Read my explanations above they are clear enough. :)Quote:
Originally posted by techyspecy
you need a life :D
BTW - mind telling me why not ?
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Read my explanations above they are clear enough. :)Quote:
Originally posted by techyspecy
you need a life :D
BTW - mind telling me why not ?
I wouldn't have asked you if they were clear enough :DQuote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
Read my explanations above they are clear enough. :)
Catholic Religion: You have free will to do how you please, but follow these rules or you will burn in eternal flame in HELL!!!!... buuuuuuut if you do happen to break some of these rules have no fear... simple give us money, weekly at church and from your paycheck (padre needs a new mercedes) and come in and tell us what you did wrong... and you've got yourself a get out of hell free card... oh yeah and we touch little boys where they pee
the church is a MAD MONEY MAKING SCAM
What if I just believe in God without putting a name on him/her? What if I don't define this God, I just accept that he/she exists and live my life by respecting those around me? What if the God I believe in doesn't ask me to fill out an application form?
I'm going to burn in a Christian hell alongside the raping, murdering scum who don't ever consider God aren't I? Do you really believe that the God of Christianity will look at me and let me burn because I don't specifically follow the rules in the Bible? Is that how you view God?
So Jesus said he was God, and therefore he must be. He proved it by doing alot of miracles. I don't follow either line of thought.
If I tell you I'm God, does that mean that I am? If not, why is Jesus different, certainly not because he said that he was, that would be tautological.
If I performed a bunch of miracles, what would that prove? I think it would be a stretch to say that it proved that I was God. I fail to see any logical connection between the actions of Jesus and his divine status.
thats becuase there is not one...Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I fail to see any logical connection between the actions of Jesus and his divine status.
I have no doubt that Jesus existed.. but son of god he was not.... because there is not one.. or at least not in any sense that religion has taught
I'll top you there, I'm not convinced that he existed:D
I can top that: I don't believe in the existence of god. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'll top you there, I'm not convinced that he existed:D
My comment on jesus, however: From all that I've read, Jesus came on earth to spread the word of god, I haven't seen any passage where he claims to be god.
Perhaps, I have overlooked those passages, so J4U can 'show me the way' by pointing out those passages to me.
Well after he got good and loaded after that cool wine trick he was spouting off all kinds of stuff (as we all do in that state) but it was edited out after the 1st edition. I hear you can get it on ebay though...Quote:
Originally posted by mendhak
Perhaps, I have overlooked those passages...
:D
I just visualized that. :D
plsu the bible was written by 4 dudes telling stories about what jesus did... whats to say they were not writing some good stories... i like lord of the rings.. but i dont worship it on sundays :rolleyes:
Here's a little know fact from the bible...just for jesus4u....The bible never says there were "3 wise men" it only says there were 3 gifts.
Speaking of George Carlin..here's a little excerpt from his rant on religion.
Christians converting the indigenious people of other lands.
Christian: "Do you believe in God?"
Person: "No"
Christian shoots him in the head.
Christian: "Do you believe in God?"
Person: "Yes"
Christian: "Do you believe in MY God?"
Person: "No"
Christian shoots him in the head.
According to most christian teachings those who have not a) accepted jesus as their savior and b) been saved (baptized, etc...) will burn in hell, and as for those who practice other religions (Muslims, Buddists, Pagans, etc...) as far as christians are concerned they will burn in hell to, because they are worshipping a false god...Religion was created to give man a sense of understanding and acceptance regarding events that have or will transpire in his life. If an accident happens, it is easier to say "It is gods will", and move on, rather than try to make sense of something that is senseless.
Please don't take this as me taking sides on either side of the religion question, but a while back I read a very amusing book called Only Begotten Daughter by James Morrow. It's the story of a girl born via a second virgin birth - this time to a man (ahh the wonders of future science). That would of course make the girl Jesus' half-sister (the common parent being God). She and Jesus have some interesting discussions :)
I think religeon may be a means of getting people to wear goofy hats.
LOL :D And grow stupid beards :DQuote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I think religeon may be a means of getting people to wear goofy hats.
And blowing **** up.
And killing people.
And touching little boys where they pee.
And impregnating nuns.
And setting fire to themselves.
But hey! religion is all about LOVE!
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
So Jesus said he was God, and therefore he must be. He proved it by doing alot of miracles. I don't follow either line of thought.
If I tell you I'm God, does that mean that I am? If not, why is Jesus different, certainly not because he said that he was, that would be tautological.
If I performed a bunch of miracles, what would that prove? I think it would be a stretch to say that it proved that I was God. I fail to see any logical connection between the actions of Jesus and his divine status.
hmmmmm...let's see. Being whipped to shreds by a Roman scourge, spending apprx. 9 hours suffocating then dying nailed to a Roman Cross. Then, coming out of the tomb alive after 3 days being dead...hmmmmmm, no one ever in history has done that, but wait! Except Jesus Christ. hmmm......maybe He COULD be God?! :rolleyes:
What do you know about other cultures and these types of things associated with them ? How can you say no-one else has done that in history ? What do you know about muslim or hindu culture ? If you don't know anything about them, how could you possibly claim that since he has undergone all that stuff, he's god.Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
hmmmmm...let's see. Being whipped to shreds by a Roman scourge, spending apprx. 9 hours suffocating then dying nailed to a Roman Cross. Then, coming out of the tomb alive after 3 days being dead...hmmmmmm, no one ever in history has done that, but wait! Except Jesus Christ. hmmm......maybe He COULD be God?! :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally posted by techyspecy
What do you know about other cultures and these types of things associated with them ? How can you say no-one else has done that in history ? What do you know about muslim or hindu culture ? If you don't know anything about them, how could you possibly claim that since he has undergone all that stuff, he's god.
I DO know! I have studied plenty of the OTHER major religions of this world and beleive me all of their leaders are STILL dead (example Muhammed) and none of them were foolish enough to even try and claim that; cause they knew they couldn't accomplish it!
and what do you know about hindu culture ?Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
I DO know! I have studied plenty of the OTHER major religions of this world and beleive me all of their leaders are STILL dead (example Muhammed) and none of them were foolish enough to even try and claim that; cause they knew they couldn't accomplish it!
hey knock it off - I don't wanna get into this stupid argument. The guy who think there is only one culture in this world with a god ... I do not know what do you call something like that.
Sorry I bothered you mister. Spare me your cultural rivalry.
I'll write a book whereby the main character, set in the tenth century, is eaten by lions, then comes back to life in one day. Maybe HE could be God? If I write it carefully enough, in a few hundred years, it may be that nobody will be certain whether I was writing about actual events, or just made it all up.
It is true, that if the biblical account of the life of Jesus is correct, then you can't reject the hypothesis that he is god. However, there are a whole lot of ifs in what amounts to a statement of non-proof. By no means do the biblical accounts PROVE anything, they simply do not disprove anything.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I'll write a book whereby the main character, set in the tenth century, is eaten by lions, then comes back to life in one day. Maybe HE could be God? If I write it carefully enough, in a few hundred years, it may be that nobody will be certain whether I was writing about actual events, or just made it all up.
It is true, that if the biblical account of the life of Jesus is correct, then you can't reject the hypothesis that he is god. However, there are a whole lot of ifs in what amounts to a statement of non-proof. By no means do the biblical accounts PROVE anything, they simply do not disprove anything.
Come ON man where have you been?!:eek: Do your historical research and you will discover that the Bible is the most accurate record of human history that we have. OR are you going to do like the rest and copout and just deny it without doing honest research yourself?
I challenge you to open a Bible, find a town or city mentioned in it, better yet a people group or governor , and look it up using outside sources and you will find that what you are looking for is true. This is just one of the many ways you can start validating the Bible. Try doing that with the Mormon Bible etc... NONE of their places even exist!
Take a peek at this site as a starting point.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html
I agree that the old testament is something of a historic tract. However, many of the stories in it cannot be easily reconciled with other accounts. The exodus may or may not have happened according to Egyptian records, and the timing is in doubt. A large part of its historical accuracy depends on the fact that there is not an adequate body of corroborating evidence. As for the new testament, I was not aware that the events depicted were recorded in any other text. This certainly casts doubts on their accuracy, since there were other tracts from that time.
Out here, the Mormons outnumber me by such an overwhelming number that I think I'll say nothing about them. Even their crickets are a caution.
Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I agree that the old testament is something of a historic tract. However, many of the stories in it cannot be easily reconciled with other accounts. The exodus may or may not have happened according to Egyptian records, and the timing is in doubt. A large part of its historical accuracy depends on the fact that there is not an adequate body of corroborating evidence. As for the new testament, I was not aware that the events depicted were recorded in any other text. This certainly casts doubts on their accuracy, since there were other tracts from that time.
Not really it verifies them even further because when you compare there accounts they are all the same. Even from people who were not Christians! Try reading Josephus, a historian of the time of Jesus.
They aren't all the same, the egyptians don't share the accounts of the Exodus. Further, some of the stuff early on has no reference point.
and WHERE are you getting this notion?!Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
They aren't all the same, the egyptians don't share the accounts of the Exodus. Further, some of the stuff early on has no reference point.
I do little else but read. I have read your bible, several times. I realize that it is inconsistent, and contradictory, but it has had an impressive impact on language (not as much as the sea has, but probably a close second). As for the references on Egyptian history, I'm afraid that I have no single reference. I read about new finds, and new translations, which always seek to tie in with other tracts. I can't think of a single instance where any history shows conclusively even which Pharoe was ruling Egypt at the time of the Exodus, though I think it was Ramses II. The events depicted don't seem to correlate.
Then you need to keep researching because all can be verified. As to the inconsistent, and contradictory you refer to; That is the biggest copout in the world.Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I do little else but read. I have read your bible, several times. I realize that it is inconsistent, and contradictory, but it has had an impressive impact on language (not as much as the sea has, but probably a close second). As for the references on Egyptian history, I'm afraid that I have no single reference. I read about new finds, and new translations, which always seek to tie in with other tracts. I can't think of a single instance where any history shows conclusively even which Pharoe was ruling Egypt at the time of the Exodus, though I think it was Ramses II. The events depicted don't seem to correlate.
Check this out!
http://www.christiananswers.net/menu...contradictions
Ever heard of Canon?
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/canon.html
Can you find a non-Christian reference, they have a tendency towards a certain bias.
I read an interesting fundamentalist comic strip back in the late 80's that purported to disprove science. After some kid had asked his teacher a bunch of questions that the teacher couldn't answer, the kid made some speach along the lines of "Therefore, science is flawed. All the answers are in the bible." Of course he was asking about geology, physics, etc.
The problem was that the teacher was an idiot. In the strip, since he couldn't answer those questions, he gave up his belief in science and was fired for teaching creationism. Actually, I don't think the strip went quite that far, but that was the implication. The teacher had to justify his change of lessons before some board. If I remember correctly, the result was uncertain.
However, all of the questions the kid asked were actually either easy to answer or invalid. A knowledgeable person would have shredded that supercilious argument. Not that there was always a simple answer, since there were often several possible answers that even a basic understanding of science would pose. The questions were generally misleading or incomplete, in that they often left so many likely answers that it would be impossible to determine the correct answer without more information. Other questions started with invalid assertions that are commonly held views (e.g. "Since likes repel...." was part of the prelude to one of the questions).
This is my view of fundamentalist christianity. They are not very well informed, and assume that their ignorance is shared by others. Therefore, they take what knowledge they have, assume that it is the total knowledge of mankind, and make arguments based on that knowledge. There is no balance, and distortion is freely employed.
Where is the balanced view? I spent an afternoon in a remote lean-to with a guy who was....crazy. However, he knew the bible backwards and forwards, and spent the afternoon showing me passages that supported various arguments. Since he lacked the understanding of the english language that you and I have, he was free to make connections others might miss. Most of what he said was basically insane, but he did use the argument to make an ironclad argument that God was the Devil. This is a view held by many theologians, but I had never before seen solid biblical proof of that concept.
In summary, a christian propaganda site will not convince me of anything, since I have long since learned not to trust those folks. They have a sad tendency to distort things to convert weak minded folks.
Why not just look at the physical evidence found at the bottom of the Red Sea today? They have found chariot wheels and remains that date back to the supposed time of the Exodus depicted in the Bible that seem to support the story. Very interesting don’t you think that modern science and dating seem to corroborate the crossing of the Red Sea by the Israelites Exodus from Egypt.Quote:
Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
I do little else but read. I have read your bible, several times. I realize that it is inconsistent, and contradictory, but it has had an impressive impact on language (not as much as the sea has, but probably a close second). As for the references on Egyptian history, I'm afraid that I have no single reference. I read about new finds, and new translations, which always seek to tie in with other tracts. I can't think of a single instance where any history shows conclusively even which Pharoe was ruling Egypt at the time of the Exodus, though I think it was Ramses II. The events depicted don't seem to correlate.
X
There are truck tires in the ponds around here, that doesn't prove much of anything. However, this is the first I have heard of chariot wheels in the Red Sea. Where did this come from?
Actually, I don't know that any historian doubts that the jews were enslaved in Egypt, or that they subsequently left. It's the story around Moses that is unclear. Not that this really matters, in events from that far back, nothing is certain. Troy has been located, and it was sacked, but does that mean that Achilles was killed by an arrow in his heel? Did Poseidon actually aid the greeks? Was there a wooden horse? All these things are now no more than rumors. Without corroboration, we can't be certain whether Hera sided with the Greeks or the Trojans.
Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Why not just look at the physical evidence found at the bottom of the Red Sea today? They have found chariot wheels and remains that date back to the supposed time of the Exodus depicted in the Bible that seem to support the story. Very interesting don’t you think that modern science and dating seem to corroborate the crossing of the Red Sea by the Israelites Exodus from Egypt.
X
They may or may not be coral formations, so you can't conclude it to be chariot wheels, simply because they look like it. I believe we've both read the same news article on this?
It's pretty easy to attribute accuracy to some facts, and symbolism to others. For example, if I were to answer your post with "What about the creation of the world in 7 days," you would most likely liken it to symbolism.Quote:
Originally posted by jesus4u
Come ON man where have you been?!:eek: Do your historical research and you will discover that the Bible is the most accurate record of human history that we have. OR are you going to do like the rest and copout and just deny it without doing honest research yourself?
Sure, all the towns and cities mentioned in the Bible do exist, there is no doubt about that, but that still proves nothing. The Torah and Koran also mention towns and cities, and other historical events that may have been true. They are as accurate as the bible, perhaps even more. Should they be believed as well?
In addition, another thing I'd like to point out: The Flood Myth (Noah's ark and all that stuff) exists in almost every culture. And the dates definitely don't match. Some date back to the Sumerian period, and some are in the Biblical era. Contradictions, therefore inaccuracy.
Are you willing to admit that the bible has been rendered inaccurate over the passage of time, provided it was accurate in the first place?
Harry Houdini was able to perform even more 'miraculous' feats. Fakirs in India are able to bring themselves into a state of pseudo-death, during which they can be impaled by swords, knives, whatever, and they can then wake up several days later. Not a drop of blood shed as well. (These are all documented, by the way). Does that make them even greater? Does Houdini replace god now?Quote:
hmmmmm...let's see. Being whipped to shreds by a Roman scourge, spending apprx. 9 hours suffocating then dying nailed to a Roman Cross. Then, coming out of the tomb alive after 3 days being dead...hmmmmmm, no one ever in history has done that, but wait! Except Jesus Christ. hmmm......maybe He COULD be God?!
where did we come from?
what happens when we die?
these are the 2 questions that still have no positive answer... and that is why "god" still exists...
the ancient egyptians, romans, greeks worshiped gods of various things because that was how they could explain why these things happened... the sun, the seasons, etc...
of course we know all that today.. so we know it isn't a god.. but nature... we know why the sun goes away and comes back again.. we know why rivers flow and why they don't we know that the "heavens" are actually other suns far far away... the sky is not the limit it once was...
but since the 2 questions at the top of this thread have yet to be answered... god will still be believed in.. i mean who wants to believe when you are dead you are just dead... it is a much happier ending to think you are going to sit on a fluffy cloud with everyone you ever knew that died... its not true.. but its a nice though
face it J4... it doesn't matter how much of the bible is "historically" correct in terms of people and geography.... it doesn't fly with me that it proves ANYTHING about an existance of god
funny thing that religion :
Suppose there's an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being out there, why would he waste his time with a frail shortlived species marooned on a planet revolving around a sun at the edge of a small galaxy ?
It's far more logical that he had a metaphoric shrug, told himself "hey, they'll die out in a few thousand years anyway so why bother ?" and got on with his business.
Why are only these eternal punishments/rewards reserved to humans ? I'm sure if you were the aforementioned being you know about millions of other similar species out there. Why don't they show up in the "Kingdom" ? Why aren't there some flying, multitentacled silicon based lifeforms from a planet lightyears from earth mentioned in the holy books ?
If a human steals in his life a few times (say 3 to 4 times), he's going to be punished for eternity ? That effectively means that the punishment is far, far worse than the crime since the 80-odd years are only a negligable fraction of eternity anyway.
And why do we bother with life anyway then ? If eternity in his "Kingdom" awaits us, it makes more sense to end life as soon as possible to join Him and reducing the chance that you do something wrong or are tempted. Kind of "repent for the sins of the father, die and join the Lord" strategy. You don't see people lining up for that one right ?
Really funny thing that religion. It got started in desert regions. Must've been the heat :)