School Shotings and Weapons Ban

Many people ask me if I carry a gun when I wander off into the woods for weeks at a time. I don't. They weigh too much, and aren't useful enough. I weighed the cost/benefits, and came to this conclusion. The problem is this: there are situations where a gun is the only suitable tool. However, the situation has to be just right. In the woods, you MUST have sufficient time to react, because even with a gun you are less well armed than most of the things that might attack you. In a domestic setting, that may not be the case. If your assailant is less well armed than you, you have a chance even if you are surprised.

If you work through the scenarios, you need more than a gun to win in a domestic incident (burglary or what not), you also need a certain amount of luck. However, the costs of having a gun in the house are more nebulous. For me, the cost of a gun is serious due to the weight. There is no weight issue in a house, the question comes down to maximizing the utility of the gun while minimizing the incidental risk.

In any case, there is a calculation, and you had best make it.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Many people ask me if I carry a gun when I wander off into the woods for weeks at a time. I don't. They weigh too much, and aren't useful enough. I weighed the cost/benefits, and came to this conclusion. The problem is this: there are situations where a gun is the only suitable tool. However, the situation has to be just right. In the woods, you MUST have sufficient time to react, because even with a gun you are less well armed than most of the things that might attack you. In a domestic setting, that may not be the case. If your assailant is less well armed than you, you have a chance even if you are surprised.

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A small lightweight pistol are usefull in the outdoors as noisemakers. A couple shots in the air will usually freeze or scare away an attaking critter like mountain lions, raccoons(yes they do attack) or coyotes and the like. Unfortunatly most attacks are from Bears(if you go near their cubs) Snakes and spiders in which case your gun will com in handy as a self execution device to avoid a painfull death. LOL

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Originally Posted by Alaska Department of Fish and Game

In light of the rising frequency of human - grizzly bear conflicts, the Alaska Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions and keep alert of bears while in the field.

We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity.

Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear & grizzly bear excrement. Black bear excrement is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur. Grizzly bear excrement has little bells in it and smells like pepper.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know Shaggy has bells on his outfit

:bigyello:

And I'm sure he keeps his eyes out for fresh signs of bear activity. You know, a pile of cigarette butts and a couple empty Strohs cans smashed up by a tree.

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Originally Posted by demotivater

Self preservation, perhaps.

Of course the statistics will say it's unsafe to have a gun in your home, that only makes sense. A home with a gun is more likely to have some sort of gun related incident than a home without. Um, duh? And a home with electricity is more likely to have an electrical fire than a home without electricity.

This kind of debate is, in general, pointless. There are a multitude of pro's, and a multitude of con's. Bottom line, for me anyway, my constitution says it's my right to own a gun, so I do. The last thing I'd want to do is spend a few days cleaning some scumbags blood and guts off my floor, but I'd certainly do it if it came to that.

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It's very convenient for the sake of argument to compare electricity with guns. The only thing you forget is the electricity that is probably more lethal than a gun is heavily shielded from a human being. You have well insulated wiring with fuses and whatnots to protect your home from any foreseen electrical mishaps. You don't have a comparable safety for a gun. For the logical reason that if you make the gun difficult to reach, you wouldn't have any use for it because when you need it you wouldn't be able to reach it soon enough. So if you protect the gun, you are in trouble. If you don't protect it you are in trouble. Not the same with electricity (unless of course you have naked wires running all over your home, connected directly to the main power lines.

Hell the electrical company could be held responsible for any mishaps occuring because of a fault on their part, but the gun manufacturers don't want to hear any of it. They don't even want to ensure their guns would only land with genuine customers i.e. "peace-loving citizens" and not lunatics and criminals. Why would anyone need an automatic weapon to "defend" himself, after all? If that's really the case, that people need automatics to defend themselves, or go hunting with an AK 47 or the like, I think America has turned into a jungle, with the law of the jungle prevailing.

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Originally Posted by nemaroller

School shootings happen everywhere, and it has no correlation with how strict gun laws are -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1953425.stm

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Haven't heard of any school shootings (specially by students) in our country. And here we have two separate categories even in the police department: armed and unarmed.

Just to clear up any confusion:

In all the four incidents from the USA, mentioned in that reoprt, it's the students who have killed others. A parellel can only be found in the incidents reported from Germany, where again I guess half the shooters are "former" pupils.

School shootings happen "everywhere"? I guess the world is much much bigger than Scotland, Yemen, USA and Germany put together :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by MasterBlaster

A small lightweight pistol are usefull in the outdoors as noisemakers. A couple shots in the air will usually freeze or scare away an attaking critter like mountain lions, raccoons(yes they do attack) or coyotes and the like. Unfortunatly most attacks are from Bears(if you go near their cubs) Snakes and spiders in which case your gun will com in handy as a self execution device to avoid a painfull death. LOL

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Considering that I have weighed my spoons, I suspect that your idea of lightweight, and mine are different. Frankly, a couple firecrackers are of greater value than a small pistol in the woods.

As for raccoons, I actually got in a fight with one over a table in an Everglades restraunt. The raccoon hopped up into the chair next to me, and started stealing things off the table. I whacked it with the centerpiece, and the fight was on.

The odd thing about it was that, while there were plenty of other people in the restraunt, nobody appeared to find it at all unusual that I was having a tug-of-war with a raccoon over the centerpiece. Nobody took any notice. Those darn 'coons are strong, too. Should have hit him with the grated pepper.

I think the greatest threat in this state is probably mountain lions, rather than bears.....no wait, I forgot about Idabillies! They are the most dangerous.

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Originally Posted by honeybee

It's very convenient for the sake of argument to compare electricity with guns. The only thing you forget is the electricity that is probably more lethal than a gun is heavily shielded from a human being. You have well insulated wiring with fuses and whatnots to protect your home from any foreseen electrical mishaps. You don't have a comparable safety for a gun. For the logical reason that if you make the gun difficult to reach, you wouldn't have any use for it because when you need it you wouldn't be able to reach it soon enough. So if you protect the gun, you are in trouble. If you don't protect it you are in trouble. Not the same with electricity (unless of course you have naked wires running all over your home, connected directly to the main power lines.

Hell the electrical company could be held responsible for any mishaps occuring because of a fault on their part, but the gun manufacturers don't want to hear any of it. They don't even want to ensure their guns would only land with genuine customers i.e. "peace-loving citizens" and not lunatics and criminals. Why would anyone need an automatic weapon to "defend" himself, after all? If that's really the case, that people need automatics to defend themselves, or go hunting with an AK 47 or the like, I think America has turned into a jungle, with the law of the jungle prevailing.

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Replace electricity with matches. :rolleyes:

I wasn't actually comparing electricity to firearms, just pointing out the silliness of the "more likely" arguement.

You're generalizing to much. From what you said, if there's a gun in the house, you're in trouble, period. That's rediculous and just plain not true.
And when you live in this country, then your opinions about it might carry some weight.

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Originally Posted by demotivater

Replace electricity with matches. :rolleyes:

I wasn't actually comparing electricity to firearms, just pointing out the silliness of the "more likely" arguement.

You're generalizing to much. From what you said, if there's a gun in the house, you're in trouble, period. That's rediculous and just plain not true.
And when you live in this country, then your opinions about it might carry some weight.

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Yeah, that's a good point, me not being American would probably not understand some of the intricacies. However the generalization still holds.

And the killer had a 14-year old girlfriend who's carrying his baby???? Pregnant at 14???

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Originally Posted by honeybee

Pregnant at 14???
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Hey, they can get pregnant even younger!
I knew one who ended up pregnant by 13.
You got to get started early if you really want to be on welfare.

My favorite is the high schools with day care for students babies. I guess they serve a good purpose, just to bad they're even needed.

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Originally Posted by dglienna

It is illegal to carry a weapon in all but a few of the states,

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That isn't really true at all. In most states you can apply for a consealed carry permit, which allows you to carry your gun legally in most places. As long as you haven't committed any major crimes, it is relatively easy to get one of those permits in most states. If you take a hand gun class you can apply for a Non-Resident Flordia permit which allows you to carry your firearm in about 34 states.

I've never heard that, and I have never seen anyone with a weapon on them out in the open (non-concealed) except for police officials. Concealed is another thing altogether, and most of those were illicit, at least in my state.

I think if I had been carrying a gun, that I would have shot someone by now, so it's better off that I haven't. Lots of people are getting shot over traffic disputes. Glad it never happened to me.

I never thought about this angle:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4386653.stm

But then since he didn't make any statement till it was too late, this angle could actually be true.

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Originally Posted by honeybee

Haven't heard of any school shootings (specially by students) in our country. And here we have two separate categories even in the police department: armed and unarmed.

Just to clear up any confusion:

In all the four incidents from the USA, mentioned in that reoprt, it's the students who have killed others. A parellel can only be found in the incidents reported from Germany, where again I guess half the shooters are "former" pupils.

School shootings happen "everywhere"? I guess the world is much much bigger than Scotland, Yemen, USA and Germany put together :rolleyes:

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Point to note - someone mentioned they happen only in the US. Perhaps you'd be more satisfied with 'school shootings CAN happen anywhere'. How about kniving rampages?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1376982.stm

I suggest you stop arming bears :eek:

I'm sure the schools in India are perfectly safe, well, unless it's a Christian school eh, honeybee?

Imagine if you armed 'Bees ?

Bees are already armed well enough for my comfort.

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Originally Posted by nemaroller

Point to note - someone mentioned they happen only in the US. Perhaps you'd be more satisfied with 'school shootings CAN happen anywhere'. How about kniving rampages?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/1376982.stm

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To counter such stupid arguments, I can only say that school shootings don't seem to happen in countless other countries where carrying a gun is ordinarily not allowed.

So now you want to equate knives with guns? Nice try. :rolleyes: I shall wait till you get to the level of equating guns with a fistfight before I can even think of responding to that argument.

Jeez, it sure looks as if individual opinion counts more than the general welfare....

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Our gun laws are not what created this problem. People have had the right to carry arms since the beginning of our country. It's what makes america one of the hardest countires to invade on earth, because the civilians are armed better then some armys out there in the world.

Instead I blame this on 2 different factors. 1. The media in our country has changed a lot in a bad way. A lot of music out there tries to make ganster life look great. 2. There is a ****load of single parents out there trying to raise kids by themselves.

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Originally Posted by Maven

It's what makes america one of the hardest countires to invade on earth, because the civilians are armed better then some armys out there in the world.

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Lol, dont forgot that your all so fat our tanks would have trouble running you over.

I think tradgedys like this happen because some people like hurting others. People are the most vicious animals on the face of the earth, get over it.

Honeybee, being shot or being stabbed really makes no difference - you're pretty much doomed either way. One is far more efficient and quick however. I posted the kniving rampage as a proof of concept - a person can still do much damage with such a simple weapon.

I'm not a gun advocate, I live in America, and quite frankly, there is a very small percentage of the population that would even think of carrying a gun on their person through public - unless they are hunting or law enforcement.

Bottom line - what about America's gun laws makes you upset? I don't see how someone living in another country can be so concerned. Living is a risk - you can be shot, hit by a bus, get stabbed, have a fatal heart attack, slip down your stairs and break your neck.

Also, I'm also 6 foot and 150 pounds - and I'd appreciate you foreigners keep your misguided dillusional perceptions about me to yourself.

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Originally Posted by nemaroller

Also, I'm also 6 foot and 150 pounds - and I'd appreciate you foreigners keep your misguided dillusional perceptions about me to yourself.

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My apologies, it appears only 127 million from 293 million of you are overweight.

Well done you, keep it up.

http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/obesity_US.shtml
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...us.html#People

By the way, this is the internet, there are no foreigners here.

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Originally Posted by honeybee

To counter such stupid arguments, I can only say that school shootings don't seem to happen in countless other countries where carrying a gun is ordinarily not allowed.

So now you want to equate knives with guns? Nice try. :rolleyes: I shall wait till you get to the level of equating guns with a fistfight before I can even think of responding to that argument.

Jeez, it sure looks as if individual opinion counts more than the general welfare....

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As I stated before violent crime is on the rise in the UK while it has been steadily declining in the US since the 1980’s. While guns are outlawed in the UK the average US citizen has no trouble obtaining one. Therefore the argument put forth that guns are the sole cause of violent crime (murder, rape, armed robbery) collapses under its own weight.

To be honest someone who writes something like “I can only say that school shootings don't seem to happen in countless other countries where carrying a gun is ordinarily not allowed.” Is akin to saying well cars that don’t have an engine are not likely to go anywhere, Duh. And you called him stupid.

His argument that violence in schools is not the sole proprietorship of the US is absolutely correct. He actually presented evidence to his argument, now I know how facts and figures seem to bother you HB and you have a hard time looking outside your little I hate Bush and the US little world but guess what? You are wrong, again. No surprise there. :)

X

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Originally Posted by davebat

My apologies, it appears only 127 million from 293 million of you are overweight.

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And most of those fatties have immigrated recently from countries like yours!

:p

just out of interest was there a reason the constitution originally was all for people bearing arms? We never learnt american history in school.

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Originally Posted by davebat

just out of interest was there a reason the constitution originally was all for people bearing arms? We never learnt american history in school.

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It's because of the fact that the common folk in England where abused by the ruling body.

So the common folk here were not going to allow that to happen again.

And guns are really not a problem here - I grew up in NYC - live 60 minutes from there now - and guns are not a problem.

People are a problem.

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Originally Posted by szlamany

And most of those fatties have immigrated recently from countries like yours!

:p

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What does "countries like yours" mean? What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by davebat

What does "countries like yours" mean? What are you talking about?

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That's me just being sarcastic. If you are going to make statements about "us all being fat", then I'm going to fire back with something as equally stupid...

Just trying to keep things light and airy :bigyello:

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Originally Posted by szlamany

That's me just being sarcastic. If you are going to make statements about "us all being fat", then I'm going to fire back with something as equally stupid...

Just trying to keep things light and airy :bigyello:

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oh well, if thats the case you all stink as well. :cool:

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Originally Posted by davebat

oh well, if thats the case you all stink as well. :cool:

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Now we are fat and smelly - eh?

Have to go for the liposuction and a day at the spa!

lol - I couldnt find a link to support it, but ill keep looking

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Originally Posted by demotivater

I'm sure the schools in India are perfectly safe, well, unless it's a Christian school eh, honeybee?

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Conveniently ignoring this one hb?

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Originally Posted by Xanith

As I stated before violent crime is on the rise in the UK while it has been steadily declining in the US since the 1980’s. While guns are outlawed in the UK the average US citizen has no trouble obtaining one. Therefore the argument put forth that guns are the sole cause of violent crime (murder, rape, armed robbery) collapses under its own weight.

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Of course it's on the decline in the US. Everyone here is to Lazy to Rob or murder anyone and we're so fat and smelly no one want's to rape us.

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Originally Posted by davebat

just out of interest was there a reason the constitution originally was all for people bearing arms? We never learnt american history in school.

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Back when that was written, it was possible for a bunch of citizens with rifles to be a credible force relative to the army. One example of this was the early part of the civil war when neither side had anything like a professional army. A better example would be Concord and Lexington, or the Whiskey Rebellion.

Today, that isn't the case any longer. The US army has weapons that even Bill G couldn't afford (he might buy some, but he couldn't maintain them). A bunch of rednecks with rifles couldn't do anything....except be terrorists. We have created a situation where armed rebellion is reserved for guerilla warfare.

The reason that amendment was added to the constitution is no longer applicable today. However, people have found new reasons for it.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

The reason that amendment was added to the constitution is no longer applicable today. However, people have found new reasons for it.

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That is not the only reason it was added to the constitution. A firearm was necessary for most of the citizens to survive when the constitution was written. For food hunting and self protection. there was no formidable police force then. Could you imagine west of the misissippi being settled by unarmed white men?

Now citizens still have a need for protection, food and to keep the government in check. It's our choice to decide if we want to rely on the government to guarentee the first two. Neither choice is right or wrong just personal preferance. You are right that an armed civillan population would loose in a landslide to the government. Considering the amout of casualties involved in becoming a police state, an armed population will still make the government think twice about taking away the bill of rights and trashing the constitution.

in general

The basic reasons for the ammendment are still around today. We just don't notice as much because of the awesome infastructure we've built to support most of the population. Owning a gun does not make you a redneck. Marrying you sister/cousin/sheep does. If a person is not a criminal and is mentally sound they should be allowed to own a gun if they see fit. If a person commits a crime with a gun then they are a criminal and should be prosecuted. It's wrong to take the rights away of a law abiding citizen because of another persons action.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

The reason that amendment was added to the constitution is no longer applicable today. However, people have found new reasons for it.

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Some would say the right to free speech or freedom of religon are no longer applicable either. Which is why it's important to take a stand against anyone touching any part of our constitution/bill of rights.

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Originally Posted by Maven

Our gun laws are not what created this problem. People have had the right to carry arms since the beginning of our country. It's what makes america one of the hardest countires to invade on earth, because the civilians are armed better then some armys out there in the world.

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:eek: Baaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaa :lol: :lol:

Oh, sorry, you were being serious.

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Originally Posted by Maven

2. There is a ****load of single parents out there trying to raise kids by themselves.

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Yeah well, if they go at it like a pair of rabbits they have to pay the price won't they! ;)

Or at least the men will while the 'Mothers' scrounge and use the money for themselves :afrog: