Is it true that the devil really existed?

Well my predominantly scientific background means I shall have to disagree with you on the last point, and tentatively on the Big Bang theory. I get the impression you are something of a Christian fundamentalist, is this true? Do you evolution shouldn't be taught in schools?

No, no hard feelings, you have been a very gracious opponent ;) Much more so than many anyhow.

I am sure you encourage me to look at Christianity, many do :rolleyes: My parents wer both brought up Christian, one Catholic and on CoE, but I wouldn't really classify myself as either. If I had to I would say I was catholic, but that's more to do with my opinions on the origin of the Church of England than anything else. I have, of course, been to church, although rarely. It seems like a nice kind of place to go sometimes, but as a lifestyle it doesn't sit well with me. I hold some similar reservations to Jethro in some ways too. In case you are still unaware of what he was on about, essentially he was referring to corruption within the Church, tithes, and that sort of thing. I neither expect nor desire anyone to share my specific thoughts on the subject of religion, so organised religion seems somewhat strange.

If you read the old religious debates (a very long one was 'Why such an effort to prove the Bible wrong?', I think it was started by jdavison) then you will see more of my opinions on religion, but coming from a different point of view to the one I have presented here. You will also encounter some thoughts from my good friend Gen-X ;) He seems to have gone AWOL now though.

I believe that evolution can be taught in schools as long as creationism (is that a word?) is also.

There are some "Christians" (that really aren't) that make it look like the church members are corrupt.

I suggest trying what's called a "non-denominational" church. There might not be one close to you, but it is worth a try. While I respect the Catholic church, catholicism can be very legalistic.

Well to be honest I think the only person who should decide my beliefs is me. One of the things I am not keen on about organised religion is that I don't feel comfortable with finding one that is a close match for my beliefs and then adopting the rest of the beliefs that accompany that religion. I think that whatever I decide to believe will have to come from within myself. If I have learnt one thing from all the theological debate on this forum it is that nobody can prove anything to someone with differing beliefs to them. Proofs are only personal proofs.

Well anyway, I don't have that much to say, except that I am happy as I am.

Oh I nearly forgot - 'Mrs Robinson' is not an explicitly theological song, no. It's a catchy tune though, and I like it :) Why don't you download it from Napster or something? I have *checks mp3 collection* 472 other suggestions if you need any more ideas of what to listen to. I doubt you'd like most of them though :rolleyes:

Science and Religion can't muddle up 2gether?

Yes, of course Science and Religion can co-exist.

You can easily make a logical synthesis between Scientific 'truth' and Religious 'experience'.

I am a Catholic (note: big C) and a scientist (shock, horror). I believe that God has given me the intelligence (and I do have some Harry) to use my discernment to make judgements about what is right and wrong...

I do not discount the possibility that I have got it wrong, but I hope not. I follow the line of Blaise Pascal (who is a bit of a hero, even though he was French!).

If I believe in God and He does not exist, I lose nothing, if I do not believe in God and He exists, I lose everything, therefore I believe.

Pretty neat proof and I guess we could prove His (or Her) existence by induction (that is a private joke for Harry).

Nobody seems to have mentioned Free Will in all this and if it goes on much longer we might have to start up a Philosophy thread.

Edwin: I totally agree that Order does not come from Disorder (that's classic Entropy) but why does that rule out the Big Bang? That theory states that matter was so dense that physical laws break down, chaos is a meaningless concept in that situation, but interestingly, the exact configuration of matter prior to the Big Bang leads to our current Universe... hmmm

Paul

P.S. For Christians: If there is intelligent life out there, did Christ die on those planets too?

Wasn't that a really crap film starring a big fish...

(oh bugger. wrong thread!)


td.

science and religion
Link

also as a believer in ONE God,
i believe there is a lot truth the so called big ban theory
that the fact the universe is expenading.....


[Edited by kovan on 11-15-2000 at 07:54 AM]

I didn't read all this since my last post but saw a few things I want to comment on. What is believed to be the oldest book in the bible, Job, does reference satan numerous time. 0 ad was probably 200 years after the death of Jesus on the cross. This goes according to the jewish calender. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You don't want to see something, fine, thats your perogative but that doesn't mean its not so. I don't think air exists because I can't see it, but does that means its not there.

Science and religion can and have coexisted. Its only because of the arrogance of humans that it has changed.

Harry, I agree you should be the one to decide what you believe. There is truth in the bible and I think Genx did this a while ago but proved that anybody can completely warp what is actually said. It is all of our responsibility to find the facts. But just to tell you the church is not always right and you should always challenge your beliefs, wether christian, aithiest, muslim... to come to the truth.

Kovan seems to think he is the only one who believes in ONE God. Well your wrong, I believe in one God. God is a 3 fold being like us who were created in his image. Body(Christ), Soul(father), spirit(holyspirit) but these 3 elements make up a whole being(one). The soul is the main controling figure, this is who we are. The body has a mind (our physical desires) of its own which will conflict with our soul or what we know is right. This is why Jesus can be the son of God and God

i and another BILLION people on this earth believe in one God
so i am not the onely one

we went over the trinity, i and every other muslim feels 3 entities dont make one
thats how WE believe, you believe other wize, very cool and respected

Guys,

Give it a rest. Neither of you are interested in debate. You are both just posturing. Get back to the VB, we're safe there.

td - I think you will find that Free Willy was a seminal moment in film-making history, we of the First Church of Willy Worshippers will brook no opposition on this. Anyone saying otherwise will be fed to the piranhas (in a caring, religious sort of way)<ahem>

P.

actually am always up for a good DEBATE :)
besides if we think about vb 24/7
it will not be healthy:)

Kovan, do you believe we are a three fold being?Do you believe we have a body soul and spirit?

just like every other christian
your trying to prove Gods attributes by having a human as a proof, and saying that, you are trying to say that we are like God, have 3 folds and so does God

here is three RETHORICAL questions:
If jesus died for MY sins, i can do what ever the hell i want and since he already suffered for my sins, then i am forgiven (that is if i believe jesus is way to heaven)

If jesus died, shouldnt god die too?
or now does god have 2 more folds left go to? since jesus being one of them (as you say) died

If Jesus was god(or one of his folds), how does he become his son too?


oh and the bible is NOT direct word of God
its mans interpertation of what God said
and since we know men aint perfect
and neither are their interpertation, what does that lead to?

i guess that makes it 4 rethorical questions

Well I've pretty much said all I have to say on this thread I think, unless the topic changes. I would just like to mention to Kovan, however, that I think his persistent denial that the concept of the Trinity is possible is getting old. I don't think anybody's asking you to believe it's true Kovan, just to understand how the idea works. It's like a clover leaf, three parts to it but all part of the whole. It's one leaf, but with three distinct parts to it. An ant has a head, thorax and abdomen, you don't say that's 3 beings. Each is an integral part of the whole.

Kovan, do you actually believe that God can die?

lets move it to a new thread

Christian belief is based on previous religous teachings of other religons.....notably quite a few which could be considered anti-christian today.

The fact that a few people posting here actually believe in the existance of Satan as a tangiable being, should indicate to you that they are quite closed to religous debate, i.e they have been indoctrinated in their own beliefs and will not change, but caren't see that others may have opposing views.

All organised religon is based on the interpretation of subjective writings, by (generally males) people wishing to maintain, justify their own positions.

As Bono says, "My God isn't short a dollar".

Christian beliefs are not base on previous religous teachings. They are base on the words of God.

People believe that the devil exists. Therefore the debate is closed? WRONG

The Bible was not written by subjective male writers who were trying to justify their positions. The Bible was written through men, but it is the Divine and Holy word of God.


P.S. My God doesn't need your dollar. He owns the universe.

I not a believer in religion but if people believe in that good on them just don't try and convert us no believers okay.

Anyway a good site you all should check out is http://www.religioustolerance.org

If you are firm in your belief in christianity that is fine by me, no problems, respect your rights.


....However.....


The question was "Does the Devil Exist". The answer is NO, never, mythological creature, creation made up from previous religons, does not exist, and never has.

There are exactly two mainstream religons who believe in Satan and possession.

1. The Catholic Church.

2. I believe the Jewish faith.

I have no knowledge of islam's belief in this....kovan come on down!


Now what church are you proposing as the saviour of mankind. No doubt one of those horrid American sects....in which case kindly explain to kovan why your church holds the belief that members of his faith will go to hell. This is the stated belief of Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, and other caring shring folk of that ilk.

So you are saying that the devil doesn't exist?

Jethro,

For what its worth your theological knowledge is a little shaky (like your VB then :D).

All mainstream Judaeo-Christian religions accept the concept of Satan. Its precise nature is a matter for debate.

As a Catholic, I can tell you that I do NOT believe that all other religions will go to hell, I am not even sure what hell is - possibly this thread on a Sunday evening!!!

A bit of reasoned debate is fine, but everyone seems to be making categorical assertions that are basically unprovable unless you include faith - an inherently unprovable contention.

So how about wrapping it up Guys?

P.

Jethro
your ignorant of islam :)
(hope that gets you going)
hehehe
seriously dude, i think you should LEARN about it
rather than make assumptions like you did before about how we treat the women ect

but back to serious stuff,

make that 3 maintream religions :)
as we believe satan exists as much if not more than christianity and jewdaism

kovan,

I was just pointing out the error of Jethro's ways. I did realise that Islam has the same concept of Satan. Really the question is: can evil be personified?

I would say no, not in the sense of a being with horns, tail etc, but in the same way I don't think God has a great big beard...

Lots of other religions have the same concept of personified evil (ghosts, spirits etc.), so I don't think we can limit it to 3 religions.

Anyway, I don't want to philosophise right now, so I don't think I'll post any more here - nobody is listening anyway.

Cheers,

P.

I'm going to discuss with Kovan on the new thread. However I want to address the issue of us forcing our beliefs on you. Show me where anybody has done that here. There is not one. First VBknight asked if the devil existed. we all stated our opinion and questions were asked. I explained my position alng with Kovan and others but at no point did anybody try and covert or preach to anybody in this thread. This just, to me, show a closed and biased opinion from the non believing. Just because you think you have all the answers doesn't mean you do. I don't go by any church doctrine or others beliefs unless they can be proven to me in the bible. My opinion has change through time because people have shown me errors ain my understanding and pointed out scriptures that have created new beliefs for me. I have listened and in the passed involved in other religions(the belief that science has the answers is a religion too) I have my reasons for believing what I do. If you don't want to hear them then get out of the thread. But don't complain that we don't listen or are trying to convert you because that is a lie.

PaulW
in islam we believe Satan to be one of the Jinn being
and according to OUR believe
Jinns are described in DETAIL
they are made up of fire
marry, kids, eat, drink, sleep, just like any other human
they are invisible in their ORIGINAL form, but they can take on other forms..
and yes we believe he has horns
not hollywood type..
and we dont believe he got a tail, or holds a stick
and also about God with a beard..

in islam
one who compares ANYTHING to God automatically becomes a disbeliever, because Qur'an clearly states that those who do this are not muslims..

but i agree with you
religion to personify satan, God (however i never came across anything that personified God with human characteristics in islam)

it has a LOT to do with faith
example
according to islam, with all the proofs i have found
i find it to be true.
on saying that
if Islam says "satan has horns"
since i havent seen him, but based on my belief and confident in islam, of course i would believe he has

so big part of the puzzle is based on faith

with Jethro
he is psycho, he is Gen-X II
:)
*cmoon get mad man*
but on a serious note about jethro
he is clearly an athiest and discussion belief with an athiest is like trying to lift a mountain with your bare hands..

Actually satan doesn't have horns and a tail. He actual looks like an angel which in bible scripture looks like any of us, but much more attractive. Ghost are not necessarily view as evil by any religion that I know of. They are simply a spirit stuck on our plane of existance for a possible number of reasons, but not evil.(I used to be a wiccan)

thats according to YOU
according to islam
thats an accurate description of a JINN
and a satan was among the JINN

i know you believe he was an angel
and totally disagree with what i just said
duhh thats expected

when someone is an angel they are ALL good
cant have any evil in them
so satan was not an angel

Of course I disagree ;) What fun would we have if I didn't but what exactly is a Jinn? This would help so I know exactly what you are saying. From what I know a Jinn was comparable to an evil genie. I just want to know how far off I am and what it actually is.

jinn is another form of being
like humans they are able to make decisions
and no they are NOT all evil
but majority of them (army of satan....)
there is a really good book out there
its 10 bucks to buy

called "World of Jinn and The Devils"
here is the link
http://www.al-basheer.com/viewBook.asp?itemNum=1002
it will give you all the details you need to know about Jinn beings,

jdavidson,

When did I say that you were trying to force your beliefs on me. My 'complaint' was that you were both couching your language in terms of absolutes.

Quote from Edwin:
"God exists"
Quote from you:
"Satan doesn't have horns and a tail"
Quote from kovan:
"the bible is NOT direct word of God"

All of these are unprovable assertions. You have to use faith. I have no problem with that BUT I resent your misinterpretation of what I said and I particularly resent the inference that I am a liar.

I do not want to fall out with anyone, I was just tring to show the futility of making mutually contradictory assertions that prove little and have no effect on the beliefs of the recipient. Reasoned debate is great. Intemperance is not.

I feel better now. Take it easy:)

Paul.

paul
actually mine is and can be proven :)
since bible is not direct
meaning god didn't write the EXACT text in the bible
it said to be inspired by god or something but its not direct word of god
and i dont think any christian would disagree on the fact that god didnt' write the EXACT words that are in the bible

so what happens?

i win :)

jk
seriously dude
i am open to any debate, discussion
but from how i see it with jdavidson and edwin, they dont have the knowledge to have a good debate
if one says something they dont like
they go and quote from the bible.. well hello but some of us dont believe in the bible so that just makes it worse..

n e ways stay calm the way you are, we need at least one calm person :)

In the end, nothing is provable because 'proof' is based on experience and experience could be delusional. For instance, you might be afigment of my imagination...

I am calm, just not keen on being called a liar.

We could have a good debate. I happen to believe that the Bible is a divinely inspired document, however, that does not mean I have to blindly believe each and every word. We read the Bible in the spirit of enquiry.

As a rational being with my own thoughts and ideas, I am a little suspicious of ad nauseam quotations, from any source, used to 'prove' things.

Anyway, be happy:)

P.

we share something in common
i believe SOME of the bible is true
...

yet i believe some of its corrupt
so if i find something tiny winny wrong with such thing
i just reject it all togather cus if some of its corrupt it woudn't make sense to follow in parts but not whole
so there for some of the bible is true, but not all
and since ME, I, dont feel its complete
i will not follow any of it

being called a lair is put down of your ego hehe
not just you, me and everyone else

i dont like being called a lair either dont worry hehe

but ya i am always up for a good DEBATE

i am very happy indeed :)
actually let me think about that,, ya i am happy
hehe

From the list of reasons of proof of Muhammad being a prophet on that sit, not one unless I missed something can prove he was a prophet of God, and as far as the writing of the book one, that is completely based on opinion. Sounds almost like Idol worship to some degree. Is there something I am missing. I am really trying tounderstand this but this sound like the mormons to me.

Who called you a liar?

they make perfect sense to me...
.

how is it sounding like idol worshipers?

dont read peoples opinions..
go and read the Qur'an if your so interested in islam

that was just a site i gave you so you would gain some knowledge about islam
dont seem you got any
still blind as you were before..

if your talkinga bout me,
no one on here, i was just generilizing
but from the looks of it either you or edwin called paul a liar..

at least thats what i gathered

That is a lie. I have never quoted the bible for this discussion as proof. GO back and look. As far as me not knowing enough thats a crock. I wasn't insulted until now .