That's just about how I feel with 98% of his threads.Quote:
Originally posted by Travis G
I can't even get though this entire thread before I want to find a global ignore button for kasracer.
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That's just about how I feel with 98% of his threads.Quote:
Originally posted by Travis G
I can't even get though this entire thread before I want to find a global ignore button for kasracer.
What caught my attention was that slash for the input tag "/>".
I know I've seen it used when there is no closing tag, perhaps even on the input tag. But this validator (http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/direct.html) didn't like it when your code was pasted between the body tags.
I couldn't find any documentation (today) for when to use "/>", although I've seen it used. Do you have a source for when that is valid syntax?
This (http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#h-17.4) says the end tag is forbidden, but they probably mean "</input>".
It's part of the XHTML standard. And I'm sure it's even valid for HTML 4.01. Could be wrong, though.
I think an SGML parser won't be happy, but browsers just ignore it even if they don't understand XHTML. At least as long as you have a space before the slash (<br /> works in NS4, <br/> doesn't).
I have to add one more thing since it slipped my mind until just now.
for all you non-believers that the select box and other "windowed elements" are not part of the OS then do this:
get a page that has a select box in it or make one. if you forgot here is the code
<select>
<option></option>
</select>
you will not need any values or text as this will be uneffected by this experiment.
so once that is in your page and opened up in your browser, doesn't matter which one (mozilla, IE, firebird, Opera etc...)
now you see a drop down correct? ok now right click on your desktop and go into properties and then appearance. in the second drop down called "item" find one called "Scrollbar"
next make that scrollbar size oh say about 20-30 and then hit apply. now all your scroll bars in "Windows" will be bigger huh? ok then open you browser back up and low and be hold the select box is bigger as well. hmmmm how can that be if the select box is controlled by the Browser. well all be damned, it isn't. cause if it was, then the scrollbar would not grow as the scrollbar on the right hand side of the browser didn't.
I have proven might point. and yes just becasue it says "windowed" I will believe it is from the OS.
case proven....... deny that one ;)
Alright, before I say what I have to say here, let me first say that I really don't know anything about what you guys are talking about. Nor am I picking sides in this matter, because, like I said above, I'm undeducated in the matter.
But, out of curiousity, I just did a test. I put the code that phpman supplied above in a webpage and viewed it. Then I went into Visual Basic and created an application with a ComboBox.
Now, not being very educated in this matter, I am going to assume that the ComboBox in this application is one created by the OS.
I then executed said program and left it, and the webpage, running.
I opened Spy++ and selected the VB ComboBox, and it said it's class name is ThunderComboBox. I then selected the IE ComboBox and it said its class name was Internet Explorer_TridentCmboBx.
Now, I'm not sure what kind of evidence this gives me for anything. I'm not even sure what this means. I just found it interesting.
If anybody can tell me what this information I gathered means, I'd be delighted. Just thought it might prove useful in this conversation.
And, off-subject with my post, I think what you (phpman) said in your last post only proves that IE got the scrollbar from the OS, instead of making its own.
If you can find a way to modify the individual look of the ComboBox in both the system AND the webpage, I think that would prove very informative.
That said, I've used Windows XP a few times, and notice that ComboBoxes in both IE and applications run in the environment have a blue rounded border around them.
This would seem (to me, anyways) to add evidence that the browser gets these controls from the OS, which is contradictory to what I said early. So I'm going to guess that I just don't understand what the class name means.
One last time, I would like to state that I am uneducated in this matter and am just making general conclusions that may be ignorant.
I'm not stating I know the answer to this. Just providing observations I've made, for whatever they may mean. :)
yes it does change the scroll bar or drop down arrow, hence why you can't control the color (IE) or the z-index of that said control. you also can't control some of the color or text in the names in the option tags.
I believe, no facts about this, that in VB it gets them from the vb runtime files. in IE I believe it gets them from a OCX in the OS. now they could be the same file who knows. but I know I have been studying the source code for mozilla and I am not confident or know much about C or C++ but it may also prove it comes from the OS. I found many references to the select tag so I need to find out if it actually calls the tag from the OS.
all this came about because you asked about the file input box, which is also, or was, a "windowed element" like the select tag. so that is why you can't control some of it aspects.
what you found hobo is very informative, thanks
But I can control ALL aspects of the file box. In Internet Explorer. Not in Mozilla, though.
yes because IE is more in tune with the OS. M$ made IE a very big part of windows. but still you can't change the browse button can you? and you can't control the z-index either I don't believe.
For god-bloody-sakes stop calling the damned company "M$". You haven't done anything close to MS, and you use their damned products.
Comboboxes are a mess. VB is a mess. IE is a mess. :)
The class name for the standard user.dll combobox is "COMBOBOX". Every combobox that doesn't use this class name is not a real OS combobox.
The ComboBox ActiveX control that you place in VB (all controls in VB are ActiveX controls) seems not to wrap the OS combobox but rather to imitate it, using a class name of ThunderComboBox. This imitation includes the retrieval of windows color schemes and use of these colors.
And finally, the IE development team has written a very similar control with a class name of Internet Explorer_TridentCmboBx, which retrieves the OS properties too, but can also be styled to a limited extent via stylesheets. But it is NOT the OS-provided combobox.
To get the real OS-created combobox, open VC++, design a dialog, place a combobox on it and press "Test Dialog" (or Ctrl+T).
Comboboxes in Mozilla aren't even separate windows, so you're wasting your time searching for any reference to the OS combobox.
And finally, file boxes aren't a seperate window in either IE or Mozilla, they aren't what you call "windowed controls".
Sas: M$M$M$M$M$M$ :p
All I wanted was to make it wider... :(
I just proved it to you and you still deny it? :confused: you are one sad person then. you have not proven nothing to me and all I have done is proven everything to you. file boxes are also somewhat "windowed controls" as you can't control the z-index of that said element. and there are about 5 of these "windowed controls"Quote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
Comboboxes in Mozilla aren't even separate windows, so you're wasting your time searching for any reference to the OS combobox.
And finally, file boxes aren't a seperate window in either IE or Mozilla, they aren't what you call "windowed controls".
Sas: M$M$M$M$M$M$ :p
you tell me to look into the source code to find it and now you are telling me that I am wasting my time.
sas: I confused at what you mean? I am not bashing Microsoft.
phpman, like I said, I'm not exactly following everything here, but I think they only thing you proved earlier is that the browser uses the system's scroll bars rather than creating their own.
What exactly is a windowed control? Perhaps I could understand all this better if I knew that. :confused:
You only proved that IE uses a separate window for the combobox, which behaves very much like the OS combobox, but which isn't the OS combobox, at least not in an unchanged form. The changed window class name proves that.
As for the file input control, I checked that myself: it is NOT a separate window.
If you want to check it yourself, you need Spy++ or a similar program. You can get it for free by downloading the Windows SDK.
You simply are under the misconception that proving part of your theory (and in fact a part I've never been denying) means that the whole theory is true.
Yes, I gave you one method to check what I'm saying for yourself. Only that now I've found a better way, so you're wasting your time searching the source. And of course you'd be wasting your time searching for the OS combobox as it doesn't appear.Quote:
you tell me to look into the source code to find it and now you are telling me that I am wasting my time.
not just IE, any browser you use. I never once said it was the exact same one but controlled by the OS, not the browser.Quote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
You only proved that IE uses a separate window for the combobox, which behaves very much like the OS combobox, but which isn't the OS combobox, at least not in an unchanged form. The changed window class name proves that.
Hobo, a windowed control "element" is something a browser runs. take a textbox, it is on a plane by itself, a z-axis so to speak. a select box is a windowed element as it sits above all other elements on the page in its own window. and since this happens you can't control the z-axis of it. if you had 2 select boxes you can control the z-axis of each one in relationship to each other or other windowed elements
does that clear some of it up?
Mozilla does NOT, I repeat, NOT, use a separate window for a combobox. That means that it is NOT, I repeat, NOT, controlled by the OS.Quote:
not just IE, any browser you use
And as for controlled by the OS - that is a very vague statement. A control is always controlled by its owner. The owner creates it, destroys it, adds and removes elements and reacts to its messages.
Then the control is controlled by its provider. In case of the OS combobox, this is user32.dll, for the extended combobox it's comdlg32.dll, ThunderCombobox is most likely provided by the VB runtime DLL or some OCX. IE's combobox is provided by some IE DLL. The provider draws the combobox and reacts to mouse/keyboard events. The provider sends notifications to the parent.
And finally the control is somewhat controlled by the OS environment color settings, but ONLY to the extent the provider allows it. If the provider decides not to heed the color settings then the OS can't do anything.
Now let's see. IE's combobox:
Owner: IE
Provider: IE
Settings: OS, IE heeds them as long as not overridden by style.
Really, that doesn't sound like OS-controlled to me.
The z-axis thing is a direct result from the fact that the control is a window.
are you flipping high???? I just proved it works in mozilla too. did you even try it in mozilla? hmm I just did it on linux (mozilla) and guess what, it does the same exact thing windows does, styles the drop down according to the OS. imagine that. also, you cannot control the z-axis on the select box in mozilla as it is a windowed element. try it and show me the code proving me wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by CornedBee
Mozilla does NOT, I repeat, NOT, use a separate window for a combobox. That means that it is NOT, I repeat, NOT, controlled by the OS.
so all browsers must have the same provider because they all do the samething. let the OS control the color and style of the drop down which makes no sense as you say it is not controlled by the OS.Quote:
And finally the control is somewhat controlled by the OS environment color settings, but ONLY to the extent the provider allows it. If the provider decides not to heed the color settings then the OS can't do anything.
you CANNOT syle the drop down arrow on a select box. any styling comes from the OS, come on it is not hard to admit that you are wrong......Quote:
Now let's see. IE's combobox:
Owner: IE
Provider: IE
Settings: OS, IE heeds them as long as not overridden by style.
Really, that doesn't sound like OS-controlled to me.
yes, that is true and the only thing you have said that is the truthQuote:
The z-axis thing is a direct result from the fact that the control is a window.
[b]you have not proven me wrong yet. [b]
First, I'd like to thank you for your quality contributions in this debate. I like the way you convey a feeling of equality to me, how you show me that you value me as an equal and a good debate partner.
Second, let's take a look at your post.
Have you ever written a stand-alone program? Something written in C++ or Pascal or something? There are many ways to reach an effect and the end user is easily deceived.Quote:
I just proved it works in mozilla too. did you even try it in mozilla? hmm I just did it on linux (mozilla) and guess what, it does the same exact thing windows does, styles the drop down according to the OS.
What I am talking about is that there are two nice functions in the WinAPI, called GetSystemMetrics and GetSysColor, which retrieve the settings you can set via the control panel. Just write your control so that it asks for all these values and uses them and, whoosh, it's impossible to distinguish from the native control.
http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/sou...ookAndFeel.cpp
Yet the control is still controlled by you. Don't like the OS's colors? Do something else, it's up to you.
As for the z-axis, I don't know about that, but I don't care either. I don't like z-axis controls anyway. But of course, if the z-axis is the only point that counts in dividing controls into "windowed" and "non-windowed" then it is completly pointless anyway and I don't understand what the fuss is about.
They all query the OS for the style set to use (XP or traditional) and for the colors, but the OS doesn't control them.Quote:
so all browsers must have the same provider because they all do the samething. let the OS control the color and style of the drop down which makes no sense as you say it is not controlled by the OS.
But you CAN, for example, style the background color of the combobox. For the dilemma of styling combined elements see the bugzilla link I gave you.Quote:
you CANNOT syle the drop down arrow on a select box. any styling comes from the OS, come on it is not hard to admit that you are wrong......
Ah, but that somehow contradicts with what you said above, that Mozilla's combobox is z-axis independent too. And Mozilla's combobox is not a window, Spy++ shows this very clearly.Quote:
yes, that is true and the only thing you have said that is the truth
Anyone up for a 5 minute recess? :p
Sure :D