Designing a Form

I love creating interfaces...

I first kind of sketch them out..then figure out what images I may need. I have even integrated Macromedia flash into vb...

Comes out pretty good...
Check em out:

http://www.vbforums.com/

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http://www.vbforums.com/

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http://www.vbforums.com/

http://www.vbforums.com/

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http://www.vbforums.com/

http://www.vbforums.com/

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:afrog:

I just happened to notice that in the SPI Wizard Step #3, Avaliable Sub Categories is spelled incorrectly. Also, Sub Categories should be Subcategories or Sub-categories.

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Originally posted by MartinLiss
I just happened to notice that in the SPI Wizard Step #3, Avaliable Sub Categories is spelled incorrectly. Also, Sub Categories should be Subcategories or Sub-categories.

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Fixed:D

In the end it dpends on what the user expects... if this is an automation from an existing manual system then simply try to make it as similar as possible (with a few improvements) to the hardcopy.

jhermiz: your designs are too big. They take too much space, what if some user happens to use 800 x 600? It is still quite popular resolution and not everybody knows how to change it. Empty space is good, but there shouldn't be too much of it :)

Hmm, I tend to make my forms resizable...

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Originally posted by Merri
jhermiz: your designs are too big. They take too much space, what if some user happens to use 800 x 600? It is still quite popular resolution and not everybody knows how to change it. Empty space is good, but there shouldn't be too much of it :)

Hmm, I tend to make my forms resizable...

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95% of my forms are resizable..who said I wasn't using the resize event? This is an internal client server application...everyone in the company has 19-21" monitors.

Also I have code to resize the controls when the form is resized.

:D

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Originally posted by Merri
jhermiz: your designs are too big. They take too much space, what if some user happens to use 800 x 600? It is still quite popular resolution and not everybody knows how to change it. Empty space is good, but there shouldn't be too much of it :)

Hmm, I tend to make my forms resizable...

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Empty space? Where? You need a bit of empty space and mine is perfect. The form you posted has all the text bolded..any reason? It's also not attractive...and involves way too much clicking...I don't like it :cry:

It also doesn't have a control box (how do I minimize, maximize, or close quickly..) a lot of people are used to having that and your form just has a done / save button. I generally move my mouse to the top right corner to quickly close it to cancel or basically say I don't want to make changes. Where's the help on this form? No use of context ID's ? No color scheme at all...what if I set focus to a control? When do I need to click save, after every change? How does this thing work..click each item on a list box just to modify it ? Why not use a grid? :eek:

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Originally posted by Merri
Also, custom colors look ugly if somebody happens not to use Windows default color scheme. Like, someone might have text color white and otherwise a quite dark theme... so either use Windows system colors (tooltip color might work sometimes besides default white).

I think the form posted could be better. At the moment it has too much stuff in it, even if it is quite clear. I'm not too sure on what for the form is done so I can't give a good suggestion myself. But I'm sure there is a way to make it feel lighter and yet keep all the required functionality.

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Dont be afraid to use system colors:
when changing color in design time use the system colors tab and choose the type of object u need.

I have created a "fake" tool tip with form, and the colors are various between users in my computer, due to changes in thair own color scheme.

We believe in the KISS philosophy - keep-it-simple-stupid...

First and foremost, if you are doing something that M$ already does, like a MSGBOX with a YES/NO type question for SAVE - then make it just like M$ - 97% of the users out there are Microsoft and the people who train your software will appreciate consistency.

Second - did I say "consistency" - do it the SAME EVERYWHERE - otherwise you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Third - back to KISS - less colors, not more. SAP software has like 4000+ colors, actually chosen by a design firm - have you ever seen it - they are nuts. We use a CYAN color for the ACTIVE TEXT BOX. We use YELLOW for ERROR MESSAGES in labels and YELLOW for grid cells that are left "invalid". We use GREEN to denote a row that's been changed (just in column one).

Already got burned by this on a PROJECTOR at a DEMO - the YELLOW and GREEN looked identical - who would have thought.

But if you move away from the 8 or 16 basic colors, be prepared to test your app on lots of monitors and know what you are getting yourself into.

Fourth - things seem to be designed in WINDOWS from the UPPER LEFT (most important) to the LOWER RIGHT (no big deal). UPPER LEFT is where it's all going on. MENU - TOOLBAR. That's where the user looks. Putting something in the LOWER RIGHT corner of a form means it ain't important. That's our opinion anyway. We put our control box of command buttons in the UPPER LEFT corner. The exact same control box on each and every form - even if some are grey'd out.

Fifth - mouse requirements will burn you. The user must be able to stay on the keyboard and do work. If the job of a form is to load invoices, then count the keystrokes to perform the action. They must be minimized. Everytime you force the user to mouse click, they will hate you. Mouse clicks are fine for "out-of-the-ordinary" things on a form - but basic maneuvering must be by ENTER or TAB. The most complex routine in our app's is our FocusPilot SUB - it determines where the user last was - what state the program is in - and where focus ought to go next. VB TAB order is useless.

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Originally posted by szlamany
We believe in the KISS philosophy - keep-it-simple-stupid...
Fourth - things seem to be designed in WINDOWS from the UPPER LEFT (most important) to the LOWER RIGHT (no big deal). UPPER LEFT is where it's all going on. MENU - TOOLBAR. That's where the user looks. Putting something in the LOWER RIGHT corner of a form means it ain't important. That's our opinion anyway. We put our control box of command buttons in the UPPER LEFT corner. The exact same control box on each and every form - even if some are grey'd out.

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i believe that English is the reason for Upper Left > Lower Right.

HEBREW RULES...;)

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Originally posted by Lemon Lime
i believe that English is the reason for Upper Left > Lower Right.

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Totally backwards too - LEFT is SINISTER - RIGHT (side) is RIGHT (correct) is JUSTICE - seated at the right-hand of the...

Latin makes the most sense - but then again, they didn't have a zero (what "base" was that number system??) ;)

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Originally posted by jhermiz
The form you posted has all the text bolded..any reason? It's also not attractive...and involves way too much clicking...I don't like it :cry:

It also doesn't have a control box (how do I minimize, maximize, or close quickly..) a lot of people are used to having that and your form just has a done / save button. I generally move my mouse to the top right corner to quickly close it to cancel or basically say I don't want to make changes. Where's the help on this form? No use of context ID's ? No color scheme at all...what if I set focus to a control? When do I need to click save, after every change? How does this thing work..click each item on a list box just to modify it ? Why not use a grid? :eek: [/B]

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Just use enter and you don't need to click a single time. I can perfectly go through the form without a click. And the form doesn't have control box because it is a sample. Also, help files are basically useless (and again, this is a sample, why it would have a help button?). And the color scheme imitates the Windows 2000 style, thus white/grey style. I like it a lot better than Windows XP colors. Bold text is there because I happen to like it sometimes.

As for the Grid, nowadays I never use OCXs unless I'm helping someone out here in the forums. I used ListBox because it is easy to add and you could make it look better by setting a custom tab space (as I mentioned earlier in this topic).


Then the logic of the form:

- pick an item to edit from the combobox in the top
- change values below, move by tab or by enter (I didn't code enter to generally work in all controls => sample)
- click Save to save changes to that particular item or pick another item to discard changes
- click Done to close the window (and of course if it had unsaved data, there should be a confirm messagebox)


Generally, all I can say it is a sample. This just to point out the difference between commenting my design form and your ready and polished designs. Somehow, I feel like getting a bomb for giving constructive critic so you could make your design better.


And the resize comment didn't have anything to do with your designs ;)

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Originally posted by szlamany
Totally backwards too - LEFT is SINISTER - RIGHT (side) is RIGHT (correct) is JUSTICE - seated at the right-hand of the...

Latin makes the most sense - but then again, they didn't have a zero (what "base" was that number system??) ;)

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actually when I'm writeing in Hebrew with PILOT 0.7 the paper looks like someone spitted on it and tried to ruin my notebook.
so i probobly have to be left handed (like 10% of people in earth)

:bigyello:

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Generally, all I can say it is a sample. This just to point out the difference between commenting my design form and your ready and polished designs. Somehow, I feel like getting a bomb for giving constructive critic so you could make your design better.

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I'd say my design looks a helluva lot better than yours :D
Help is useless ???? WHAT!!!! How can help files be useless ???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

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And the resize comment didn't have anything to do with your designs ;) [/B]

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Sure looked like it was aimed at me. :cry:

Help files - who reads them anyway?

Help files sell software - but if a user has access to a help-desk or help-line, they are asking for help there - never going to read the help doc. It's smoke-and-mirrors - just like fancy colors...

I also have the luxury of having some customers with a large budget and 17 to 19" monitors. We can happily develop for a fixed resolution for them. Matter of fact - with flat-screen monitors, the resolution has to be chosen before they are ordered, as the res only works good at the "manufactured" level.

I also deal with school districts with no $$'s and resolutions from 800x600 to all the way up.

Re-size is not what it's all cracked up to be - if a low-end user touches (accidentally stumbles upon) a re-size control, they are more likely to destroy the useability of the form then to make it fit neatly into a bunch of other forms.

We are still debating whether a control-box on our MDI-child forms is going to be too much for low-end users. We currently have a tab-strip at the bottom of our MDI-parent, to allow the user to easily find the child-form - kind of like a mini-task-bar. We have those child-forms locked for size and position right now...

Ever open 10 excel spreadsheets at once an notice how unnatural moving between them is? Or a bunch of PDF docs in ADOBE.

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Originally posted by jhermiz
I'd say my design looks a helluva lot better than yours :D

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I'd say your design might look nice, but it is pretty confusing, stuffed and having empty space where it isn't required. You could easily decrease the number of required objects to half, maybe even more, without taking out any feature and by doing so make the program a lot easier to use for the end user.

A good design isn't just candy and a lot of pretty controls, it needs to be as simple as possible (to make it easy to use), familiar (your design doesn't follow Microsoft style almost at all) and powerful (fast for the user to do his/her task).

Oh well, in the other hand, you've been giving so rich replies I guess this is just written for nothing...

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Originally posted by Merri
I'd say your design might look nice, but it is pretty confusing, stuffed and having empty space where it isn't required. You could easily decrease the number of required objects to half, maybe even more, without taking out any feature and by doing so make the program a lot easier to use for the end user.

A good design isn't just candy and a lot of pretty controls, it needs to be as simple as possible (to make it easy to use), familiar (your design doesn't follow Microsoft style almost at all) and powerful (fast for the user to do his/her task).

Oh well, in the other hand, you've been giving so rich replies I guess this is just written for nothing...

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Do you even understand the business logic I deal with?
You must be a psychic ?

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Originally posted by Merri
I'd say your design might look nice, but it is pretty confusing, stuffed and having empty space where it isn't required. You could easily decrease the number of required objects to half, maybe even more, without taking out any feature and by doing so make the program a lot easier to use for the end user.

A good design isn't just candy and a lot of pretty controls, it needs to be as simple as possible (to make it easy to use), familiar (your design doesn't follow Microsoft style almost at all) and powerful (fast for the user to do his/her task).

Oh well, in the other hand, you've been giving so rich replies I guess this is just written for nothing...

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stuffed and having empty space ??? :confused: :confused:
can you please make some sense...where do you see stuffed? Where do you see empty space...the client requires a lot of empty space other wise the form would be too jumbled...too me and to end users having some room makes a lot more sense than stuffing it all together...but according to you I belong to both ????

You don't make any sense...who said I was designing a windows OS ? I have the basic layout of cmd buttons "Ok" and "Exit" ... "Save" ... I have resizing for all my forms which takes care of size ... which you were complaining about originally yet couldn't back it up later on when I mentioned that I handled this. You say it's confusing, yet when's the last time you logged into my application? BTW if you did not notice its all step by step..I use tab indexes...so you select sometihng tab over and select something else. What's so hard about that? I also make full use of help context id's but to you help files are nonsense :confused: :confused: :confused: ...

Who said it's all about eye candy? There is a lot of advanced functionality in that form...I just happen to design my forms a lot more cleaner and nicer looking than yours. Look at your form..you're using a frigging list box to set values in a frigging table!!!! That's useless...hideous...You also BOLD all of your text...since when was that the MS standards ? You have no control boxes, help context (no excuse about it being a sample...this is a thread about how to design a form..and that's your design).

And then you say powerful fast for the user? I don't embed SQL like the majority of horrible VB coders. I use stored procedures and again did you login to my application and test for speed? Do you want some numbers to compare? Or is there a specific algorithm I am not using correctly?

Can you also suggest what objects I can get rid of since you know about the business logic. It amazes me that you know how the applicaiton works and you've never seen it. Which combo boxes should I get rid of???:lol:

Come on make valid points..not useless ones.

Anyone else with valid feedback?

If you guys want to argue, please do it offline.

Hello!

So many different views and so many types of designs people use worldwide. But jhermiz (no offense) i did'nt liked your design. It does not looks professional in any way (again please no offense). Its just my view...i mean to say why you are using a dark grey background ?

For example your Menu screen shot has little colour bugs (though they can be fixed) but it will always be a problem from pc to pc. Also in the colour properties thingy you're not using the standard colour picker available using common dialog controls people use those standard dialogs only and they like to use only those as they are familiar with those. If you show them something else they get confused (for eg. what if a newbie who just did a basic window course is trying to use your program ? he will have a hard time figuring out your dialog).

Also szlamany i want a technology in my software that should be called "Keep it simple for even Newbie". Because software is made for us and we're not made for the software. I hope you understand what i am trying to say here. And i must agree that no one uses help files in the first place.

This thread is getting longer for good. I guess. The more people contribute the more standards we see what is being used now a days.

Thanks!

At this point, to keep it short, I just refer to this article: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook...000000057.html and say I made quite a valid point. I agree more or less 100% with the article.

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Originally posted by AvisSoft
Hello!

So many different views and so many types of designs people use worldwide. But jhermiz (no offense) i did'nt liked your design. It does not looks professional in any way (again please no offense). Its just my view...i mean to say why you are using a dark grey background ?

For example your Menu screen shot has little colour bugs (though they can be fixed) but it will always be a problem from pc to pc. Also in the colour properties thingy you're not using the standard colour picker available using common dialog controls people use those standard dialogs only and they like to use only those as they are familiar with those. If you show them something else they get confused (for eg. what if a newbie who just did a basic window course is trying to use your program ? he will have a hard time figuring out your dialog).

Also szlamany i want a technology in my software that should be called "Keep it simple for even Newbie". Because software is made for us and we're not made for the software. I hope you understand what i am trying to say here. And i must agree that no one uses help files in the first place.

This thread is getting longer for good. I guess. The more people contribute the more standards we see what is being used now a days.

Thanks!

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Well my application allows end users to specify themes...I happen to choose that theme cause I like that background. No one is stopping you from using a pink background :bigyello: .

What's not professional about it? You mentioned colors...I responded with I allow for themes in my application. How many other developers actually have taken the time to define a theme inside of their application OUTSIDE of windows ?

If I hear valid points like Marty's I'm willing to make the changes...but if I get something that I can easily backup I usually do :D . I don't mean to be arrogant or cocky...but I've seen too much horrible VB work out there. Then I get people responding but not backing it up..or saying "its not professional" or "i allow my users to resize" all of which I do.

So if you make a suggestion back it up with valid proof. By the way that article is quite old...and I think my design properly follows everything big joel has to offer if not more.

If you read the article you'd see it discussed about programmers who feared UI with no design. Art in other words, I'd say my color scheme, my ability to apply themes, button images..would be considered art. If I compare my forms with Merris (no argument here) I'd say his form has absolutely no creativity or art whatsoever.



:afrog:

Hello!

I must say you're getting angry with our sugggestions on your design. As i mentioned earlier (no offense). When we're talking proffessional then we mean that the

- deisgn should be universal
- should be decent looking (means everyone should say its a good designed app. in working and looks).
- should have no bugs atleast in the design etc.
- should be user friendly.
- it should be quick in loading and should use as less resources as possible.

I hope you understand what i am trying to say here. If you keep on adding stuff like useless flash animations and other stuff you're just making your app. bulky. And when designing a business app. you never need the themes thing. A business app. should be straight to the point with the business customization it requires and not the looks etc.

For eg. Business App. Requires:
- users to add new fields or change what he wants in the reports or designing his own reports etc.

For eg. what Business App. does not Requires:
- ability to change themes etc.

According to me there should be no themes at all.

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally posted by AvisSoft
Hello!

I must say you're getting angry with our sugggestions on your design. As i mentioned earlier (no offense). When we're talking proffessional then we mean that the

- deisgn should be universal
- should be decent looking (means everyone should say its a good designed app. in working and looks).
- should have no bugs atleast in the design etc.
- should be user friendly.
- it should be quick in loading and should use as less resources as possible.

I hope you understand what i am trying to say here. If you keep on adding stuff like useless flash animations and other stuff you're just making your app. bulky. And when designing a business app. you never need the themes thing. A business app. should be straight to the point with the business customization it requires and not the looks etc.

For eg. Business App. Requires:
- users to add new fields or change what he wants in the reports or designing his own reports etc.

For eg. what Business App. does not Requires:
- ability to change themes etc.

According to me there should be no themes at all.

Thanks!

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Nah never angry you're taking it the wrong way.

1) The flash symbol does have a purpose...again you have not used the application so you have to be careful when you assume. If the symbol is clicked it brings up the SPI homepage (http://www.jakrauseinc.com/spi/spi.asp). I did not want nor did the client want a single text hyperlink, the client wanted something attractive so the SPI logo is used with a click event opening up a URL.

2) The design is universal and consistant to THIS application

3) Bugs in the design *** :confused: :confused: .... designs don't have bugs...code has bugs son.

4) All the users have specifically stated to me that the tool is intuitive it guides the end user...but again you have not used it...so it may not look as simple...but it really is...it guides people and requires very little work from the user end.

5) Quick in loading ??? What time did you log into my application and time it????? It is quick...very quick...over VPN, off site, over our portal...on our network .... did you want some sort of access to try it out for yourself ;) . The great thing about it is it does not use barely any resources. It makes connections to a SQL Server only when it needs to make a connection. I have designed it very efficiently because of my experience with SQL Server. I don't use direct SQL statements which many of the users use on this forum. I use stored procedures with very STRICT SQL clauses. You wont find a lick of SQL Statements in the client application and no bound data whatsoever.

You have to understand the needs of a client, which many programmers do not understand. If you don't do what the client expects than you wont be making much money.

BTW not having themes? You mean I have to stick to the colors that YOU think are correct? Who are you to say???? Windows sure lets me change themes...how did they go wrong? The joel article which Merri posted sure states that the functionality should be very similiar to windows...Great add on if you ask me...I rarely see programs which have it that need it. One of the biggest applications SAP allows me to change my themes. So when I use your application you're telling me I'm forced to use YOUR colors and layout ??? Wrong wrong wrong
Anything else :bigyello::D

You are all arguing about something that has no answer!

There is no right and wrong answer to this question.

Why on earth do you have to make an app use as little resources as possible? Errr...Rubbish. What you don't want to do is make your app use too much resources so that it becomes slow and laggy...there is a huge difference.

What's wrong with flash in your app?
Personally I think the annimated logo JHermiz has is pretty nice. If I could do that then I would definately have something like that in my commercial apps.

Personally I wouldn't put themes into my apps, but if I had the codew written, and the user requested it then I might concider it.

BUSINESS LOGIC should NEVER have an affect on the UI. They should be completely independant. If they are not then you have designed your app incorrectly, and will leave yourself more work in the future.

100% of users will never like your app. just the way it is, never gonna happen.

Avis Soft, Business Logic does not mean an app for businesses. It's a term for calculations and events done depending on the data entered in the UI.

Also...design should be universal? What????????? :confused:

Peronally I don't like anybodys app, other than ones I design myself. I design them in a certain way, and I do this because I like it, so, if your app is designed differently then this means I don't do it, and thus I don't like it. Simple :D hahaha, you know what I mean. Everyone has their own preferences when designing forms.

Whoever said help files are rubbish is talking ****.

"Auto Resizing controls" on forms are also ****.

Right, I've had my rant.

You are ALL right, and ALL wrong at the same time.

Woika

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Originally posted by Wokawidget
You are all arguing about something that has no answer!

There is no right and wrong answer to this question.

Why on earth do you have to make an app use as little resources as possible? Errr...Rubbish. What you don't want to do is make your app use too much resources so that it becomes slow and laggy...there is a huge difference.

What's wrong with flash in your app?
Personally I think the annimated logo JHermiz has is pretty nice. If I could do that then I would definately have something like that in my commercial apps.

Personally I wouldn't put themes into my apps, but if I had the codew written, and the user requested it then I might concider it.

BUSINESS LOGIC should NEVER have an affect on the UI. They should be completely independant. If they are not then you have designed your app incorrectly, and will leave yourself more work in the future.

100% of users will never like your app. just the way it is, never gonna happen.

Avis Soft, Business Logic does not mean an app for businesses. It's a term for calculations and events done depending on the data entered in the UI.

Also...design should be universal? What????????? :confused:

Peronally I don't like anybodys app, other than ones I design myself. I design them in a certain way, and I do this because I like it, so, if your app is designed differently then this means I don't do it, and thus I don't like it. Simple :D hahaha, you know what I mean. Everyone has their own preferences when designing forms.

Whoever said help files are rubbish is talking ****.

Resizing controls on forms are also ****.

Right, I've had my rant.

You are ALL right, and ALL wrong at the same time.

Woika

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Morning Badger...

Woof woof and AMEN.

Hello!

By universal design i mean that it should look good on all Windows os. And should look good at all the screen resolution like 800x600 etc.

Anyways i am not going to argue anymore on this. Thanks for all the replies and helps etc. :bigyello:

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally posted by AvisSoft
Hello!

By universal design i mean that it should look good on all Windows os. And should look good at all the screen resolution like 800x600 etc.

Anyways i am not going to argue anymore on this. Thanks for all the replies and helps etc. :bigyello:

Thanks!

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And mine does just that...:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by AvisSoft
By universal design i mean that it should look good on all Windows os. And should look good at all the screen resolution like 800x600 etc.

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Arrr...I see now. Yes, I agree with you on this.

No arguing, just healthy discussions. Well it should be anyways.

Woof

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Originally posted by Wokawidget
Whoever said help files are rubbish is talking ****.

"Auto Resizing controls" on forms are also ****.

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I mentioned these two points - and would like to elaborate so that I'm not misunderstood.

If your business offers a help-line (phone) or help-desk you will get a call before the user looks at the help file. I know this from 25 years experience with users. But help-files are required - the sales folks like to show them to users when pushing your product. From these two points, I surmized that help-files are smoke-and-mirrors - part of the dog-and-pony show that sales folks put on. I never said they were rubbish - just being practical about what purpose they fill. We do have help-files - usually written "too-techy" - and also go out-of-date with the actual app very easily. We've actually employed help-file writters and are very proud of the help-file production we've done.

Resizing is great - but if you believe that 100% of the users you have will be able to resize intelligently, then you are giving them too much credit. Re-sizing columns in grids, sorting on grid columns - all neat little windows tricks, but to be practical - they exceed the ability of most users.

These opinions are based on the fact that my customers are basically clerks - loading health claims - loading invoices - posting payroll for the week. They've done all that on "dumb-terminals" and mainframes for 2 decades and now that we are putting them into PC/VB/SQL they complain about extra keystrokes - mouse-clicking. We are required (since they pay us) to make them happy and happy means least change. We sit here balancing production of a good VB app (that we can sell) to making those paying the development cost happy.

How on earth can a user resize intelligently??? :confused:

Form resizing, column resizing and positioning are dead easy to code, and for a user to use. How can this possibley exceed the capability of a user?
It is hard designing an app where the majority of the users are ****-wits! :(

I think I would pull rank in certain situations. The user/customer is NOT always right, and giving them EVERYTHING they ask for is wrong on soooo many levels.

Although I do understand what you mean as we did a software upgrade from a COBOL based app to a VB6 one. £2 Million we charged...HAHAAHA...suckers :D They whinged about everything from colors, screen layouts, keypresses...just everything. They couldn't make their minds up. God damn kids of the baby boom era back in the 50's!

UI's are very important and nice clean, functional UI can be way better than one packed with "pointless" stuff like Themes, sounds etc.

If I got someone to build me a house and I told them I wanted part of the house made of soap then he would object. He would be right to object. It's possible to build the house out of soap, but very very unpracticle and can have serious implications later on. I take this on board and decide to go with brick...it's not what I wanted, but it does the job 110% Why can't software be like this??? People have this idea that the customer says "jump" and the developers say "how high"...if you do this then you're a ****e developer...in my opinion anyways :)

Sometimes I feel like getting right in their face over design issues and shouting..."LOOK! Are you a ****ing VB developer?!!! NO?! I thought not. RIGHT! Listen to what I am saying!!! FOR ****S SAKE! If I say it's not possible, or it's very bad to do this, then it's not god damn ****ing possible! I don't tell you how to do your job, so don't tell me how to do mine!!! Raooaoaaaaaar, NOW WHERE's MY SOUP!"

But alas, I wouldn't have a job for long :D

WOka (in ranting mode)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Wokawidget
How on earth can a user resize intelligently??? :confused:

Form resizing, column resizing and positioning are dead easy to code, and for a user to use. How can this possibley exceed the capability of a user?
It is hard designing an app where the majority of the users are ****-wits! :(

I think I would pull rank in certain situations. The user/customer is NOT always right, and giving them EVERYTHING they ask for is wrong on soooo many levels.

Although I do understand what you mean as we did a software upgrade from a COBOL based app to a VB6 one. £2 Million we charged...HAHAAHA...suckers :D They whinged about everything from colors, screen layouts, keypresses...just everything. They couldn't make their minds up. God damn kids of the baby boom era back in the 50's!

UI's are very important and nice clean, functional UI can be way better than one packed with "pointless" stuff like Themes, sounds etc.

If I got someone to build me a house and I told them I wanted part of the house made of soap then he would object. He would be right to object. It's possible to build the house out of soap, but very very unpracticle and can have serious implications later on. I take this on board and decide to go with brick...it's not what I wanted, but it does the job 110% Why can't software be like this??? People have this idea that the customer says "jump" and the developers say "how high"...if you do this then you're a ****e developer...in my opinion anyways :)

Sometimes I feel like getting right in their face over design issues and shouting..."LOOK! Are you a ****ing VB developer?!!! NO?! I thought not. RIGHT! Listen to what I am saying!!! FOR ****S SAKE! If I say it's not possible, or it's very bad to do this, then it's not god damn ****ing possible! I don't tell you how to do your job, so don't tell me how to do mine!!! Raooaoaaaaaar, NOW WHERE's MY SOUP!"

But alas, I wouldn't have a job for long :D

WOka (in ranting mode)

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:lol:

Quote:

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Originally posted by szlamany
I mentioned these two points - and would like to elaborate so that I'm not misunderstood.

If your business offers a help-line (phone) or help-desk you will get a call before the user looks at the help file. I know this from 25 years experience with users. But help-files are required - the sales folks like to show them to users when pushing your product. From these two points, I surmized that help-files are smoke-and-mirrors - part of the dog-and-pony show that sales folks put on. I never said they were rubbish - just being practical about what purpose they fill. We do have help-files - usually written "too-techy" - and also go out-of-date with the actual app very easily. We've actually employed help-file writters and are very proud of the help-file production we've done.

Resizing is great - but if you believe that 100% of the users you have will be able to resize intelligently, then you are giving them too much credit. Re-sizing columns in grids, sorting on grid columns - all neat little windows tricks, but to be practical - they exceed the ability of most users.

These opinions are based on the fact that my customers are basically clerks - loading health claims - loading invoices - posting payroll for the week. They've done all that on "dumb-terminals" and mainframes for 2 decades and now that we are putting them into PC/VB/SQL they complain about extra keystrokes - mouse-clicking. We are required (since they pay us) to make them happy and happy means least change. We sit here balancing production of a good VB app (that we can sell) to making those paying the development cost happy.

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Hey I cannot agree more than this...however, case and point is..the end user needs to take the responsibility to learn the tool. You can only make a tool so much foolproof, after that it's time for them to learn how to use the tool. If user's complain than it's probably because they did not read the instructions.

Lets face it .. we all buy appliances or electronic items..and we f*** up and we start bit*****, this is all human nature. But its our own fault for throwing away those damn instructions.

You need help files whether you like it or not..and if you dont have them who are you going to point fingers at when the user complains? At least in my case I can say hey look helps there..use it.

Now, I haven't read the other replies, so this might have been said before but:

I've had a lot of experience designing various applications for a rather wide range of customers. What I've found in almost all cases is that people want something light and sharp. I always use a the standard form color for my forms - which windows is allowed to change ofcourse, but most people where I work don't tend to apply their own color schemes. In addition to that I always use flat controls... and, this might sound silly, but people tend to like it - dark blue borders, a bit like what's in windows XP, but darker, and only 1px wide.

The image is an old thing I had an image of lying around, it doesn't have the blue borders(though I think the final version does, I can't remember), but everything's packed up tight, and I used standard colors to show the difference between results and input numbers(results also being bold), and in the final 3 results at the bottom of the form, I used an extra 1px line to show that's where your attention needs to be at. Like this or not, there's a lot of controls on it, and it looks as it should in 800x600 =).

Just my 2 pixels

jhermiz - I'm curious - how do you get a screen shot into your post.

I do a ctrl/alt/printscrn - which does a "copy" of my current window - but it doesn't allow me to paste it into a "post".

Quote:

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Originally posted by szlamany
jhermiz - I'm curious - how do you get a screen shot into your post.

I do a ctrl/alt/printscrn - which does a "copy" of my current window - but it doesn't allow me to paste it into a "post".

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You cant just paste it into a post.

You need to upload your files to a file server and use the IMG tags.

Also use alt printscreen that will give you just the form (or area you need).

Yeah - I see that IMG button here - but what do you mean by a file server? What kind of file do you put the image into? I'm probably being really stupid right now - but this makes no sense to me.

Quote:

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Originally posted by szlamany
Yeah - I see that IMG button here - but what do you mean by a file server? What kind of file do you put the image into? I'm probably being really stupid right now - but this makes no sense to me.

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You need to host your images somewhere like a server...I host mine on a file server..and I just link to them here.

To make more sense...VBForums is not responsible to hold or paste actual screen shots...that would cost them too much money. What if you had a 1 meg drawing and you wanted to post it :(. I dont think these folks want to pay for that.

What I do is place all my screen shots on a server (can be your own file server, or any free host you find online (free hosts usually suck though)). Once you upload the image or screen shot you simply use the IMG tag like this:

VB Code:

[ I M G ] [url]http://www.myServer.com/images/me.jpg[/url] [ / I M G ]

Make sense ?

Thanks for clearing that up. This stinks though - if the files get deleted, old posts will simply have missing info. I hate when the data gets separated into two locations - bad design ;)

Does everyone know where the image is stored? How secure is this?

Quote:

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Originally posted by szlamany
Thanks for clearing that up. This stinks though - if the files get deleted, old posts will simply have missing info. I hate when the data gets separated into two locations - bad design ;)

Does everyone know where the image is stored? How secure is this?

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What are you talking about ? There is no design to this..this is TCP / IP networking. Images I'm just posting for the forum, this had nothing to do with the actual application.

Does it matter if people know where the image is stored ?? Its an image, this image becomes a hyperlink...to you that hyperlink is a file server...so you cant just go in and delete it. You'd have to have the appropriate rights or a pure connection to www or ftp.

"How secure is it"
Im asking a serious question here...how much web work have you done? Can you hack my site www.web-impulse.com or microsoft's? Can you steal or delete my images on my site?

If you answered no than that answers how secure storage is on those screen shots I took.

You can link directly to them here:

http://www.jakrauseinc.com/jhermiz/1.jpg
http://www.jakrauseinc.com/jhermiz/2.jpg
http://www.jakrauseinc.com/jhermiz/3.jpg
...
etc...

The image tag just alleviates from someone having to go there and look. It is still stored on the server side (my side) not on vbforums. Vbforums just references it :thumb: