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It always amuses me to hear people discuss religion.
Religion is a natural evolution in the stages of community, and exists as a form of control over the uncoordinated mass.
Ulitmatley, all Religions disappear, as the original reason for their existance disappears. I would specualte that all Religions as we see them today are in the last quarter of their life.
What on Earth does Religion have to do with God, apart from convenience a God brings to Religion.
andy.
Gen-X, again your presuming again.. I no longer care to discuss anything with you. Your too ignorant when it comes to people and their ways. You presume they get this info from that source or this source. And you are very Vague in your presumptions on top of that. Kedaman has you pegged as well.. your too hung up on other's beleifs that you can't even see your own problems. Why do you get involved knowledge of others? They are NOT trying to change you? So why are you even here in this discussion? Your not here to learn, THAT IS OBVIOUS! If you were here to learn, you would have seen WHY people beleive in the bible.. But you can't get past that fact. Your trying to pursuade them away from it, telling them THEY are the stupid ones. WHO ARE TO JUDGE?Quote:
I find what you said interesting. You say its easy to find the right religion and then you break away chunks based on an arbitrary system that probably came from the religion you are already in.
Your NO ONE. Get over it and get a life. Leave people alone. Am I judging you now? YES. Why? Because you keep challenging me and any my beleifs. But AGAIN you don't know a thing about me. If you would back off and leave me alone, MAYBE you would learn more about me. But nooo.. all you want to do is to TRY to prove a POINT and degrade the beleifs of others. I however do not discourage others from beliving God. Doesn't matter what religion because I talk to people of all religions. Maybe you should listen to what people are wanting more instead of degrading what little faith they may have left. Wether their faith is misplaced or not is NOT YOUR CALL! ALSO, another thing, you degrade MY way of how I solved the right religious belief for ME. Why? I didn't say that it was for EVERYONE. I said it worked for ME. So again, I REPEAT, your NOT gettting the point and you need to READ what I am saying instead of JUMPING the gun!
tumblingdown - You bring up a VERY good point as to what religion has to do with God. If you have a Bible and beleive the bible to be from God, then please, read the book of Genesis chapter 10 and 11. The answer lies within. (Particularly when it comes to the Tower of Babylon.) Pay close attention to that time period when King Nim'Rod challenged God. Find out what God did in return. That in turn will explain where all the different languages and religions around the world started from. :) If you still don't understand, e-mail me and i'll explain what It mean. Then, if you don't beleif it, then hey, no one is forcing you to belive it. Well maybe with the acception of Gen-X, he may try to force it on you.. LOL
Knight Vision
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If you have a Bible and beleive the bible to be from God
This is my point - i don't. The only thing the Bible has to do with God, is that God is the subject of the story.
/me suggests every psuedo-theologian whips off and studies
biblical and historical fact and timelines ;-)
I will however read the chapters when i get the chance.
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...That in turn will explain where all the different languages and religions around the world started from.
have you by chance, read Snowcrash?
tumblingdown - Ok, see, that is why I asked. I didn't want to presume that you agree with the bible. This is why I ask questions and let you answer it. I want to know more about what you do beleive. I am curious as to who you worship, if you worship any god at all. But, please, e-mail it to me. For I know you will be critisized for your belifs in a public chat room. I am not here to persuade you from your beleifs. So please don't think I'm going to convert you. That is not my intention. I do not want, nor have the power to do so.
It is custom where I am from, to talk about the bible. I do understand religions that do not use the bible, and therefore I respect that decision. I too used to study in such ways. I'm not going to dictate wether it's wrong or right. But for ME, I have chosen that it's not my choice after looking into it. I did not make this choice purely on someone elses percecption. And that is what this whole ball of wax is about. You choose. No one else can do that for you. :)
Knight
tumblingdown, what about that book, Snowcrash? What is it all about?
The only thing that religion has to do with God, is that God is the subject of the stories.
Thanks, that's exactly the statement i was looking for. :)
hmmm
according to my religion
God has to do with EVERYTHING from his first and last breath..
Kovan, I just want to clarify something in my mind, before you get attacked by Gen-X LOL You say GOD's first and last breath... Am I correct in thinking that you beleive in the bible and that you beleive that Jesus is God? The only reason I am asking this is to find out your beleifs..
And people should NOT attack his beleifs. A lot of people have this beleif. I however do not, but I don't want to accidently trample on Kovan's toes either. So I am asking him to know more about it.
John 1:18 is the reason I ask this question.. :)
Thanks.
Knight Vision
[Edited by Knight_Vision on 10-17-2000 at 04:28 PM]
Kedaman
I don't know why I am bothering with this... perhaps it is some whistful hope that perhaps we can breach the communication barrier we have.
What a person believes in provides an insight into their character. If I said "My belief structure is that God is an Apple" you would be able to assertain something about me as a person right?Quote:
1. you are looking at "a persons belief structure" to comment it. May I ask WHY??????
I am hoping that these people will understand that perhaps their beliefs are not 100% and are in fact 99%. The whole reason I do this is because it is my opinion that those people who have absolute faith (read that 100%) are ultimately BLIND... and if I can provide someone with at least 1% doubt then they no longer limit themselves and can look with TRUE eyes and not those of someone who has been trained NOT to look.Quote:
2. you are looking at christians, hang up at details, contradictions and accuse God for them, and doing this collecting evidence that there is no God. May I also ask, what you are trying to accomplish?
I don't really understand this question. A Christian is someone who believes that "God" is the one as stated in the Bible. They also believe that he is the only god and that he was responsible for the creation of the universe.Quote:
3. May I also ask you why you would think there is a connection between Christians, and a possible God?
So if you actually classify yourself as a "Christian" then that automatically shows that you have classified yourself under a definition of a book called the Bible which is a religion and about God.
Knight Vision
Then how about instead of moaning and winging like a mewing kitten you actually start STATING what it is you DO believe instead of leaving it unexplained.Quote:
Gen-X, again your presuming again.. I no longer care to discuss anything with you. Your too ignorant when it comes to people and their ways.
You make bold statements like "You cut away those that don't believe in everlasting life" and yet you don't provide anything to support WHY that is in fact valid.
You can talk! Someone who is so absolutely and positively blinded by what they believe they are unwilling to accept for even a second the *possibility* of anything other than what they want to be the truth.Quote:
your too hung up on other's beleifs that you can't even see your own problems
Read what I said to Kedaman.Quote:
Why do you get involved knowledge of others? They are NOT trying to change you? So why are you even here in this discussion?
But I do understand WHY people believe in the Bible. I can clearly see their belief in a relgion stems from the need to be supported in areas they are not capable... That they need an explaination for things they cannot explain in order to be able to function.Quote:
Your not here to learn, THAT IS OBVIOUS! If you were here to learn, you would have seen WHY people beleive in the bible.
That you disagree with that explaination doesn't make me wrong, nor does the fact I believe it make me right... But it certainly doesn't mean I am not here to learn and it certainly doesn't mean I don't understand. Its the difference in opinion that is the problem.
If I were to hypnotise you and tell you the number 7 didn't exist you would argue just as you are now... believing there is no number seven and that I am NOT wanting to learn because I keep saying there is.
You see a woman about to step into the road infront of a car. You stop her and tell her that the car would hit her. She looks and says "I don't see a car" and keeps walking.Quote:
WHO ARE TO JUDGE?
What are you going to do? Just let her walk into the road? Think to yourself "Well its her choice" and watch as she kills herself? Or are you going to continue telling her because you believe you can SEE a car and that for some reason she cannot?
If you don't understand this concept then you truely do not understand very much about truth and here you keep saying you seek it.
Ahhh... so its ok to judge now that you have justified it? Nice.. very nice... Good back door to have. Be all righteous and holier-than-thou and say it is bad to judge but then validate it so you can do it yourself.Quote:
Am I judging you now? YES. Why? Because you keep challenging me and any my beleifs.
What a wondeful human quality you have there... very Christianlike.
Actually you didn't say "It was easy for ME to decide the right religion for ME", you actually said "It is easy to decide the right religion". That doesn't sound like you were talking specifically about YOU.Quote:
I didn't say that it was for EVERYONE. I said it worked for ME
I do believe you just "presumed" that this person has beliefs and is not athiest. Interesting... You keep talking about not jumping to conclusions and yet this statement very much shows you are starting to make assumptions... even about whether he will be critisized or not.Quote:
For I know you will be critisized for your belifs in a public chat room. I am not here to persuade you from your beleifs
Hypocrit.
If you had bothered to read anything on this forum you would know extremely well that Kovan is muslim. Obviously you have an inability to read on here... considering several posts regarding the current crisis in the middle east POSTED by kovan I would have thought a "seeker of truth" would have at least browsed them and known this.Quote:
Kovan, I just want to clarify something in my mind, before you get attacked by Gen-X LOL
Well you did. Someone who has posted several topics about contradictions in the bible and about the crisis in the middle east and you didn't even give him enough respect to find out who he was... you just came jumping in.Quote:
And people should NOT attack his beleifs. A lot of people have this beleif. I however do not, but I don't want to accidently trample on Kovan's toes either.
Tsk, tsk... How hypocritical.
You talk one thing Knight Vision.. yet act another.. I cannot respect a person who justifies their own actions and then condemns others.
As for me... I know I make mistakes and you get appologies when I make them... You however seem to be incapable of making mistakes. Call me what you will.. I know I am abrasive and I know I come across bad... but I don't try and "pretend" like I am a perfect person... you however like to give off that impression you are ABOVE other people
The mistake most of you are making is equating Gen-Xs attacks on religon as direct attacks on the existence of God.
Organised religon, (of any creed) is an attempt to codify the existence of God in such a form as it will support the hierarchy of that religon. The spread of christianity in Britian was an attempt to stamp out the local "religons" as rallying points. Also witness it's use, (and especially the promotion of anti-Witch craft etc), to down play women's roles in society. The same l might add could be applied to the Muslem faith, especially those caring and sharing folk in Afghanistan.
The requirement to believe in a set religon in order to believe in god is misleading and deceptive. As Queen Elizabeth stated, "I do not wish to open windows into man's souls".
Therefore can we be a bit more selective here, and decide waht we are debating, organised religon or the existence of god.
Interesting that kovan got a whole thread going just to attack Gen-X, a bit put out were we with some of his comments.
What is an apostate?
Wow, took me forever to read the posts here. ;)
you guys get into some deep stuff. Is this normal?
You all make some good points IMHO. From what I can see, KV is just trying to keep the peace.. But, that's just MHO.. :)
Hey Gen-X, how long you been studying religion? If it's none of my business, just say so, I will but out.. ;)
EBG
EBG
If I may call you EBG for short ;)
No I would never tell a person to butt out. Everyone has a right to what they want to say, if someone offends you then in my honest, humble and lowly opinion that means you are either sensitive about the topic or you know you might be wrong.....
People rarely get upset (frustrated yes but not upset) when someone wants to make comments about something you say if they believe there is truth in it.
How long have I been "studying" religion?
That is a bit of a double-negative... If I did in fact "study" religion that means I would see worth in studying it and therefor would probably believe in it. I have been both in and around religion all of my life and if you feel that constitutes "study" then the answer would be all of my life.
I sat through many a Bible-study when I was going out with someone who was religous and was always amazed at how they twisted things so that they conformed with what made them comfortable. I would always point out the glaring flaws and they just got angry because I didn't "conform".
I've been a student of human nature all of my life however... probably seen more people up close than most people do having worked in a place where several hundred people crossed my path each day and I spent my time watching how they interacted and worked.
Though I am sure some people on here would say all of that accounts for a hill of beans and that I have no right to make any comments about anything... Convenient don't you think ;)
Gen-X
Hahaha, yes, you can call me EBG.. ;)
It's interesting how a person lives nowdays. People can be passionate about the most unigue things. From what I have observed here, you and KV actuall have somethng in common. You both probably don't beleive it though. You said yourself that you have studied human nature all your life and KV said something about Human condition. Am I wrong? Your both compassionate about how you beleive. I think that's kewl!!!!
See, who says you guys can't get along.. Hahahahaha
EBG
hmmm, maybe EatenByGators has a point. Maybe there is something I am overlooking about Gen-X. All I was trying to do was defend myself from his attacks though.
however, I will step up to the plate and call it a truce to Gen-X about this whole thing. What do you say Gen?
:: Hand extended to shake Gen's hand. ::
I apologize if I have offended you. Let's put our differences asside and move on.
Knight
Ewww.. a hush is in the crowd... shshshs
HEY, WILL SOMEBODY SHUT THAT DAMN CRICKET UP!!!
LOL
;)
EBG
*shaking hand*
I can accept that and am sorry that my way appeared to attack you.
To be honest you haven't offended me... I'm the hardest person on the earth to offend... frustrate yes, but never offend :)
In all honesty the only reason I bother with these debates is because I don't like anything that is 100%. It means you have reached the end, there is nothing left to know or grow from and religion and those who believe in it (IMHO) tend to believe in it 100%.
I guess its my own short-sightedness to place everyone in the same boat before actually making sure they actually ARE in that boat.
You have certainly taught me that KV ;)
Yep, this is really important, at least for me, we have been like "doing nothing" for ages and for the first time i think I get somewhere, and I think if you read what i'm going to post, you could learn something. I'm sorry if had to get that offensive but you know, we know each other, and I just had to get a reply from you.
Commenting belief structure
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What a person believes in provides an insight into their character. If I said "My belief structure is that God is an Apple" you would be able to assertain something about me as a person right?
Apple... Yeah I know what you mean, You like to hear the details and correct them. You've been doing that for ages now. You know as well, I don't have those details and you should be proud if that was your goal. But that's not totally correct. You're instead a bit upset with me, trying to ignore me. And the only statement i'm usually making about God is that I believe he exist, and that I don't have any faith in any detailed views of him. This seems to make you nervous. I hope you can get over this because tumblingdown, had a good point, and that is to religion will disappear (your work eliminating the details will be a success) And only two types of people will remain, those who don't believe in that God exists, and those who believe there is. Without any details, and definition of God, as you know, the creator of universe. However I hope you take me seriously, I'm going to ask you directly, What do you really have against me? What is so uncomfortable to have me around?Quote:
I am hoping that these people will understand that perhaps their beliefs are not 100% and are in fact 99%. The whole reason I do this is because it is my opinion that those people who have absolute faith (read that 100%) are ultimately BLIND... and if I can provide someone with at least 1% doubt then they no longer limit themselves and can look with TRUE eyes and not those of someone who has been trained NOT to look.
BTW, I forgot to take that Orange Juice, thanks Arbiter
Kedaman
Actually I get "frustrated" with you... not upset. Ignoring you is because of the frustration and because I don't want it to end in a flame war again.Quote:
You're instead a bit upset with me, trying to ignore me
The reason I get frustrated is because your personal belief is structured in such a way that makes it compeletely impossible to quantify, existing in no place other than your head.
Do you know how frustrating it is to have someone say something, state it like it is a fact and then say it is impossible to disprove because the only proof exists in a place you cannot reach? :)
Exactly. You make a statement and then say you have no details yet say that you are 100% right in your statement. That is what I find frustrating.Quote:
And the only statement i'm usually making about God is that I believe he exist, and that I don't have any faith in any detailed views of him.
If I were to say to you.. "I am 12 feet tall" you would say "prove it, send me a picture". If I then said "I don't have any pictures" you would simply doubt I was 12 feet tall and because I was unwilling to provide evidence means you would doubt me even more. That is how I feel when you describe your belief of God... like you are saying you are 12 feet tall but won't prove it.
Frustrated... not nervous. Exasperated.. not nervous. Nothing makes me nervous because being nervous would mean I am afraid of some kind of answer when I welcome any answer that could provide me greater insight. I just don't see your answers as providing insight because they are NOT answers but unsupported personal statements.Quote:
seems to make you nervous
I have nothing against you, honestly. The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other. When either of us say something the other takes it completely the wrong way (ie you thinking I am nervous or upset) and both of us end up frustrated at the others apparent innability to see what we are saying.Quote:
What do you really have against me? What is so uncomfortable to have me around?
Sometimes I read what you say (as I am sure you do when reading what I say as well) and have absolutely no idea what you are getting at. I find some of the english stuttering (which is completely not your fault and far more than I could even manage in any other language) and I have to re-read it several times to make sure I understand what you are actually asking.
So I have nothing against you yourself... but against the situation that keeps arising time and again that when we talk to each other "something" gets crossed in the middle and we don't get anywhere.
I hope this makes sense to you... I truely and honestly do, and what I have written was said as sincerely as I can put it into text. If any of it comes across less than sincere then that is my inability to express myself in a textual reply and not as a result of intention.
Now you see this is what I think it comes down to - a hunch. Just a gut feeling. When you take away the doctrine of the various religions, and you wonder about the existence of God, you just have to sort of... guess.
Don't worry about a flamewar Gen-X, so don't be frustrated either,
A flamewar would just result in another useless amount of post.
And probably tons of other peoples heads too, maybe the majority? Gen-X, If you get frustrated about that somone believes there is a God, then you have a big problem, because there always will be.Quote:
The reason I get frustrated is because your personal belief is structured in such a way that makes it compeletely impossible to quantify, existing in no place other than your head.
I'm not sure what you meant by "compeletely impossible to quantify" So however i'm not sure what you really meant, isn't it nice that I tell you this and ask for an explanation instead of flaming on?
Now i have never stated God's existance as a fact. I hope that removed some of your frustration. BTW, that's contradicting to say something is a fact and can't be prooved.Quote:
Do you know how frustrating it is to have someone say something, state it like it is a fact and then say it is impossible to disprove because the only proof exists in a place you cannot reach?
My statement, sorry to make it sound like a fact, was my belief, i meant to state my belief, not to state that it is a fact.
Thanks. Now i hope i've bringed you some insights of how i think. You said I state facts from my personal beliefs, my intentions are the opposite.Quote:
I welcome any answer that could provide me greater insight
Some people, like Harry see all of our intentions, Therefore i'm not sure about the communication itself is wrong. It's the toughts and ideas that don't pass trough our mental filters.Quote:
The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other
i have NO clue where to start and stop based on what was said..
so if anyone want their post replied by me please let me know
I realize you are saying this to Kedaman, but I have found your statement to be VERY true here. The Internet in general is complex. But the we can all communicate with each other. But that doesn't mean we will understad each other. For example, we missing some of the other elements in a conversation. (Voice stress, body language etc..) These are used in conjuction to explain somethng that may not make sense to another without these qulities. Example. I say this Fish was HUGE. You read it and your thinking HUGE as 50 feet, when I am only saying it to be 4 feet. But if you were here in person, I could SHOW you with my gestures.Quote:
Gen-X - I have nothing against you, honestly. The problem is that we find it difficult communicating with each other. When either of us say something the other takes it completely the wrong way (ie you thinking I am nervous or upset) and both of us end up frustrated at the others apparent innability to see what we are saying.
My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier. Of course you can get SOME tidbits here and there, but you will NEVER get the full picture of what another person is talking about.
Now do you understand where I am comming from Gen-X ?
Knight
Ahhh, you two kissed and made up.. how sweet.. LOL
Hey KV, I do understand.. what finger am I holding up? Hahahahahaha
I'm just raggin ya... Yes, I do understand what KV is saying and that is soooooo true.. I communicate with people every day, and I have noticed one fact. If you are busy, and don't have time to talk, sometimes the other person takes it the wrong way thinking your pissed off at him. When your REALLY not. Your just busy and don't have time to talk. Simple ehh? heh.. not as simple as you might think. It's rough trying to explain that "No.... I wasn't pissed, I just had some work I had to do... nothing meant by it."
So, KV, keep up the good work, I may not beleive what you beleive, (Not sure I even know what I beleive.. LOL) but I think your intentions are good and hope it works out. ;)
EBG
Harry
I think that is where I differ from other people. To me a "guess" is to collect as much information as you have and to make an educated assessment on what the answer is.Quote:
you just have to sort of... guess
Now I know "educated assessment" is a fancy way of saying "guess" but for other people "guessing" is as you said... a gut-feeling or a hunch and not something based on trying to work out what the answer could be.
Kedaman
Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.Quote:
Gen-X, If you get frustrated about that somone believes there is a God, then you have a big problem, because there always will be
When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.
I think you were like I was earlier. We stated something and because we believed in it we kind of gave it more credibility than just being our opinion. Way, way back in the beginning when you first stated your belief you stated it in such a way that made it sound like it was absolute and definate (something I do a lot of unfortunately :( ) and so from then on I took that to be your belief.Quote:
Now i have never stated God's existance as a fact. I hope that removed some of your frustration
But now I am of the understanding it is your opinion that God must exists and that you don't really have anything other than what convinced yourself that this is true. :)
It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?Quote:
Now i hope i've bringed you some insights of how i think.
Thats because he isn't the one they are directed at ;)Quote:
Some people, like Harry see all of our intentions
That I most definately agree with.Quote:
It's the toughts and ideas that don't pass trough our mental filters.
Knight Vision
That is what I was trying to put across to you when I said I was not attacking you. Though the words themselves would have came out like I was trying to tear you down if you could have heard those words spoken you would have heard the calm inquisitory nature of someone who breaks things down to determine their validity. If they are incapable of being broken down then they can withstand scrutiny.Quote:
but I have found your statement to be VERY true here
It was a questioning and debating nature and not an attacking one... but as you so rightly pointed out it gets terribly lost on here.
I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on cross-references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.Quote:
My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.
It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it ;)
This is why I go on about quite a few things. Those who believe in the Bible believe in the fact that "their" God is the one that created the universe and everything in it. That would mean every other person who beleived in a different God that created the universe would have to be wrong in your eyes and that kind of xenophobic seperatism is what I truely dislike most about religions.
Does that make sense to you KV? Can you see where it is I am coming from on this? I truely have humanity's best interests at heart in my purpose for discussing it... I can't help but feeling those of a specific religion only have "their" people best at heart :(
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KV - My point here is this, the bible or "religion" is also in such a way useless to talk about over the net because of the same barrier.
Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too. Remember, there are multiple languages on the net and we all don't see things the same way. That's all I was saying. Remember, WARS have been started over religion and that is without the Internet.. LOLQuote:
Gen-X - I am not sure I completely agree with this. I do understand and agree that you cannot get the spiritual side of the religion, or the emotion and feeling in it.. but surely you can get the doctrine well and truely put across. After all they are words on a page just like the Bible and thus can be analysed for their integrity based on references and contradictions... just like reading a science book.
I agree with you saying it's a Guide to life. But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing. ;)Quote:
Gen-X - It is supposed to be a "guide to life" and yet if it is not possible to look at it logically then its not much of a guide is it.
Knight Vision
Knight Vision
Excuse my ignorance then but if the Bible does not put across all that it is meant to, why would God have made it the only PHYSICAL source of his direction?Quote:
Actually, talking about a doctrine is not always as easy as it may seem. Like I gave the "HUGE FISH" example, well there are things in the bible that is like that too
Surely he would have chosen the most succinct and most clear method of telling his people how he wanted them to live. If he then placed them in a medium that left itself open to such large diversity in meaning and understanding it seems it would CREATE more problems than solve them.
Somehow I cannot see the creator of the universe who knows all and sees all willingly directing the creation of a book that would not convey what he wanted.
I guess the rhetoric to that is "Thats why you go to church and talk with other people"... But that puts humans into the mix and we all know humans are even worse than the written word when it comes to hidden meanings, ulterior motives and just plain human error.
Who ever said anything about just browsing its pages? Most of the people who have commented on it in here have read the SPECIFIC verses, looked at the surrounding context and then made direct statements about what was written... no browsing went on at all.Quote:
But, even a tech manual can be complicated for people who only browse its pages. In fact, there is a scripture that talks about this very thing.
Even a technical manual you can read a specific section and its context and be able to comment specifically on it because ALL the context is correct... not just a portion.
For instance.....
In Genesis it says God took 6 days to create the universe. Now theologists use the excuse "Ah but a day doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period" and yet elsewhere in the Bible when God told man to make the Ark of the Covenant he said to make it X cubits wide and Y cubits long... he was VERY precise.
Why then would God dictate words such as "day" which have SPECIFIC meaning to the people he was telling it to and then really mean a different scale of units? If this were the case would have said it took 6 "very long but undetermined periods of time" to create the universe.
It is that kind of contradiction that can be read about, studied and then presented in a logical manner.
Unforutnately all the answers or explainations to this are NOT logical and most of them try to find ways to AVOID this glaring fault and still maintain their beliefs. That is where the problem comes in in my honest and humble opinion... we don't talk on level playing fields, one side would never admit a flaw even if they did see it... because that would mean they could no longer place 100% credibility in that which they have built their life around.
So their motives reveals the reasons they think the way they do. My motive is just to find the truth... and if it states something that is completely without flaw I will agree with it completely.
Gen-X
You feel more comfortable with a Christian or Muslim, than me? Just because they have more flawed beliefs? And yet you try to remove them, one by one, and if you succeed, you will just feel more uncofortable. I have to ask for your motives again.Quote:
Most people say they are Christian or Muslim or that they follow a "particular" view of what God is, rather than just "he is". That then makes it possible to look at the source of their belief and to see if it is flawed.
When you say it there is no source, no book, no law, nothing having been written or come down and so you cannot analyse it to determine if it has merrit. That is what I mean by completely impossible to quantify, at least talking with Harry or Kovan you can look at the same material they read and see for yourself if you think it is valid.
Not exactly, maybe but that's not the usual word "creator" we would think about, since the creation were talking about is a bit difficult to explain in detail.Quote:
It has a bit. Just to confirm that I am reading you right is it the fact that you believe the universe must have been created at some time and thus must have a "creator" that is the main reason you believe in a God?
There is really no useful information to base an educated guess on though. Gen-X, you often say that the lack of information means something, but I don't see it like that. I don't presume to make assumptions about the nature of God.
Also, I would like to say that I am really not a member of any specific religion. I don't read religious material, or at least I don't go out of my way to do so. I am not a good example of someone with standard, well documented religious beliefs.