Printable View
When Did I get up in arms about that? Any way, I do not consider those animals "Human".Quote:
Originally posted by plenderj
Yet you get up in arms at the slightest idea that Iraq could have executed US soldiers.
Very choosy with your human rights aren't you ?
Here's an article from the Times...
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...385661,00.html
i will quote the relevant sections if you don't have time to read the whole thing.
Mmmmm. Offering the Northern Alliance $20,000 for each Al-Quadia fighter they find.... that's a great idea :rolleyes:Quote:
.....
In the summer of 2001, Khan, 28, was pining for his young Afghan bride, who had gone to Mazar-e-Sharif in northern Afghanistan to show off the couple's new baby to relatives. So Khan set off after them, traveling for a week by hitching rides on buses and trucks that were headed over icy mountain ranges. But soon after he arrived, the war swept him away. After the U.S.-backed Northern Alliance captured Mazar-e-Sharif from the Taliban, his parents heard nothing from him. "We were sure he'd been killed," says Azeem. Khan was a Pashtun, and the Uzbek conquerors of the city hated Pashtuns.
But the Uzbeks didn't shoot Khan. They scored points with their American overlords by turning him over as a suspected al-Qaeda terrorist. "Issa isn't a Taliban or al-Qaeda," says his dad. "He's a doctor who maybe likes to smoke too much hashish and laze around."
Like all detainees, Khan was shorn of his beard, stripped, forced into a bright orange jump suit, clapped into earmuffs so he couldn't hear and black goggles that obscured his eyesight. In chains, he was led onto a plane for the longest, strangest trip of his life — to Guantanamo Bay.
"Don't worry about me," Khan later wrote, trying to cheer up his family. "I'm happy. I've even given up smoking." According to the letter, like all Guantanamo inmates he lives in a 6.8-by-8 feet cell with a copy of the Koran for company. For 30 minutes every week, he is allowed out of this cage to exercise with his feet shackled. He and all other so-called "enemy combatants" were recently moved from Camp X-Ray to the larger Camp Delta several miles away, where the army is building an extra 204 cells for future captives.
Most of Guantanamo's 598 detainees are indeed al-Qaeda terrorists. But, as U.S. authorities are finally conceding, the lovelorn Khan — and perhaps as many as 100 other captives — simply aren't. They were grabbed by mistake in the chaos of battle. As Rumsfeld said last week: "If you don't want them for intelligence, and you don't want them for law enforcement ... then let's be rid of them."
Mixed in with the genuine terrorists are a 16-year old boy, two 90-year old Afghans ("They look 110," remarked one visitor), a Sudanese TV cameraman from the al-Jazeera network, and scores of hapless Pakistani youths who heeded the cry of jihad but found themselves abandoned and robbed on the battlefield by their fleeing Taliban brethren. Others were packed off to Guantanamo because they failed to pay extortion money to Kandahar city's secret police chief — supposedly a U.S. ally — who then denounced them as bin Laden henchmen.
Guantanamo has, in fact, turned out to be a windfall for America's Afghan confederates. According to Pakistani detainees, the U.S. military paid the Northern Alliance $5,000 for each captive who confessed to being a Taliban and $20,000 for each purported al-Qaeda fighter. With that incentive, the prisoners claim the allied commanders grabbed any Pakistani wandering dazed around the battlefield, then extracted confessions by force.
...........
And it is not only the Pakistani government that feels an injustice has been done: Kuwait is demanding the U.S. free 12 of its citizens, whom it claims were relief workers in Afghanistan.
.............
So, to start with, why not realease the 100 or so folk that appear to be totally innocent, and put the rest up for trial and then do something about it.
If you find people who really are terrorists (and I have no doubt that a number of them are), then punish the guilty. I have no problem with that. But it annoys me that the US government bandies terms around like "freeing the people of Iraq" or "freeing the people of Afghanistan" when it suits them, and then holds them like any other two-bit dictatorship.
I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians. Thank god I live in a free country.
Yes I have often found it irritating that most people tend to simplify most arguments down to the point when they don’t even consider most of the facts that surround an issue. Most people just do mindless finger pointing without looking into the facts surrounding an issue to find out why.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
Just to clarify. I for one have never stuck up for Saddam or terrorists. This is part of the problem with the discussions on this site. Many posters have the view that if you are not with us, you are against us, and unwilling to see that there could actually be more than two different points of view. To simplify such complex situations does not allow us to actually discuss them clearly.
I also think there are a lot of people who post here do so in such an inflammatory manner as to elicit a similar response. When you call into question someone's country and patriotism and call them Imperialists and Thugs it tends to create an atmosphere of hostility.
I am always open to debate when its not laced with such language as to inflame and distort the truth. Just stating the facts in a matter is much better then some emotional anti-"whomever" rhetoric when trying to make a point.
X
Agreed! I quite enjoy the discussions here, as many people do have valid points to make from all perspectives.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Yes I have often found it irritating that most people tend to simplify most arguments down to the point when they don’t even consider most of the facts that surround an issue. Most people just do mindless finger pointing without looking into the facts surrounding an issue to find out why.
I also think there are a lot of people who post here do so in such an inflammatory manner as to elicit a similar response. When you call into question someone's country and patriotism and call them Imperialists and Thugs it tends to create an atmosphere of hostility.
I am always open to debate when its not laced with such language as to inflame and distort the truth. Just stating the facts in a matter is much better then some emotional anti-"whomever" rhetoric when trying to make a point.
X
This is actually from Time Magazine.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
Here's an article from the Times...
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...385661,00.html
i will quote the relevant sections if you don't have time to read the whole thing.
Mmmmm. Offering the Northern Alliance $20,000 for each Al-Quadia fighter they find.... that's a great idea :rolleyes:
So, to start with, why not realease the 100 or so folk that appear to be totally innocent, and put the rest up for trial and then do something about it.
If you find people who really are terrorists (and I have no doubt that a number of them are), then punish the guilty. I have no problem with that. But it annoys me that the US government bandies terms around like "freeing the people of Iraq" or "freeing the people of Afghanistan" when it suits them, and then holds them like any other two-bit dictatorship.
I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians. Thank god I live in a free country.
And I’m sure when and if this person is proven to not be linked with any terrorist groups this person will be released. The criminal justice system isn't perfect and sometimes innocent people are held in prison and even executed. Such is the price to be paid for trying to make a safer society for all. I think it is worth the small amount of mistakes made in keeping the other 99.9% of the criminals off the street.
Also this is provided this story is true. Until it is proven its one persons word against another.
X
;) Sorry, mental burp.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
This is actually from Time Magazine.
Aha - But this is the problem. They're not. They're just being held indefintely without trial or legal representation.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
And I’m sure when and if this person is proven to not be linked with any terrorist groups this person will be released.
Very True, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to make it better. Why should we pat ourselves on the back for our high moral standards when the rest of the world see's us as hypocrits.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
The criminal justice system isn't perfect and sometimes innocent people are held in prison and even executed. Such is the price to be paid for trying to make a safer society for all. I think it is worth the small amount of mistakes made in keeping the other 99.9% of the criminals off the street.
Again, very true. I tried to find as reliable a source as I could that wouldn't get shouted down as being "anti-American" by certain members, but there are numerous articles on the web about various people being handed over (usually by the Northern Alliance) just because they want his car etc. It seemed to go along the lines of the NA pick up some guy, march him to the nearest US troops, swear blind that he's Taliban or Al-Quadia, collect their cash reward and go off to find some other happless fool.Quote:
Originally posted by Xanith
Also this is provided this story is true. Until it is proven its one persons word against another.
X
Politicians are what they are. Can't do anything about it until election time regardless. The only people I see dragging my countrys name through the mud are people like you. Funny no one ever heard a peep out of you guys until some lunatics decided to turn Jets into missles and prooved that the US was vunerable to attack. Guess what you are witnessing first hand why it is not wise to tangle with the US. you are learning why the US has been able to remain a free country since it's birth. you are witnessing why there has only been one other attack on Americans on American soil. It is necessary to preserve our way of life. The same way of life that you enjoy. I personally would like to remain free and not have my every move screened. You want the lifestyle but don't have the guts to knock the crap out of any one who tries to take it from you.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
I find it embaressing that a number of the Americans on this site do not hold even the slightest bit of pride in their own country. You seem quite happy for your country's good name to be dragged down into the mud by the actions (or inactions) of your politicians.
Your welcomeQuote:
Thank god I live in a free country.
PS. Yeah here is how fooking safe you are and how much these people love you for being a fair person.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/906318.asp?0cv=CB10
I wonder if it is stamped made in Iraq by chance.:mad:
We do hold ourselves to higher standards. The US population will assure that most of the time. I agree though that sometimes things slip through the cracks.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
Interesting view you have on the world there HellsWraith. Are you saying that we should not hold ourselves to a higher standard than the lowest common denominator of the human race?
So, until everyone in the world stops committing a crime, it's okay for me to go out and commit a crime?
So, until everyone in the world agrees to the Geneva conventions, you don't feel that Western countries should abide by them?
I can see you are obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights. ;)
I will argue that our standards are at the top or pretty close to in the human rights department.
To say that I am obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights is just a cheap shot. I am in the US Air Force and have been for the last nine years. I am willing to do things for this country if asked to that will ensure our safety. I am VERY American, Very Democratic, and Very human rights.
What I am not is a person that will go boo hoo when someone is locked up for fighting against us to protect a terrorist group. These people were not fighting us to defend their country, they knew what they were doing. I don't care if they are 13 or not, they still took up arms against us for the sole reason of hate. Sorry, but I don't want that 13 year old to grow up to be a wacko mini Osama and plan another attack that kills me or my kids.
Maybe I am a little extreme, but I would hold any American to the same standards. If an American truly hated the US and took up arms to fight it, they should be locked away too. We don't need those types of people around.
Just my 2 cents....I never said I am completely right though....
Sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was actually intended as a joke based on all the "you're not with us therefore your anti-American" comments that keep flying around. (Hence the little smiley).Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
To say that I am obviously anti-American/anti-Democracy/anti-Human rights is just a cheap shot. I am in the US Air Force and have been for the last nine years. I am willing to do things for this country if asked to that will ensure our safety. I am VERY American, Very Democratic, and Very human rights.
I would argue with your last bit though. You only seem pro-Human rights if that person is an American citizen.
What would you suggest that Afghani's should have done when their country was attacked. Wouldn't you consider them cowards for not fighting for it. Remember these people are fed news by their governments, they don't have the luxury of world media that we take for granted. So if the government says that the US are invading so that they can eat your babies, you'll believe that (as an Afghani conscript). I doubt if many of them had a clue who Osama Bin Laden was..... besides, what about all the guys being turned in by the Northern Alliance for the cash reward, or so they can steal their property. Hardly a just system.
Re-read what I said, I said if an American shares the same hate for the US as a foreigner, and has proven that that hate can cause unneeded damage to our country, I say screw them also. I have no biases towards our people or any other people. They are all the same to me. If the person hates the US, and plans and prepares for performing terristic acts against this country, screw em. That was what I am saying.Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
Sorry. I didn't mean to insult you, it was actually intended as a joke based on all the "you're not with us therefore your anti-American" comments that keep flying around. (Hence the little smiley).
I would argue with your last bit though. You only seem pro-Human rights if that person is an American citizen.
What would you suggest that Afghani's should have done when their country was attacked. Wouldn't you consider them cowards for not fighting for it. Remember these people are fed news by their governments, they don't have the luxury of world media that we take for granted. So if the government says that the US are invading so that they can eat your babies, you'll believe that (as an Afghani conscript). I doubt if many of them had a clue who Osama Bin Laden was..... besides, what about all the guys being turned in by the Northern Alliance for the cash reward, or so they can steal their property. Hardly a just system.
As far as innocent Afgani's getting caught up in this 'war on terror' thing, sure, it might happen. Just like our justice system puts some people behind bars that didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, we will also make mistakes in a conflict such as the one we are talking about.
Also, common sense would tell me if I was an Afgani citizen that if the US was bombing caves and terrorist camps, maybe it wasn't a war on our country, but a war on the tali-ban and I should stay away. Those people are not as stupid as you make them out to be. I don't care if they are being force fed crap on their TV's or radio's, they have eyes, and they can see what is really happening.
And how prey tell is the average Afghani farmer going to know that the US are just bombing caves and terrorist camps (apart from the fact that this statement is incorrect, how else do you think they took Kabul?) - how is an Afghani to know anything other than his country is being attacked.Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
Also, common sense would tell me if I was an Afgani citizen that if the US was bombing caves and terrorist camps, maybe it wasn't a war on our country, but a war on the tali-ban and I should stay away. Those people are not as stupid as you make them out to be. I don't care if they are being force fed crap on their TV's or radio's, they have eyes, and they can see what is really happening.
Agreed, but that I believe is the whole point of this thread. That a number of innocent people (including children) are being held by the US in Cuba - whilst their initial arrest is fair enough in war, it is the decent thing to do to send those who don't deserve to be there, home. It serves only to generate more hatred in the middle east - and it is something which is easily sorted. Look at the speed John Walker Lindh (or whatever his name was), got his day in court.Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
As far as innocent Afgani's getting caught up in this 'war on terror' thing, sure, it might happen. Just like our justice system puts some people behind bars that didn't actually commit the crime they were accused of, we will also make mistakes in a conflict such as the one we are talking about.
If the tables were reversed, I'm sure a number of people (including myself) would be up in arms about the injustice of it.
I'm a bit dissapointed that some of the members here are prepared to throw justice to the wind and condemn them all as guilty without a fair trial. How can you expect us to take the so called "war on terror" seriously, when it seems so poorly organised, and seems to be having the opposite effect (i.e. stirring up hatred).
What really worries me, is that there was a lesson to be learned in the whole Sept 11th attack (and I'm sure one of the simpletons will mis-quote me and twist those words around to say "You should have learned your lesson on Sept 11th" or some such... :rolleyes: ), and a number of people here seem oblivious to opening their minds to those events, and are compounding the problem.
I've lived through the violence in Ireland. I hate the terrorists on both sides, but in order for the country to move forward and get out of the cycle of tit for tat killing the only way is for one (preferably both) sides to try to break the cycle. Much as it irks/annoys/frustrates me, I have to conceed that both sides do have valid grievences and if the next generation is to have any hope of peace (it will never happen in mine, the hatred runs too deeply) then steps have to be taken to address those grievences and try to find some middle ground.
Now, lets zip around the world to America. Al-Quaida were able to recruit terrorists to attack the US because they could show a number of greivences to their followers and "prove" to them that the US was a threat to their religion/country/way of life. These people didn't just wake up one day and decided to crash the planes, this was planned over months and these people never once swerved from their objective. Face it, they hated the US for some reason. We should be trying to find that reason and correct it. Instead Bush is creating thousands of new reasons daily. It isn't going to take much for some other physco with a greivence to drum up followers against the US in the middle east. We should be acting in an exemplary manner, much as it annoys us, so that we can be recognised as the moral force. Instead, we are projecting ourselves as racists.
Nobody is 100% right. But the greatness lies in accepting that there are slipups and mistakes, not in pointing fingers at others whenever someone brings out your flaws. Please note that this remark is not personally directed at you.Quote:
Originally posted by hellswraith
Just my 2 cents....I never said I am completely right though....
Ex FB (SD, if I am right) you seem to be running out of usernames LOL Also whenever you criticize any US move, you automatically qualify for the pro-Saddam, pro-North Korea, pro-Taliban etc. club, according to a few members here ;)
Funny, a few days back, a member PMed me about an offensive remark I had made about the US politicians, and to show respect to his love for his country, I removed that remark from the said post. He then asked me to clarify a few other statements I had made, and I sent him two PMs explaining what I was saying by those remarks. I haven't heard back from him since. All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.
.
Yip - Admins banned FuttBucker, and now they've changed my "Ex-FuttBucker" to Ex-FB, so I guess some anal retentive took offense at the name without realising that you have to actually have a bit of a crude mind in the first place to switch the letters around.Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Ex FB (SD, if I am right) you seem to be running out of usernames LOL
hmmm.... People who are blinded by rage often miss some simple points... Just thank them for not putting an I at the end ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Ex-FB
Yip - Admins banned FuttBucker, and now they've changed my "Ex-FuttBucker" to Ex-FB, so I guess some anal retentive took offense at the name without realising that you have to actually have a bit of a crude mind in the first place to switch the letters around.
.
BOMB MECCA
BOMB MECCA
How about :Quote:
Originally posted by venerable bede
BOMB MECCA
Bomb New York. Bomb the WTC sites again!
for a change? :mad:
.
Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Bomb New York. Bomb the WTC sites again!
Guess you're following your own advice eh. Don't be one of those finger pointers in the future.Quote:
All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.
If you were any slower, you would be going backwards ... I would like to use that quote from Draco Malfoy for you :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Slow_Learner
Guess you're following your own advice eh. Don't be one of those finger pointers in the future.
VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him ;) But on second thoughts, it's rare for an American to be rational nowadays ;)
.
Vb actually means Mecca Bingo ;) ;) ;)
How do you shout on a text forum???? :confused: :confused: :D :D :D
Using Bomb Mecca in every other post is still offensive. But that probably shows the general attitude of a common American citizen nowadays :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by BodwadUK
Vb actually means Mecca Bingo ;) ;) ;)
How do you shout on a text forum???? :confused: :confused: :D :D :D
To shout on a text forum, you have to use CAPS letters.
.
//VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him
On the other hand, he's not the one whining about namecalling and meanness on the forums - that would be you. And of course it's wrong VB says that, just from him at least it isn't hypocritcal (poke poke)
Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
Funny, a few days back, a member PMed me about an offensive remark I had made about the US politicians, and to show respect to his love for his country, I removed that remark from the said post. He then asked me to clarify a few other statements I had made, and I sent him two PMs explaining what I was saying by those remarks. I haven't heard back from him since. All the while people keep accusing you of name-calling and US-hating, but when you actually put forth a few points, you don't get any answer. I don't remember calling Xenith or anyone else who brought up the J&K issue an anti-Indian. By their standards they should be anti-India by now and I should be calling them names and shouting at them for that.
.
U had called America nothing but a bunch of modern day looters. I PMed you and tall you that it is better to back up your posts with valid points rather than use rhetoric and sarcasm. I never mentioned anything politicians nor asked u to show respect for the love of my country. bull**** with a capital B
And some time back, someone called Indians ungreatful. You immediately pounced on him and demanded an appology (in public)
So honeybee, I hope you realized that you are nothing but a stupid 10-year old brat that can only shout "burn america" to the icecream man when he asks you to pay for the vanilla cone. Why don't you climb up to your roof in your diapers and fly a kite that has "i hate america and its foreign policy" written on it. Probably would catch the attention of the onlookers and you'd finally succeed in your mission in showing what a ****ed up retard you truly are.
Have a good day
edit: comments withdrawnQuote:
Originally posted by honeybee
But that probably shows the general attitude of a common American citizen nowadays :rolleyes:
[/B]
Neither VB or me are American so i would check up your facts before jumping to conclusions. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
I have to agree with Ordinary Guy as well you are beggining to get a wee bit annoying. Try some VALID evidence once in a while and people may not be so hostile :D :D :D :D
looking at those typos... i must have had wee to much beer.. anyway honeybee, dont take my comments personally but do be offended.
*hiccup*
BOMB MECCA - it stinks (not the bigo hall of course)
THERE GOES THE WATER BOMB
SPPPPLLLLOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!!!
:p :p :p :p :p :p
Mecca is all clean now :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
It sounds like a cool place to take a holiday.
Sun, sand, friendly natives. Hell......I might even lose a little weight. Where do I sign up?
Ow OwQuote:
Originally posted by Slow_Learner
//VB is a person who has used the Bomb Mecca message in almost every single post here. I don't see you talking so strongly about him
On the other hand, he's not the one whining about namecalling and meanness on the forums - that would be you. And of course it's wrong VB says that, just from him at least it isn't hypocritcal (poke poke)
Stop poking me.
;)
*Bodwad Kicks VB in Shins
Stop being a naughty boy!!! ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Now Apologise for you statements ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
I apologise.
BOMB MECCA
Have any of you guys read up on the Patriot Act or the new FCC ruling? These things seem to be right up your ally and would be sure to cause a few sparks.
???