Re: France is our friend again.
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If you can retire in your early thirties, well, what of it? I chose a career that was unlikely to make me wealthy. Most people (except city folks) are a bit jealous of my day to day activities, but on the other hand, I'll never be rich, either. Maybe this was also a result of growing up so comfortably: My objectives were not material wealth (I could always assume sufficiency, though not wealth), but other goals. Those gals (the crew I refer to was almost exclusively female) were raised to a different goal (need I say what it was?), and achieved it. It wasn't a matter of lazy for them, they were successful by the measure they were raised to value, so was I. They will never be rich, and I probably won't either, but it isn't out of laziness, just different values.
Being rich has nothing to do with it. My rant was totally directed at people who blame the rest of society for the fact that they don't have a pot to piess in.
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Care to add a citation for that? It is not consistent with what I heard.
Yeah I'll look for it.
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Oh, now we elect the ACE? And are you suggesting that the idiots you elect are better? Blaming people for their own misfortune is a wonderful way of absolving yourself of any responsibility. You are effectively saying that they suffer because they deserve it. That's absurd in this case. The people didn't vote in an engineering failure.
No But the levy was assed and funds were provided to fix it. Who wasted the money? They voted for people who knew the problem existed and ignored it. Dont blame me, I voted for terd sandwich. I told you all giant douche would screw it up.
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I'm glad you're proud of your own accomplishments, but you gain no respect from me by casually classifying whole categories of people as lazy and stupid because they have not your glorious radiance. You yourself, despite all your accomplishments, are no more than the roll of the dice away from the gutter.
The only thing I'm proud of is that I'm not back in my home city sitting around with all of my childhood friends complaining that their welfare check didn't cover the heating bill. And then have the ballz to blame their situation on everyone in the world but themselvs. I did not "casually classifying whole categories of people as lazy and stupid because they have not your glorious radiance"
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by nemaroller
So let me ask you - Do you feel poor?
No, I don't. I pay my taxes gladly, and even so the government still ensures that I have enough money to live good. What I KNOW when paying my taxes is that: I'm ensured my education, even if I drop out, I have a chance to view the world from another perspective, and choose something else. I KNOW that if I, or anyone I know fall ill, with cancer or whatnot, ALL expenses WILL be payed by the government.
Furthermore I KNOW that my government will keep investing in the future of my country. Not only are we one of the leading countries regarding alternative energy sources(forgot the right name; but you know, Windmills and stuff), but we're also pretty much in the intellectual high roller club.
What's important to understand about Denmark is that we're such a small country, and our own natural ressources just won't cut it - we need to have a product to deliver around the globe, and we choose innovation.
So when I pay my taxes, I rest assured that there will always be someone looking out for me, or my family, should I take a wrong step on the stairs of life(Yea, I just came op with that!). I feel rich :).
Re: France is our friend again.
Sounds like Utopia! Don't kid yourself into thinking that your taxes are enough to pay for all the benefits you receive
Consider this, however. Every time you use the words "the Government" replace it with "my Neighbor" because that is where the money is coming from.
For example:
"... even so my neighbor still ensures that I have enough money to live good"
"... ALL expenses WILL be payed by my neighbor"
Do you think your neighbor would hand over his money to you to allow you to live so good if the government wasn't forcing him to?
Socialism is great for those on the receiving end, but not so great for those on the paying end.
Consider this statement:"Furthermore I KNOW that my government will keep investing in the future of my country"
What this means is that the people in your government think they know better how to use the profits from a business than the businessmen that generated those profits. So, they confiscate those profits and spend them on their latest hair brained scheme.
I trust the judgment of a businessman who has proven he knows how to run a business and generate profit more than the judgment of any government bureaucrat.
So, don't ever use the word "investment" when talking about your taxes. This is just spin the politicians have generated so that you won't feel so bad when they come take your hard earned money.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by vbNeo
What's important to understand about Denmark is that we're such a small country, and our own natural ressources just won't cut it - we need to have a product to deliver around the globe, and we choose innovation.
I suppose the fact that Denmark has a load of North Shore oil deposits that produce over 300,000 barrels a day doesn't hurt either.
I would conjure a guess a "small" part of your country's success has benefited from exporting 30% of your oil production.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by vbNeo
So when I pay my taxes, I rest assured that there will always be someone looking out for me, or my family, should I take a wrong step on the stairs of life(Yea, I just came op with that!). I feel rich :).
Thats what my parents generation thought as well. Most of them will be working until the day they die now. You government WILL fook it up eventually. They all do.
Re: France is our friend again.
Some nice selective quoting there, Moeur. Let's try again using the whole sentences:-
"I pay my neighbour gladly, and even so my neigjhbour still ensures that I have enough money to live good"
"I KNOW that if I, or anyone I know fall ill, with cancer or whatnot, ALL expenses WILL be payed by my neighbour"
...or to put it another way, "I live in a society where my neighbours and I will help each other out if the proverbial hits the fan". Doesn't sound to bad to me.
It's eay to portray socialism as a system where the people are all taking from society. In fact it's a system where everyone's giving to society.
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Don't kid yourself into thinking that your taxes are enough to pay for all the benefits you receive
The Danish Govrnment is currently decreasing the national debt. That seems to indicate that the taxes ARE enough to pay for those benefits. They are also one of the highest contributors to foreign aid.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
The Danish Govrnment is currently decreasing the national debt. That seems to indicate that the taxes ARE enough to pay for those benefits. They are also one of the highest contributors to foreign aid.
Be carefull. That can be very misleading. Decreasing national debt means that they are paying people back money that they owe. It all sounds good around election time, but that money has to come from somewhere. Find out if it is from your social services budget. I don't know much about the danish government and economy but it is something I would at least check out. Especially since "They are also one of the highest contributors to foreign aid". That only leaves public services budget(healthcare, law enforcement, schools.....), Military Budget, or the governments operating budget to cut. Any one care to guess what usually gets the axe first? :confused:
Re: France is our friend again.
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...or to put it another way, "I live in a society where my neighbours and I will help each other out if the proverbial hits the fan". Doesn't sound to bad to me.
No you don't. You live in a society where the wealthy are forced to pay for your health care and provide you with a safety net if you decide to stop working. This is how it is with a progressive tax system.
In the U.S.:
the top 1% of earners pay 37% of all taxes
the top 5% pay over half of all taxes 56%
The top 50% pay almost all income taxes in the US 96% meaning that half the people in the US are getting a free ride. I can only assume that the situation is worse in your country.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by moeur
No you don't. You live in a society where the wealthy are forced to pay for your health care and provide you with a safety net if you decide to stop working. This is how it is with a progressive tax system.
In the U.S.:
the top 1% of earners pay 37% of all taxes
the top 5% pay over half of all taxes 56%
The top 50% pay almost all income taxes in the US 96% meaning that half the people in the US are getting a free ride. I can only assume that the situation is worse in your country.
What's wrong with that assumption is that you asssume the same amount of riches is place at the same amount of people. As I said before; the danish middle class is huge - of course some are more rich than others, but generally, we all live(financially, don't qoute this and start a poetic discussion again) rather good.
This in turn also means that a large portion of the population pay almost the same amount of taxes, and the amount of money coming in from the average joe is considerable. Sadly, I don't have any figures to support this claim.
And frankly? Yes, it is a Utopia, can't think of anywhere else I'd rather have grown up in this world - but I suppose most people think this of their nationality.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Being rich has nothing to do with it. My rant was totally directed at people who blame the rest of society for the fact that they don't have a pot to piess in.
I think I misunderstood you. Sorry.
What irks me is that people believe the poor are sitting around whining. There are a few. However, I don't find that whiners are more common among the poor than the rich. I've hung out with street people, hobos (there are still a few around), had lots of poor folks working for me, and even know a fair number of rich and political types (my mother was one of them). In general, the ones who complain the least seem to be the politicians....when they are off the floor. I could speculate on why this is, but it would just be speculation, and I don't know whether it was those characteristics that made them interested in the miserable job of politics also made them non-whiners, or whether being in politics made them non-whiners.
As for the rest, the level of whining seems all about the same. Those I have met who have been truly down and out, have generally had no complaint about their lot. The poor that have worked for me never believed they had the ability to be other than they were, so they generally didn't do any complaining, either.
The ones who did the most complaining were the ones who were clever enough, and anti-social enough, that they believed they were entitled to cynically manipulate the system.
People have mentioned others whining about how unfair life it. What was truly unfair was the poor who were so deliberately poor. They weren't whining, because they had nothing to whine about. They felt they had attained the station in life that was their due, and couldn't be convinced that they could try for more. On the other hand, they believed they were where they were meant to be, so they weren't doing any whining.
My basic point is that in my experience, the idea that there are poor people feeding off the system and whining about what they don't have is mostly a myth made up by a combination of the media interacting with those few sociopathic types who want to manipulate the system, along with a feeling in the US that fiscal accomplishment is a mark of virtue, possibly fueled by guilt over that feeling.
In this country, we worship the "stars", and ostentatious, conspicuous consumption is a MAJOR selling point (why else would anybody EVER buy an H2). Ambition is rewarded in every way, and few of us in the middle class to the upper middle class, ever really avoid showing off to some extent, as if all that we have is some kind of proof of success, which is in turn proof that we did it "right".
But I'm disturbed by that. I'm disturbed by the things I own. I justify the computers in that I can use them to construct things that will amaze and delight people. I justify other things in other ways. In the end, I justify it all, but it still bothers me. I'm tied down. I can't honestly say that I am one bit happier than some of the vagrants I've given rides to over the years. I know how nice it is to have a roof over my head when it is raining, but I only really feel that pleasure when I have been hiking for some time, and the pleasure fades quickly when back in society.
What do I get in the way of happiness for my mortgage (I have almost no other bills)? I know what I get for my health insurance, and I know what I get for my tax dollars, and don't regret either one, but where does the rest of it go, and how am I happier for it? So much of my time is just running the race. If I ran harder, I could make more money, but for what?
I spent a couple hours watching a rock one time (not many people will understand that, though most here would understand it if I explained it, but I don't feel like it, as it isn't important). For those hours, I was happy by any measure. Do I work so that I can spend more time staring at rocks?
More and more, I think the reason I work is so that I have enough money to be able to stare at rocks when I am incapable of working any more. All the rest is just baggage that society is saddling us with.
Re: France is our friend again.
In the US I can see no reason why someone should remain poor.
I used to be poor and now I am considered rich, but only after many years of hard work. What is preventing others from doing the same?
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
My basic point is that in my experience, the idea that there are poor people feeding off the system and whining about what they don't have is mostly a myth made up by a combination of the media interacting with those few sociopathic types who want to manipulate the system, along with a feeling in the US that fiscal accomplishment is a mark of virtue, possibly fueled by guilt over that feeling.
It is no myth. I could give you a tour of about 5 different Low Income Housing Projects near my hometown. Of course, if you dont get beat to near death for being an "outsider" or robbed at gunpoint, you will find more than enough people sitting around complaining that the "Utility bills are goin up and the damn welfare people won't give me no mo money. Thats why I swing crack, ***** myself out, have 6 kids, rob people, belong to a gang bla bla bla bla bla" Maybe you've been sheltered from this segment of society and that is why it is something you've never experienced frequently? I'll tell you what, If someone has enough brains to sell crack or ***** themselvs out, they have enough brains to make money in the stock market or other investments. And if someone is robbing people for a living, they can damn sure flip burgers while they go to a community college on my tax dollar.
No one deserves to live off of the money I earned when they are capable of earning their own way. An no, I'm not a heartless basterd and realize that a minority of people on public assistance are disabled and "can" not provide for themselvs. I have no problem helping those people out as long as they are re-educating themselvs to eventually return to work.
I understand that with money comes more "bagage" and some people are fine with their lot in life. Honestly I'd be perfectly happy living in a hand built cabin in the middle of the mountains without a penny to my name. I do however have a family and intend on providing them with the means to choose whatever path they decide to take.
Taking on "baggage" is the problem that most people have. The reason? IMO it is poor investing. Instead of buying an "x" that may provide some small amount of amusement, spend the money on self improvment instead. A very smart man told me once that at a minimum, 25% of the money you ever make should go to educating yourself. That way you'll be able to make the same amout of money while only putting in half the effort. It's called working smart, not working hard and it is an investment that generally works out to a 50% increase. You can use that 50% to stare at rocks now or later. Personally I'd rather stare at them knowing I don't "have" to wake up and catch the bus to work at 6:00 AM when monday rolls around. ;)
Re: France is our friend again.
You hang out at that place? Frankly, I've never lived in inner city, which might well be different. The vagrants I have known have been well traveled, while those on the poor side were rural poor. I would not be at all surprised that rural is different from city. I have no idea whether any of them use welfare, but they do use health care, as the socioeconomic class you were born into is a strong predictor of how many health issues you will have, though why this is so is unknown (take all the obvious explanations, and I can assure you that they have been studied and excluded...read a fascinating article on that several years back, and a more recent one a year or two back). Now, what kind of health care do they use? That I couldn't say, but it was always really cheap.
As for self improvement, I think that I would put my purchasing pattern up against anybodies. I've built a fair gym, with machines, free weights, a treadmill, and a PDA based program to generate a workout routine that fits my lifestyle. That covers a portion of the physical side. The purchase of a house that allows me to walk/bike to work is a part of that. Then on the intellectual side, I got into programming as a hobby to do while I was working at a relatively mindless job (trapping fish in the heart of the Everglades, it proved to hold my attention fairly well). I have now taken up electronics to build a robot. I have never owned a TV, and my reading material has become almost exclusively technical, or scientific, or history.
How much of the money I make goes towards educating myself? Not clear. Not even clear how to calculate that. What would I be spending that money on? Also, that figure assumes that educating yourself more will allow you to make more money. In my line of work, that just ain't so. I already have a Masters, and PhDs don't necessarily make better money, though their options are restricted. Should I change my line of work? That would be crazy. I've got the size, but not the speed, to be an NFL linebacker, so that's out, and aside from that, I really can't think of a better job that pays as well or better. Thus, I would have to consciously make the decision to accept a less fun employment for the sake of more money. As far as I can tell, that would be a sure sign of stupidity.
Re: France is our friend again.
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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
You hang out at that place?
No, Infact I live 3000+ miles from there now, but I did grow up with them and still know enough people to show up there without getting my arse handed to me.
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How much of the money I make goes towards educating myself? Not clear. Not even clear how to calculate that. What would I be spending that money on? Also, that figure assumes that educating yourself more will allow you to make more money. In my line of work, that just ain't so. I already have a Masters, and PhDs don't necessarily make better money, though their options are restricted. Should I change my line of work? That would be crazy. I've got the size, but not the speed, to be an NFL linebacker, so that's out, and aside from that, I really can't think of a better job that pays as well or better. Thus, I would have to consciously make the decision to accept a less fun employment for the sake of more money. As far as I can tell, that would be a sure sign of stupidity.
You're not thinking outside the box man. People think education and they think what classes can I take to further my career. What degrees or certifications can I get. Granted they are the most important pieces of education. Say your salary is $4,000 a month. Using 25% of that on education gives you $1000 dollars a month to invest in yourself. Buy a plane ticket to Vegas for the weekend and catch a stock market investors seminar or a non traditional investments seminar. Pick up some books on an area of investing that you may not be familliar with. Pick up instructional videos on Real Estate investment market trends or Metals investment trends...... There are unlimited resources for generating income outside of your 9 - 5 that are simple, take very little time and can sit and generate money for you, not the other way around. ;)
Re: France is our friend again.
Yeah, I completely overlooked that....because it would be a waste of money. If I want investment advice, I just call up my father or my sister. If I want to learn more about programming....I turn on the computer. When I decided to learn electronics, I did buy a few books, but nowhere near 25% of even a single paychecks worth.
I agree with the concept. People should try to improve, and there is always some way that we can improve ourselves. However, if that is already your philosophy, then when it comes to trying to put a number value on it, you really can't do it. If your life is already built around improving yourself physically and mentally, then who do you blame if you are not rich?
By the way MB, could you package up some rain and send it this way? I'm sitting here watching rain fall past the window, yet I notice that the concrete it is supposedly landing on is staying dry. How utterly absurd that it can rain so lightly that it is evaporating off concrete as fast as it falls.
Re: France is our friend again.
Waste of money? :confused: I'm sure you have resources that are rockstars in the investing world, but how do you know what questions to ask them? How do they know what advice to give you? What can you do when you need to make a split second decision and have no access to them? Why should you limit yourself to the knowledge level of a couple other people.
Yeah, a few of the books, web sites, seminars, classes ...... have been sort of useless. I say "sort of" because they have taught me what not to do. Most have at the minimum given me new ideas to look into.
You can put a dollar amount on everything including your "Time". Sure a good book on Lumber and Property investing may only cost a $100.00 but it may take you 40 hours to read it a few times to understand it completly. Then it may take another 40 hours to research areas that lumber will grow and validate there is a good possibility that the property market will increase after harvest. Add in expenses to visit and inspect the area and you're hitting your 25% for a few months.
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If your life is already built around improving yourself physically and mentally, then who do you blame if you are not rich?
I've generally found that people who are motivated enough to improve themselvs, regardless of the avenue they take, are not people who throw blame around. Especially for where they are in life. But if they must blame someone, they should blame themselvs.
It's been raining non stop since Saturday night. I'm sure I could spare a couple kegs worth. Hopefully the rivers don't blow out. It makes my commute a real pain in the arse. Melting snowpack mixed with rain can make for a real mess.
Re: France is our friend again.
Wish we had a snowpack.....sigh....another year of fires.
