So...Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
What's wrong with that?
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So...Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
What's wrong with that?
That's because without them, the browser is worse than anything else out there. I've always said, FF offers nothing IE doesn't, there have been ad blockers etc. out for IE for many, many years, hell, in 1999 I had an ad blocker for IE, and for some reason it's one of the biggest reasons people use FF. FF doesn't come with it, you need to extend it to do it, so on it's own, yet again it offers nothing extra.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
The other is themes, now themes are quite stupid for a browser, they offer nothing of advantage except to try and make it look better than it is. Not many people constantly theme Windows, so why a browser? It doesn't make sense, all the 'strongest' points for firefox are completely moot because either a) none of them come standard, which is how it should be judged, and b) most of them are novelty extensions that might be good at first, but you slowly get sick to death of.
So you're saying IE doesn't come with ad blockers either? :)
That's the whole point of extensions. Fx provides the bare bones essentials and you can extend it as much as you like.
I don't see how you can be justified in saying it's "worse than anything else out there" without extensions. It does at least everything that IE does when both are in stock configuration. The rendering engine is one of the best, if not the best, at W3C standards support. Mozilla have a quicker turnaround time for fixes and releases. Honestly I cannot see why you would say IE is "better" overall. I'd love to know why anyone would pick IE but so far all the pro-IE or anti-Firefox arguments I have seen are opinions - no hard statements that spell out "THIS is why IE is better than Firefox".
I think Hack's made the best points so far, people don't like to change when they don't know why they should, people are forced to use IE in a workplace, and many people just don't care, after all, it's just a browser.
That's the point, IE does that too, whether you choose to use them or not is up to you. And yes, I am saying it doesn't come with an adblocker, so what. If Microsoft was to include one, it would infuriate many companies to no end, some of which are their partners, and doing so would require ad companies to become more crafty in how they deliver their ads to circumvent the blocker.
I also never said IE was better overall, there are points about it I don't like, but I will not register to the idea that FF is some almighty lord the way many on the internet act about it. It's all about choice, and the problem isn't why do people use IE, it's why can't people who use firefox respect people's choices to use IE? If you say you choose IE, you like IE or anything positive towards IE, they sit there and bite your head off for doing so, then they insult your ideas and rave on and on and on and on and on about why you should be using FF that it's a joke.
Whats wrong? Well would you spend $10,000 on a paint job for your car or spend the same on repairing the engine so it runs strong and fast?Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
Fair enough. Likewise, I dislike it when people slag off things, or promote them, without any valid reasoning. People promote Firefox because it's still not all that widely known in the mainstream, it does have advantages, and yes it's another choice. If anyone does not respect someone's choice then they're taking it too seriously. It's not the end of the world :) In fact I'd say the wars between browsers actually help both of them improve, we're seeing new features and improvements come on to IE now because of pressure from other, newer browsers, and that's a good thing.
Yeah, but there's a difference between promoting it, and bringing it up all the bloody time.
So if most people dont caare as they see it as just a browser then that is even more of a reason NOT to use FF. IdeasMan stated that after a while they will get tired of the toy extensions and its again nothing more then a basic browser. If your running Windows then why in the heck wouldnt you want to use a browser that is also written by the authors of Windows?
If you have a Ferrari and needed to get a replacement part would you want a china made part or the original Ferrari part? I know I owuld want the Ferrari part 100% of the time.
The browser wars are great but in moderation. It has brought about competition and that is where the consumer benefits from - new features, imporovements, and better performance.
Rob, by your logic, no-one would ever want to run Windows software that wasn't made by Microsoft, if there was a MS equivalent available.
Didn't MS go to court a while back over something along those very lines? :)
Although that is generalizing too much: many users who just want a browser that works and does the job don't need extensions. I'm actually one of the users without any extensions. Firefox just annoys me far less than IE, I don't need to really think about the browser while I'm using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
Oh, I think Finland broke 40% usage for Firefox a while ago. That means IE usage is well below 60%. And that means Firefox might be more mainstream browser than IE by the end of the year.
:lol: Yup and I believe they won too.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
@Merri: I hear what your saying but I just dont like it when all you ever hear about Ff is how many extensions it has or such. Your probably one of a very small few that try to focus on the meat of the browser and not its eye candy.
You just don't like some of the people who like Firefox, thus you rate the browser by that. I do that myself partly with Linux: although that is only a very minor reason, I have better reasonings for that as well (as some Linux fanboys seem to be very interested in trying to convert me). But in total, I think you push Firefox far too down based on the actually few users who like the candy and keep mentioning it all the time. That's the same what happened with IE in the past, though: it had more candy than Netscape, but eventually all the good things compared to Netscape made everyone use IE (although the fact "it came with the box" attitude helped Microsoft a good bit). Whichever way you look at it, there really is no real good reason to use IE compared to Firefox and Opera and the other modern browsers. In a way IE has become Netscape.
one of the main reasons why i prefer to not use IE is because of the tight integration with the OS. If there is a major security flaw with IE it can affect the whole system, while a flaw in a standalone browser has much less chance of being critical to the system. I also dislike the fact that ActiveX cannot be disabled in IE6 and below, since i consider it to be a major security risk for the "average user" that doesnt understand techno-speak. i heard that IE7 includes an option to disable ActiveX, which should be good. The only reason i have to use activeX over the internet is with WindowsUpdate. if windows had a built-in update mechanism similar to OSX, then there would be much less dependance on ActiveX.
Well only time can tell if IE will become Netscape but Netscape didnt keep up with the trends and fel behind market demands. At least IE is finally listening and coming out with the new version that will have the "candy" that is so desperately wanted.
Just use automatic updates.
And you can disable activeX in IE 6. CP -> Internet options -> Security -> Custom Level. No ActiveX or Javascript runs on my computer without me explicitly authorising it.
when you have extensions such as WebDeveloper, Sage and BugMeNot i would not call them 'dumb'.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
(I also notice that IE has zero (0%) support for the gopher protocol. :afrog: )
that only works for critical updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
I think that post is being requoted the most on this page :)
I only mean that you FF'ers love the extensions more the the browser alone. I wouldnt buy a car solely based upon it having a really cool air freshener hanging from the rear view mirror.
Hmm. Didn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
As for extensions, I couldn't give a toss personally. The web developing extensions are very useful but I'd still use Fx if it didn't have them because I find it a superior base platform.
And that should be the sole reason to ever use, buy or promote a product that you trust and believe in. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
Netscape fell because they didn't have the resources (money) to keep up with Microsoft in development. That pushed Netscape to consider open source and thus Mozilla was created. They started working on Gecko which is superior to Trident (IE's rendering engine). Netscape's biggers failure was with the rendering engine that just wan't up to the par with IE, not to mention the other general browser features.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
Now the same applies to IE. IE has almost all the same problems Netscape had when it fell. The new version is still too far away and when IE7 comes out we're almost ready for Firefox 2 and maybe Opera 10... which then are two-three major versions away from the level IE7 is targetting to at the moment (by overall comparison). IE's market share keeps going down and it might go too low before IE7 is out; a lot will depend on the final IE7. But I just don't see a successful future for IE7, atleast not to the level IE did with Netscape. The other browsers just are good enough to fight back and keep their existing users.
Edit: As additional note, I think no browser should get too big marketshare on the Internet. I'd worry if Firefox went over 80%. That won't happen (atleast it is very unlikely), but when there are more browsers out there, web developers understand their responsibility better and we get better sites that work on all browsers.
What kind of argument is that? Who or what actually uses gopher? I've never seen anything in all my time on the internet specifically require it, it's dead, hence why in IE7, it's removed, it's a redundant protocol.Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
it wasnt meant to be an argument. (notice the frog...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ideas Man
on my mac, i dont use the included browser (safari) but instead choose to use another (Camino) because it has a better rendering engine. (even though safari has passed acid2).Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
Ad Blocker isn't same as popup blockerQuote:
Originally Posted by Ideas Man
I use IE frequently and I can tell you there are no AdBlockers for IE
Ain't that the truth, but, like with most things that are annoying in life, you learn to deal with it so it becomes only a fairly minor issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
I mean come on
If microsoft started HTML we'd be buying tags for our pages
Yes there is an ad blocker, or at least there was. I can't recall what it was called, but it had a little yellow circle with a plus and a minus sign for it's icon, the problem was, website developers ultimately got around it and it became useless.
Please understand, firefox has not invented anything new really, it's all on borrowed ideas/themes, hell, the rendering engine isn't even unique, it's NETSCAPE's engine, w/o that, it wouldn't even exist. Tabs did NOT originate in firefox, I'd seen them way before in things like the MSDN Library had (and still does) have them, VS.NET had them, opera had them, firefox is nothing special, and just because firefox came and these extensions came with them, doesn't mean there was no prior work.
Nobody said FF invented tabs, it's just an open source web-browser that enables you to create extensions to improve usability
How about getting both for free?!Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
FF is free, most of extensions and themes are free...Why wouldn't I!!
You'd be suprised how many firefox fanboys have this idea in their heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
They have the idea that FF is the first browser to use tabs. and that's true since FF is Netscape's dearest sonQuote:
Originally Posted by Ideas Man
I'm well aware of the differences between the two.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
Here's a little program I used called AdSubtract so, you were saying......?
Mind you, this has been out since like 98 or 2000, so this is waaaaaay before the time of any firefox extension. Granted it's not free, but in it's time, it was a godsend.
With browsers, not free = not worth it, since can get it free for other browsers.
So, Ideas Man, you claim Firefox without extensions is poorer than IE. Can you back up this claim with something that has some flesh on it? What makes this opinion true? Because I'm using Firefox without extensions and I find it far better than IE (my opinions are backed up in various posts I've already written in several threads, not hard to find them).
I'm not an IE fan but it is the standard for most sitesQuote:
Originally Posted by Merri
Netcaptor is widely credited with being the first web browser to use the tab model.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
No, what I'm saying is all these things that are supposed to be firefox unique, do exist for IE. I never said that it was a better deal, and not free does not automatically equal not worth it for web browsers. Back in the day of dial-up, this actually was worth the money, any extra bits you could get from not getting ads was beautiful.
Now fast forward to today, we still have ads, but broadband is also a major player in the market, IMO, although they are nice, they aren't entirely required. I don't mind ads in general, they fund the sites I like (like VB forums ;) ), they all seem to load asynchronously with the page, so it doesn't hinder page speed, and they aren't always obtrusive, there are the occasional ones that really tick you off, but regular ones, I don't mind. Of course that's ME, some people can't stand them period, and that's OK, to reiterate, what I was saying was the 'major' selling points for ff aren't unique, they do exist for IE, whether they're free or not, that's another story.
The only real difference is that ff has people developing extensions just for the fun of it, IE doesn't really. I don't know why this is, maybe it's seen as something that you simply don't touch I don't know, but the foundations are there for it to be done, it is possible if you are willing and demanding.
so..Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
I didn't say FF is the first tab-browser!!!
Another thing... we're talking about free browsers
Define "most". How many sites you can find each week that do not work with non-IE browser? I tend to find about one such site each month when I'm not looking a collected list of such sites. A lot of sites are being made Firefox compatible and at the same time other browsers compatible, often just sending feedback is enough to let the changes happen. All Finnish banks are already Firefox and Opera friendly, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy
It would appear from the post I quoted that you did, although that has absolutely no bearing upon my statement, and also Netcaptor is freeware. So don't be so quick to retaliate next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComputerJy