hardware from Apple, then it's not worth it in the long run. Hardware will burn out, this is a given fact. I don't know about you, but I would rather buy the PC platform which has plenty of competition and low prices, rather than a Mac system which officaly only supports their hardware.
As far as cost, that again is just totally not the point. If price point was the end all be all, then why do companies like Alienware exist? A company that thrives on premium computers you could build yourself for alot less.
There is a great quote from Alan Kay who is one of the pioneers of morden computer technology. People who are serious about software should make their own hardware. Something Apple has taken to heart.
Man, my wife uses Macs, and I've had to struggle to fix some pretty hardcore problems at times. Macs are fine as long as they don't have any problem. If they do... OMG, you're in for a SERIOUS FIGHT.
OSX will fight you every step of the way, hiding files from you, preventing you from adjusting any setting Apple deems "too technical for the Mac user", etc...
Hell, about every month, my wife is handing me her USB flashdrive because it's "full" with only a single 7meg file showing on it. I pop it into my PC, clean off 980meg of invisible files (starting with a ".") and hand it back to her.
Personally, I tried Mac for 2 weeks solid. I did the cold-turkey test and convinced my wife to let me take over her MacBook. I'm afraid to say I hated it. Absolutely hated it. I had no control over anything anymore. I didn't know where it was installing anything, what was still installed and what I had "actually" removed, where any of my files were getting located to, and uninstalling something was a lesson in pain.
I never knew exactly what was running on the machine; at times it ran zippy as hell, other times at a snail's pace... and yet, apparently, I had no applications running. Then, on a bad install... I crashed it badly. It took me 3 days of crawling Google on my PC and fighting with OSX, installing 3rd party programs just to diagnose my file system, to fix it and get my desktop back. After that, my test-drive was OVER.
Macs... crash differently. The experience made me proud to be a PC user. My test-drives of Ubuntu and Mandriva were much better.
your dock shows you exactly what's running at all times. running programs have a tiny arrow under them. Unless it's a system file, it's always in the applications folder in a subfolder. Mac programs don't spread their disease all over your hard drive. they are self-contained. All you have to do to uninstall an entire program is delete it's directory (exceptions being programs that have file associations: you have to manually change them or run another program that wants them). You can also set your finder up to show invisible files, just like you can on windows. It's just a little harder to do.
I enabled the show hidden files, now it appears that all folders look like they are hidden (every file is a little transparent).:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
So Fugu makes my co-workers laptop logout.
What would you recommend as a free (and good) SFTP client and SVN client on Macs?
Ahh yes the same old false quote i see all the time. I have no control over my Mac. Well it is a lie. You just didn't make any effort to get that control. OS X has just as much control and power as any nix based system. So to say you hated OS X because of lack of control but like Ubuntu is very much a head scratcher.Quote:
I had no control over anything anymore.
You mean like Windows does by default too?Quote:
OSX will fight you every step of the way, hiding files from you, preventing you from adjusting any setting Apple deems "too technical for the Mac user", etc...
Try Zig for SVN. http://zigversion.com/.Quote:
Originally Posted by k1ll3rdr4g0n
SFTP I can only recommend a pay app called Fetch. I got it for free though through Mac Format magazine, but it is definatly worth purchasing.
Zig for SVN is free for non commercial use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
I work for a government agency so that wont work.
@Cander
Windows doesn't fight me. I find my way around Windows way easier than I do in Mac. Sure, that is biased as I have Windows my whole life. But for crying out loud, how hard is to implement a menu option to enable hidden files in Mac? And whats up these plist files? They are encoded because the "binary format is faster". Please, they encode them because they don't want you to mess with your Mac..[edited].
What's the big deal. Even if there wasnt one, you could easily create one.
this has finder show hidden filesCode:defaults write com.apple.Finder AppleShowAllFiles YES
here's an applescript that toggles them on and off.
applescript is incredibly powerful.Code:tell application "Finder" to quit
display dialog "Show Hidden Files..." buttons {"ON", "OFF"} ¬
default button 3
copy the result as list to {buttonpressed}
try
if the buttonpressed is "OFF" then do shell script ¬
"defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles OFF"
if the buttonpressed is "ON" then do shell script ¬
"defaults write com.apple.finder AppleShowAllFiles ON"
end try
tell application "Finder" to launch
Windows doesn't fight you because you have been using it for years. You know where the settings are. And plist files are opened with a plist editor. You know, like the registry in Windows? And how many Windows bundled apps do you go playing around with registry settings in? Or is this yet another grasping at straws argument?
Tired of being wrong yet? How many incorrect perceptions and strawman arguments have to get shot down before you admit you don't know as much as you think you do about a Mac?
I honestly didn't have any control, it took me about the first two days or so to figure out how to "get control", I'm typing in friggin AppleScript to do so...
Like I want to learn a scripting language just to use my computer. I stopped doing that with my Amiga 2000.
Cripes... I agree, Windows by default limits control too... but you can get it all back via GUI switches! Want to see hidden files, system directories, not to hide file extensions, you go to ONE place... Explorer->Tools->Folder Options... LOOK! There they ALL are... check, check check check... done!
No command line garbage, no learning AppleScript
Ubuntu, like most Unix systems, showed me my filesystem and allowed me to edit it from day 1. I don't like Unix though either. Why? The GUI is far too primitive still. I've been using Unix off and on for 20 years too. I'd never run it as a home system. OSX is nothing more than a pretty good GUI to a Unix core that like all Unix GUIs, isn't nearly up to the point where Windows currently is.
The big thing is, and why I have turned into somewhat of a Microsoft fanboy is I can do anything on a Windows machine. I can run anything. Adobe? It's on PC. Multimedia apps? Most of the big ones are PC only or have PC versions, so why should I limit myself to only the ones a Mac can run. Games? I admit, that's a nice, large list, but that's only what it is, a list. There is a PC version of every one of those, and fifty-times that are PC only, so why limit myself there.
What exactly does running a Mac give me? Really. What does Mac even give me that a Windows PC doesn't? Unlike a lot of PC fanboys, I've used a Mac. I don't ever want to use it again. My wife has had it with them as well, as a graphic designer, she's sick of how sluggish her WACOM tablet performs on her 1 year old MacBook (sitting and waiting for around 5 seconds for Photoshop CS3 to draw the line she just made) and how instant it is on my 3 year old eMachines laptop. I've got 8 machines in my house and 2 are macs, one is Mandriva unix (Ubuntu sucked compared to it) and the rest are Windows XP and Vista.
Don't say security, because only morons get malware. I haven't gotten malware in over 15 years, so that doesn't really apply to me. I haven't even had my virus scanner throw me a hit in about 10 and I go to some pretty shady sites and download some pretty shady things, so safe to say that doesn't apply to "me". Don't say anything having to do with emulation of PC on Mac or Mac on PC either; native running only. What could a Mac possibly do that I can't already do on my PC?
No Mac supporter has ever been able to answer that one for me.
As a side-note, there are some things Unix will do that OSX and Windows won't. For those things, I have my one Unix machine. It's hard to justify the $$$ premium Apple puts on their hardware and software though when PCs and Unix are so much cheaper, unless there is one solid thing a Mac can do that those can not. :D
Tired of being wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Why would I need to edit the registry when most options are in a menu setting :wave: (or editable from a menu option that launches a GUI)?
I know all I need to know. The only thing that I can see that sets Mac aside from Windows is the look. Windows crashes, so does Mac. You can play games on Windows, you can play games on Mac but the list is smaller. You can do your job in Windows, you can do your job in Mac but the list of software to do it is smaller. You can use Windows for graphics work, Mac same (but why don't they have a paint like application bundled?). There are viruses for Windows, same goes for Mac (the list is smaller, but its increasing). The list goes on. And don't even go into the whole "well Windows crashes more often than Mac", I VERY rarely see a crash. The last crash that I witnessed was caused by my mouse driver (out of date logitech drivers on a Windows XP 64 bit edition), uninstalled the drivers and it worked fine after that. That was a driver that crashed the system, not a program. My co worker was using Fugu (an SFTP client) and it crashes her Mac system pretty much everytime she uses it. I also put in another HD into my machine and installed XP 32bit edition. Absolutely no problems with that.
Your Mac pro-ness suggests you have lightly used Windows, let alone other OSes. Expand your horizon. If you want something that works like Mac, use Linux. There are plenty of ways to make linux look like mac. You do realize that Mac is Unix? So go ahead, give Linux a try out, least you could do.
Give Ubuntu a try. And the whole thing about incompatible hardware or have to recompile drivers or the kernel is pretty much a thing of the past with Ubuntu. Best part Linux supports more hardware and software than Mac. And its 100% free. Lemme ask you, whats the point of that PCMCIA card slot on laptops if Apple doesn't provide drivers for wireless cards?
Mac to me is just Linux in a proprietary hardware box that costs more than the PC and marketed towards the gullible users who always download viruses and spyware on Windows and think that Mac is the heavenly answer to their own stupidity. Unforuntally, the same users wont bother to use Linux because everyone only tells them the bad things about it, and the only thing that seems to go around is "oh you have to recompile the kernel". I bet 10 cents that I put a Mac user in front of a Linux box that had the Mac theme, they either wouldn't notice a difference or would enjoy Linux more.
Hmm...
This actually sounds like a good experiment. Really good one actually. This kinda of experiment would put to rest finally this whole OS battle.
If there are any takers:
1 experiment would entail having a blank install of Mac OS, having a blank install of Linux and see which one people like better.
Variations would include: Windows vs Linux, Windows vs Mac, and finally Windows vs Linux vs Mac all on the same table.
Not a bad idea. If these were my college days, I would have taken you up on that. It's not like you can't install OSX on a PC either. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by k1ll3rdr4g0n
depends on your hardware. My hard drive controller isn't recognized on one computer, and my processor isn't supported on another one, and the third one actually installs but won't work after finishing install. Kernel panic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenner
The list of commercial apps is NOT smaller on a mac. It is different. Even microsoft supports it now with a free version of media player, internet explorer (although no one in their right mind uses it) and microsoft office.
As for the games, unless they are made by microsoft themselves, they are almost always available on the mac as well. Sometimes on the same disk (such as world of warcraft). Unless you like playing older games? In which case they probably won't work right in windows either and you will need to run some kind of hardware emulation.
I believe you yourself mentioned osx has a unix core. There is a x-11 available on osx (although the one on the tiger cd is buggy, there's a new downloadable one) and you can compile any unix software and some linux software to run on osx. Example? WINE.Quote:
As a side-note, there are some things Unix will do that OSX and Windows won't. For those things, I have my one Unix machine. It's hard to justify the $$$ premium Apple puts on their hardware and software though when PCs and Unix are so much cheaper, unless there is one solid thing a Mac can do that those can not.
I dont know why it's done this way, but i am guessing it's got something to do with threading, but programs that interface with the web browsers just seem to work better in osx. Specifically real player can save streams as they are being played, instead of trying to pull tricks to get the link to them.
I really don't see way we could prove it either way, but I am going to stick to my guns and say that there are more commercial applications for Windows due that having the most market share. Makes sense if you think about it, if you were a software development company wouldn't you want to make software that the maximum number of people can use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Last time I installed it, it didn't tell me until afterwards that only Intel PCs could run WINE (it didn't tell me this until it was finished installed). But I see that there seems to be a PowerPC package, so I will install that next time I'm at work and see what happens. But, then again, why would you want to install WINE? I thought Mac came with everything you need/want?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
This is probably related to the Unix nature of the OS. As I don't think multi-threading applications where really popular/useful until the NT kernel came around (just my opinion).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
And as far as saving streams on windows is concerned, there are TONS of applications that can record streams. This isn't a "Mac special feature" thing.
you wouldn't want to install wine. It doesnt actually work very well. I was using that as an example program that is unix based that works on osx. It's the only one i could think of off the top of my head. If you really had to had windows software you would be better off running parallels software in concurrence mode (both windows and mac windows on same desktop, which no other OS is capable of) or virtual pc (also available on mac). If i were to run any emulators on mac (and i do) it would be for my wife to run family tree maker 16. There's actually a better (and in fact the top-rated of all of them) program out for mac called "Reunion", but this one she's used to (kind of like you're used to windows). Oh- i also run dosbox so i can run older dos games. But i run it on xp as well. Privateer, bards tale, etc.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't parallels only work on Intel Macs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Last time I installed Windows XP in a VM on Mac, I think the processor speed that Windows reported was like 50mhz or something (i have to look back on my Mac), but it was EXTREMELY slow.
Parallels gives direct pc access and if you have multi-core it allows that as well. Apps not only run full speed but you even have good enough hardware support to play directx games.
You can even double click a file in the windows and it is opened in a mac program, should you desire. You can also do it the other way. It FULLY integrates the systems to the point that if you were to be retarded, you could actually launch macintosh applications using the windows start menu. But why would you want to? It even lists all the appropriate mac apps in the windows "open with" dialog. But that's not really an issue. the only program my wife uses on her mac besides web browsing is Family tree maker. Everything else runs fine natively on the mac. And some stuff only runs on the mac. and i frankly have never understood why microsoft has stolen every good idea mac has had except expose'. It is the best way to find windows (better than alt tab or 3d-view). Why didnt they steal that one too? Windows would be 123% friendlier.
Wikipedia claims it doesn't, and for those who are skeptical about Wikipedia see this link.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Define play. I really doubt the quality will be good enough to play anything using the graphics hardware you have. Ie, what do you have to do? Turn the res down to 800x600? 640x480? I wont disagree that it will run, but how well. Will it run as good as my install of Windows XP Pro on my Powerbook G4?
Oh yeah, Microsoft stole things like the taskbar, the start menu, systray, and defiantly the start menu. Just because company b makes something after company a doesn't mean they stole the idea. I created an instant messenger in VB, does that mean I stole the idea from AIM? And alt-tab works just fine for me. Alt-tab + taskbar is a great combination for getting to programs. If you are really that lazy to where you can't move the mouse to bring a program's window to the front....I think you need more exercise. Windows already is user friendly, you just have to use once in a while. That is, I am speaking of everything below (and including) XP.Quote:
You can even double click a file in the windows and it is opened in a mac program, should you desire. You can also do it the other way. It FULLY integrates the systems to the point that if you were to be retarded, you could actually launch macintosh applications using the windows start menu. But why would you want to? It even lists all the appropriate mac apps in the windows "open with" dialog. But that's not really an issue. the only program my wife uses on her mac besides web browsing is Family tree maker. Everything else runs fine natively on the mac. And some stuff only runs on the mac. and i frankly have never understood why microsoft has stolen every good idea mac has had except expose'. It is the best way to find windows (better than alt tab or 3d-view). Why didnt they steal that one too? Windows would be 123% friendlier.
hey dont get mad. They have admitted most of their thefts. They used to have a partnership remember? They stole the entire icon/mouse combo idea. There was a movie made about it.
And i didnt say alt-tab was broken. I said the mac one works better. It takes every window on the screen and shrinks them until they are all displayed at once but still at proper scale.
And as for parallels, the wiki article is outdated. Older versions did NOT support dx. The newer ones do. But for that matter games that run on the mac and windows (natively) have been shown to have higer framerates on the mac. (on same system). Quake 4 comes to mind.
You keep on avoiding the subtle details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Where did you read that? I just googled 2 articles for Quake 4:
http://www.barefeats.com/kak4.html (Mac tests)
http://www.epinions.com/content_219635682948 (PC Tests)
Do you have anything to prove this? And I doubt that there wasn't that much higher of framerates to be able to brag about it. I say anything between an increase of 5-10 FPS isn't enough to say "my Mac performs better than your PC". And something in the back of my mind is saying that doesn't seem right. If Quake 4 did perform better on a Mac that would say that OpenGL is better than DirectX. Which, last time I checked OpenGL was just a graphics library. Now a whole framework API. I'm not saying that OpenGL doesn't work good, but DirectX usually has more features and usually performs better. Usually.
I mean yeah, if you have the 8800 GS in your iMac, that thing is gonna chug along. But, it would perform the same in a PC, maybe better, maybe worse. But the end results wouldn't be far enough to brag about.
the tests that i viewed used both xp and osx on the SAME SYSTEM.
and i just noticed this: I am quite aware there are programs on intel that can save flv files to disk. The problem is they treat them like files. If you are already viewing them in a browser, and you start their download, you are downloading the same file twice. On a mac, it takes the file as it is being streamed as you are watching it, and saves THAT to the hard drive.
also, 5 to 10 fps is a lofty goal for a lot of people. That's probably the difference between an 8600 and an 8800.
Your benchmarks you posted are worthless. They are running on different hardware with different settings.
Also should mention someone brought up comparing office 2003. That was never released on mac. they came out with a newer version, Office 2004. This version is not available on windows.
Yes opengl is "only" a graphics library. It also emulates any graphics function your video card doesn't have, for 100% compatibility. And have you ever heard of OpenAL? That's the audio component. Between the two of them they are equivalent to directx, which is a combo video and audio. The problem is it is hard to use with audio.
Finally, nearly every single benchmark you will find on the internet is not applicable because the patch apple released about a month ago (10.5.2) nearly doubled the framerates for most users on games. Since you like sources, here you go: http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/02/11...big-fps-gains/
As for the rest, i do in fact use a mac that has the same software on both. the only programs that are running slower are those that are emulating the powerpc core using rosetta so they function properly.
I'll admit that is plus one for Mac for having it built in. But, that's no reason to jump for joy and start converting Windows users to Mac. Usually if you want to watch a stream of something you only wanted to watch it once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
But, just for giggles can you walk us through this so us kiddes can try it at home?
Personally, if someone at a lan party kept bragging that he got 10 FPS more than me, I would slap him in the back of the head for being so annoying. But, in reality I would just say, "that's nice. Doesn't seem to be helping you any in game when I keep on killing you."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Hey, don't yell at me for that one. The last Vista on a Mac test I read was like that. And its not worthless, it does show that there is a difference in performance. It's not like I was comparing on a 500mhz mac vs 3ghz pc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
DirectX is more than just an audio/graphics library. DirectX allows you to interface to gaming devices such as controllers, it also has networking capabilities (even IPX, not that anyone would use it). And what is hard to use with audio?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
I think I said this before in the thread, but, I'll say it again to be clear. We can go on and on an infinite number of Windows is better vs Mac is better arguments. Until someone starts going below the belt and calling the other person names or a lier *cough*Cander*cough* and then they quickly start to lose ethos for their arguments. I just present the facts, if you don't like them, prove me wrong! I will gladly accept anyone who can prove me wrong, granted its from a creditable source and not some somedomain.com/~user kinda link. Proving someone wrong not only helps that person in the future, but it also helps other readers learn the facts. Else if you can't prove me wrong get out of the kitchen. Or was the saying something else? Ah who knows ;). Because if you just say I'm wrong without any sort of backing, then we are getting no where fast. Imagine a fight with your little brother/sister, "I'm right" - "No, I'm right".
www.openal.org
www.opengl.org
Even vista supports three different implementations of opengl. If you were a developer, would you target one os, or would you use a cross-platform soltuion that is not only just as powerful, but easier to program for? Opengl emulates anything that isn't hardware-based. If your system has a fast enough processor, you can conceivably render it all in system memory and all visual functions will work properly. There's a very good reason why nearly every game released that supports dx10 also supports 9. and most also support opengl. Of course it's in microsoft's best interests to be proprietary, but they've been up to that for years, even coming up with their own proprietary version of javascript. And their own version of Java console. Well the people have spoken and no one supports vbscript on their web pages, and sun java console is just plain better (and works on all OSes).Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_OpenGL_and_Direct3D
I can't give you links to everything i know about osx because a lot of it is personal experience. Programs seem to be better designed. Even open-source stuff that shouldn't have any differences still has differences. Try using videolan player's advanced functionality. The options screen is much cleaner on the mac version. The pc version has a confusion of buttons and option-buttons that is daunting to even experienced users. This is because of the controls available to a mac programmer are in some cases more powerful than anything on windows. The control that they use to navigate windows (like in the finder) doesnt even have a windows equivalent.
framerates: 20 fps is almost unplayable. 30 is playable with no jitters. There might not be a noticeable difference between 70 and 80, but a processor-intensive game (such as NWN2) isn't going to give you framerates that high anyway. (until they fix whatever the heck is wrong with their game)
but as for other things:
http://developer.apple.com/opensource/tools/X11.html running x-windows on mac
http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html Mac's official unix certification 100% compliant in all areas. There's your unix source. I am really tired... Surely you could find some of this stuff yourself?
One of the bigger problems Mac has going against it in gaming is they still can't do SLI/Crossfire. Only just recently, Apple came out with a dual 16X system. Something I've been running for over two years now and almost a necessity when you have a big LCD display with a 1920x1080 or so native resolution (because god forbid, reducing an LCD display to anything below native res looks truly awful).
Plus, a lot of bigger titles still have no native Mac support such as Crysis, Half Life 2, Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion and even the game I'm playing now, Sins of a Solar Empire. Heck, the game you mention, NWN2 only recently came out natively for a Mac. Sure, you can run Bootcamp and after much headache and tweaking as well as a copy of Windows XP, you can run all of these on a Mac, but then, what's the point? Might as well just run a native PC at that point.
The biggest thing holding back developers from writing for native OpenGL anymore is lack of good driver support. The OpenGL drivers for video cards just don't get nearly as tweaked or optimized as often as their D3D counterparts.
In the computer gaming field, most gamers have begun to see OpenGL as "that secondary renderer if D3D isn't working or you're not running Windows", and is generally associated with worse framerates and/or less graphical eyecandy because of less mature drivers and developers not wanting to do all the extra work programming their most advanced effects for a second API. At least OpenGL is kept pretty alive and well in the console markets with the PS3 and Wii.
i wouldnt say lack of sli is a big issue. It's a relatively small part of the consumer market. Yes it is probably costing them some sales, but probably not enough to matter. And yes opengl usage has waned over the years, but i am predicting a comeback thanks to the larger market share of both mac and linux that has occurred in the last few years. Going multi-platform with your game is easy if you have one library to support on all of them. As for audio, most are using a proprietary (but free) library called fmod. It's more powerful than either of the alternatives, and is truly multiplatform (even on gamecube). As well as being a whole lot easier to use. I've used it and it supports 26 audio formats (counting playlists) and uses a single play command no matter what kind of file it is. All the work is done under the hood.
Direct3D is a component of DirectX. And the official reason why games that support DirectX10 also support DirectX9 is because they want to make sure you can play it. DirectX10 cards are not mainstream yet. It's like the same question as the development on Mac vs PC, would you make a game that only targeted a specific set of users, or would you want to make sure that everyone who purchased your game could pick up off the shelves and play it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
I use Irrlicht for the record, which IS cross platform. And at the same time I am able to use DirectX.
Everyone does Javascript differently, this is why when you design something for one browser it might work, it might not work on others. Welcome to world of web design, would you like fries with that order? It's just not a "Microsoft thing" and yes Microsoft
I had absolutely no problems using it on the Windows side. I figured out how to play locally from the audio in on my built in audio card in about 30 min. That is after I read the instructions on how to use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Actually, theoretically the eye can't see a difference past 30FPS (it's an unwritten rule, many agree on 30-60. Anything past that, you *might* notice a difference, though it'll just look a little more smooth.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
When did I disagree with you that X11 doesn't run on Mac? Also when did I say that Max wasn't Unix compliant?
And you wouldn't really use any of these libraries directly, that's a waste of your time to learn it. Well, 1 of 2 things would happen, you would write a library wrapper for it, or you find a wrapper that someone else has made.
you weren't the only one in the thread besides me. Someone else said "there are things you can do on unix you can't do on a mac or windows"
Fmod doesnt use wrappers. It has a class (in source code) you can use, but you call all the functions directly. In high-performance programming (like games or audio) people who are writing games, etc that are processor intensive tend to stay away from wrappers. There are two reasons for this.
1. The wrappers never have every function the original has
2. The wrapper is more code to run and slows the program down. There is both a wrapper and an activex control available that makes programming directx easier. But you will rarely see anyone using either of them, unless they are embedding the activex control in a webpage.
Direct3d is part of directx, just like visual basic is part of visual studio. It is a separate component. The SDK makes this all clear. The help files are even separate between the different parts: Directplay, directdraw, direct3d, directinput, directmedia, directsound. You can use one or all of them, but they are not dependent on each other at all, and with the exception of directdraw and direct3d in dx10, all have to be decared as separate objects in your program.
There is no difference in this implementation than the open-source one i cited, except that being open-source, they don't force you to install the parts you don't want. I really don't know if there's an equivalent to the directinput. But according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directx directinput has been depreciated in favor of standard windows messages anyway.
Not everyone's eyes are the same, but i can personally see flickering of flourescent bulbs which pulse at 60 times a second, and i am not the only one. http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/ergon...g_flicker.html
By the way, where's your citation that eyes are 30hz? Even if that were so, that would be per eye. I have two.
who said anything about javascript. I said microsoft tried to replace it with a similar but proprietary to IE technology called vbscript.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBScript . Read the "uses" section.
This is why god invented the quoting function in bulletin boards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
How is the wrapper more code to run? It should run the same, maybe a few ms slower. Dlls are one thing, but when you compile it into the application (I'm taking you into C++ land now) it should NOT slow down the execution of the application in any way. Take a look at the DX wrappers for VB6, if they really do make it slower, then why do so many people use it? Irrlicht works pretty well. GTK works quite well. Now we can get into the whole debate of wither or not functions make a program slower. But, lets go into that scenario, wrappers are just a function whose parameters it takes it gets passed to the API. ActiveX is so rare, there are only 2 times which I have seen it used. Pr0n sites/warez sites and windows updates. Oh, so your telling me you wold rather write a program using this over this. Really now, I would like to write my first Windows program in C++ before my 80th birthday rolls around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
This is true, but your missing the simple fact that it's all bundled together AND commercially supported. Totally not dissing open source again, but, with DirectX you don't have to go searching for a audio library, graphics library, networking library. And again, I VERY RARELY seen anyone use pure direct3D programming. You would mostly likely use some sort of library. What do you think the people at ID software do? Get programmers to make the engine using DX (or OpenGL) and have them pass it off to the game developers. I guarantee that everyone there will not tweak the engine with pure DirectX code unless they REALLY have to. And from a programmers point of view, having it all together in a nice package is a god send. I don't know why you would want to install individual packages. That's like ordering a burger without the meat. "Yeah hey Bob, check it out, I only install Directsound. Joe, that's cool, now what you are going to do with it? Absolutely nothing Bob." Lets apply your philosophy to the .Net framework. Oh wait you can't, it's all or nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Lemme quote myself:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
I said theoretically, in theory. You know, that whole scientific method thing...oh nevermind. I never said "everyone on Earth can see at 30FPS". I saidQuote:
Originally Posted by k1ll3rdr4g0n
Link1 Link2. Now lets not get into this kinda argument in this thread as its completely unrelated to the topic at hand...but it is generally accepted as 30-60FPS. Now, if you ask your gamer friend, I'm sure his response would be something along the lines of "as many as I can get dood! Just check out my $500 video card where I get 300FPS". Personally, anything above 30 is just fine, 60 and above is excellent. Anything past 60 is just extra "fluff". This is coming from someone who has stared into a CRT all his life.Quote:
Originally Posted by k1ll3rdr4g0n
I read it, but I think you are reading too much into it. It never says anything about Microsoft trying to replace Javascript with vbscript. And vbscript is more than just a IE thing. It's also a scripting language inside of Windows, and sometimes used with ASP (as mentioned via that same wiki article).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Orwell
Though, in the end I think you are confusing yourself with JScript, not VBScript. And even at that, they are compliant now they chose to use standard Javascript a LONG time ago. They are making a .Net version of it, but that's a whole different life's story.
well i've actually been alive during their introduction to their vbscript support into ie which took place AFTER javascript was invented, and you can draw your own conclusions from that one. And it's funny you mentioned ID software since all of the software they produce supports opengl. And their new game engine actually demoed on a Macintosh. http://techreport.com/discussions.x/12645
And i am quite aware that jscript and vbscript are different. I used to program in vbscript. http://www.tizag.com/vbscriptTutoria...riptmsgbox.php
shows what i am talking about. Functional vbscript in IE but not in any other browser. And they are up to their old tricks again! Silverlight ring a bell?
Plus i was agreeing with you about the framerate actually. I said 20fps was poor playing while 30 was playable. Some games actually lock out the fps from going higher than 30 (gothic comes to mind although there's a patch that raises it to 50)
As for installing individual packages of directx components: I can think of a couple of examples: Directmedia is no longer supported but it's still there from an old directx version. Can't remove it. Also i personally don't like directsound and neither do a lot of programmers. It's not just the ease of use of other packages, but for whatever reason directsound uses more resources. Even the "de reguer" benchmark 3dmark2006 supports directx graphics but uses the fmod api i mentioned earlier for its sound. Proof? Look at the splash screen when you run it. Their logo is there.
I will take a closer look at rad c++. Looks similar to the c# setup where you can create forms. I also noticed it has a tutorial for using it with opengl.
Final note: I really dont understand how you can't think adding an extra layer of code to execute isn't going to slow the program down. It's more instructions for the processor to handle.
I use Mac's often at work. I do video production. Don't beleive all the hype about them. They're just as junk as a windows box with their own set of stupidity. Yes Vista is garbage, but OSwhatever is just as bad.