Pro-war people, answer me this

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Originally posted by plenderj
September11th didn't happen because anyone had chemical or biological weapons.
I've never seen a terrorist attack using weapons like that.

So how would this war reduce terrorism ?

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I was talking about this and Operation Enduring Freedom. This war is to try and save what's left of a country, and to prevent him on causing terror outside of his country. He has the money, the supplies, and the power to cause mass destruction outside of his country. Like they said earlier. Iraqi citizens were rejoycing when the Marines were tearing down the pictures of Saddam. If you want to hear it, I have an interesting radio call-in from a woman born in Iraq, praising the US for what they are doing.

If Iraq doesn't have WMD then why has the UN passed one resolution after another? I think that everyone in the UN agrees that he HAS broken resolutions or they wouldn't STILL be passing them. The UN has said by passing one resolution after another that they believe he is STILL a problem. The US hasn't been passing all of these resolutions on their own? Obviously other countries feel he has not complied with the agreed upon conditions of his surrender after INVADING Kuwait. The only reason the US is in Iraq now is because after 911 GWB decided it was time to really enforce some of the resolutions that the UN has passed. I have to go with the president this far. If they don't find WMD then I think we are over there for the wrong reason. If those people want to be liberated they can do it the way the US did by revolution. We did also have some help by the French I believe and if asked by Iraq for support in a revolution the way the French supported us then sure help them if the end goal is freedom. The US had a little conflict called the Civil War that lasted for four years. It was a poor south against a much larger north. It dragged on for 4 years because the south had better leadership and committed men even against overwhelming odds. The only reason that the north finally won was because Gens Grant/Sherman understood one thing... sometimes you cannot defeat a well committed enemy even if you have overwhelming odds in your favor until the cost is to great to continue... SCORTCHED EARTH. I don't want to see anyone killed but as far as civilian deaths go it is war and if we are there we should win. Unfortunately I think the only way will be to "win" it will be as Grant & Sherman came to understand by total WAR. I hope for a quick end with as little bloodshed as possible on both sides.

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Originally posted by run_GMoney
Well I'm sure you can name a country that offers greater opportunities for everyone, more so than the US. Can you do that?

Fat ass? 145 pounds, good try though. At least you're not guilty of generalizing all Americans :rollseyes:.

I have no desire to read any book or see any movie by Michael Moore.

You can call me arrogant. It doesn't bother me in the least bit. I keep seeing these "you think you're better" or "you arrogant americans" posts that I had to take it over the top.

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Hey buddy, you ****ing started it :(

For a start I don't know how you could even quantify "opportunities". I would have thought that with the gradual denegration of communism in China that opportunities are flowing out of 1bn peoples asses. It still doesn't make China the "Greatest".

I don't think you're arrogant - I work in possibly the most arrogant industry out there. You're just....misguided.

PS Why won't you read Michael Moore? Have you ever read anything, or do you just judge him from hear-say?

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Originally posted by Gaffer
Hey buddy, you ****ing started it :(

For a start I don't know how you could even quantify "opportunities". I would have thought that with the gradual denegration of communism in China that opportunities are flowing out of 1bn peoples asses. It still doesn't make China the "Greatest".

I don't think you're arrogant - I work in possibly the most arrogant industry out there. You're just....misguided.

PS Why won't you read Michael Moore? Have you ever read anything, or do you just judge him from hear-say?

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he isn't misguided... that is your opinion.. but i guess whoever doesn't agree with you is misguided huh???

we don't agree with you.. you don't agree with us.. and that is just how it is.. we state our opinions.. you state yours.. nothing we say will change your mind.. nothing you say will change ours.. and you can at least agree with me on that point

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Originally posted by Gaffer
Hey buddy, you ****ing started it :(

For a start I don't know how you could even quantify "opportunities". I would have thought that with the gradual denegration of communism in China that opportunities are flowing out of 1bn peoples asses. It still doesn't make China the "Greatest".

I don't think you're arrogant - I work in possibly the most arrogant industry out there. You're just....misguided.

PS Why won't you read Michael Moore? Have you ever read anything, or do you just judge him from hear-say?

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So you say people are flocking to China because the opportunities, standards of living, etc are better than the US? That's what you saying, correct? I'll let you absorb that one without further mention.

Second, I didn't start anything. I stated how I felt about the country that I live in. Your the one that "attacked" me about not being modest. You can disagree with me all you want. Again I don't care. Like it or not, America IS the land of opportunity and that makes us the greatest country IN MY OPINION!!!

Michael Moore annoys me because all he does is ***** about the country he lives in. He's welcome to take up residence elsewhere. But he won't. Do you know why? Hint: It's the basis for our discussion right now.

I'm with kleinma on this one...I'm tired of arguing over moot points...we're not going to change our opinion anymore then the anti-war people would change theirs.

And yes we are the best country on the planet...ask any immigrant who has come here and made a decent life for themselves...This country was founded by people who wanted to escape oppression...people who wanted freedom...and that ideology still exists to this day..."Want a better life? better opportunity? Then go to america." We set the standards that other countries strive to reach...We have made countless contributions to the well being of this planet and the people who inhabit it...We supply aid to hundreds of countries (even ones that hate us) why? because it is the right thing to do...we have a duty as a superpower to set an example to other countries, and to provide assistance to countries that can't do it themselves.

You can say that americans are arrogant or warmongers or whatever you want...we don't care...The simple fact is without our support and aid, most countries and governments would have failed long ago...So say what you want about us...We know the truth...and secretly so do you.

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Originally posted by plenderj
September11th didn't happen because anyone had chemical or biological weapons.
I've never seen a terrorist attack using weapons like that.

So how would this war reduce terrorism ?

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Correct me if I'm wrong but I remember the IRA using sarin gas in a subway in England.

As I have said in another thread, the rebuilding of Iraq will go far in reducing terrorism in the long term and help stabilize the entire region.

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Originally posted by plenderj
Lets say you do indeed take over the entire country.
You cause more civilian casulaties and lose more infantry yourselves.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?
What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?
What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

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1. Trick Question! They will be killed obviously. Once they take up arms they are no longer civilians they are soldiers.

2. Then more people will Die. I think depending on the severity there are a number of different ways to play that one out. Are you talking car bomb or someone dropping 2 tons of anthrax on Washington DC?

3. Then the US is fooked bigtime. I'm not talking foot in mouth fooked either. There was SOLID proof that Iraq had massive stockpiles of Weaponized Anthrax and VX gas . This is not even argued against by UN weapons inspectors. If these stockpiles are not in Iraq then they have either A. Been destroyed or B. sold to the highest bidder. Saddam has already been given ample time to proove they have been destroyed. He has not proven this. That only leaves option B. That is a very scary thought.

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Originally posted by plenderj
Lets say you do indeed take over the entire country.
You cause more civilian casulaties and lose more infantry yourselves.

What then if the Iraqi civilians attack your troops ?
What if you receive more terrorist attacks ?
What if you cannot find any chemical or biological weapons ?

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Oh, and to answer your questions.

1. We are not taking over the country...American has never colonized anything...That's british and french thinking, not ours.
This is an attack on saddam's regime...We will secure the capital, take out the regime, then help them build a government for their people (of the people and for the people) Not a dictatorship for saddam and his cronies.

2. The troops WILL defend themselves. If a civilian picks up a weapon and starts attacking, then he is not a civilian anymore, he is a combatant and will be dealt with as such.

3. This isn't going to stop terrorism, but it will have a solid ground on which to build from. There will always be propaganda spread around about how bad the americans are (which is a funny thing because it isn't just americans that are involved, but anyway) There will always be a Terroist recruiter (pusher) preying on young minds to "Rise up against the imperialistic pigs".

4. I doubt we will find them anytime soon. Once the regime has been defeated, and high ranking officers in saddams regime start babbling to save their own asses...we will find them. Answer me this...If they don't have them...Why did we find 3,000 chemical suits, gas masks and atropine injectors in the hospital where saddams soldiers where hiding?????

Doesn't sound logical to me to carry this stuff if there wasn't a potential threat?

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Originally posted by MasterBlaster
3. Then the US is fooked bigtime. I'm not talking foot in mouth fooked either. There was SOLID proof that Iraq had massive stockpiles of Weaponized Anthrax and VX gas . This is not even argued against by UN weapons inspectors. If these stockpiles are not in Iraq then they have either A. Been destroyed or B. sold to the highest bidder. Saddam has already been given ample time to proove they have been destroyed. He has not proven this. That only leaves option B. That is a very scary thought.

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well the fact that we have found:
1)a "suspected" chemical weapons plant with "suspected" scub missles in it
2)thousands of chemical suits
3)stockpiles of atrophine

it would be safe to say that iraq was stocking up for a time where they would use chemical weapons

those quotes around suspected was pre-emptive towards a response saying it hasen't been proven yet ;)

So we've found an "antique" chemical/biological weapons delivery system. We've found Primitive chemical suits that are useless against Anthrax an VX gas(If you want me to expand I will) and atrophine. Atrophine is useless in an anthrax attack and not very effective in treating VX gas poisining. Basically once the VX hits you you are screwed. Someone who is not infected has to stick you in the heart with the atrophine because you are already a convulsing puss ridden mess by the time you realize you've been hit. In the immortal words of the old Wendy's lady "Where's the Beef?"

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Originally posted by MasterBlaster
So we've found an "antique" chemical/biological weapons delivery system. We've found Primitive chemical suits that are useless against Anthrax an VX gas(If you want me to expand I will) and atrophine. Atrophine is useless in an anthrax attack and not very effective in treating VX gas poisining. Basically once the VX hits you you are screwed. Someone who is not infected has to stick you in the heart with the atrophine because you are already a convulsing puss ridden mess by the time you realize you've been hit. In the immortal words of the old Wendy's lady "Where's the Beef?"

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hey Nick Cage pulled it off ;)

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Originally posted by Gaffer

I don't think you're arrogant - I work in possibly the most arrogant industry out there. You're just....misguided.

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Holy sheit, Gaff is a porn star
[cheesey 70's style guitar lick]
ba boom chicka wahh wahhh
[/cheesey 70's style guitar lick]

Does the existence of any sort of WMD automatically lead to the fact that it will be used?

As someone pointed out in another thread, WMD's are actually defensive weapons, based on the MAD philosophy.

So Saddam having those weapons doens't mean he's a direct threat to the US (that said, he is a threat to the Kurds and Shi'ite population within Iraq, but the Chinese kill more every year, andthe US and others are tripping over themselves to trade with rather than attack them).

Can anyone say "North Korea"? They've also got WMD's (nukes in this case, and probably a good chance of Chem and Bio weapons as well). And they are the one's threatening a pre-emptive strike. Oh, yeah, and they have ICBM's capable of delivery to mainland US... the Iraqis don't.

One thing I've noticed is that nobody is discussing the change in global politics this particular war has bought on. The notion of pre-emptive strikes actually destroys the exisiting political and diplomatic structures that stops the various nations from killing each other. It is now justifiable to attack any country if you think they might one day threaten your national security... that is actually a huge change in focus.

I get the distinct (and rather cynical) impression that the US needed to be seen to be fighting terrorism as an ongoing thing, but for all it's military might, it's really geared toward inter-nation warfare rather than the guerilla warfare that tends to typify terroism. The British have had some experience in this (35 odd years in Northern Ireland and still no outcome). So it attacked a target that it could sort of justify and it could theoretically beat.

- gaffa

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Originally posted by gaffa
Does the existence of any sort of WMD automatically lead to the fact that it will be used?

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The existence of any sort of WMD leads to the fact that SADAAM IS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEM!!!

But it's OK that the US and Britain can?

Why can I smell the faint whiff of hypocracy here?

- gaffa

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Originally posted by MasterBlaster
So we've found an "antique" chemical/biological weapons delivery system. We've found Primitive chemical suits that are useless against Anthrax an VX gas(If you want me to expand I will) and atrophine. Atrophine is useless in an anthrax attack and not very effective in treating VX gas poisining. Basically once the VX hits you you are screwed. Someone who is not infected has to stick you in the heart with the atrophine because you are already a convulsing puss ridden mess by the time you realize you've been hit. In the immortal words of the old Wendy's lady "Where's the Beef?"

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Atrophine is the only antidote I know of for type vx =P

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Originally posted by gaffa
But it's OK that the US and Britain can?

Why can I smell the faint whiff of hypocracy here?

- gaffa

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The only situation in which the US or Britain would ever use them is in a full scale war with another nation that has comparable military strength (China, god forbid).

Saddam has used them against his own people, for not wanting him in power.

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Originally posted by plenderj
Ked. Some of us - both pro and anti-war people have made constructive arguments.
Then you get a few people like Arc who come along name-calling which then turns the thread to crap :rolleyes:

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Rofl. I'm sorry, i didn't mean to turn a thread to "crap"by pointing out your ignorance on certain subjects. I myself have been called a LOT worse on these threads by people who share your point of view, but i guess it's no big deal when they do it:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by gaffa
But it's OK that the US and Britain can?

Why can I smell the faint whiff of hypocracy here?

- gaffa

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Yes it is OK that we have them because we won't use them. Also, perhaps you could show me the UN resolution saying US and Britain is not supposed to have them. If these things are going to exist, I'd rather they be in the hands of a country that is far less likely to use them. Who would you rather be in control of them?

EDIT - Do you think I could have said "them" a couple more times?

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Originally posted by run_GMoney
Yes it is OK that we have them because we won't use them. Also, perhaps you could show me the UN resolution saying US and Britain is not supposed to have them. If these things are going to exist, I'd rather they be in the hands of a country that is far less likely to use them. Who would you rather be in control of them?

EDIT - Do you think I could have said "them" a couple more times?

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C'mon fellas! Have a brain, if not a heart. You can have it because you do not intend to use it? Get real, John Wayne! And since when the US of A wanted UN to work. Remember, the second (ok, the 18th resolution) was drafted as an ultimatum for regime change, not disarmament.

Get on a moral high horse or brutish muscle flexing, its gonna backfire, sooner or later, and we the Anti-War have to die in the undeniable future retaliations, right along with you.

No matter how sharp the blade is, how many BHP the motor has, however accurate the path can be programmed and however distant the remote control is held, no lawn mover can remove the weeds its seeks to remove. It can at best trim it. trim it fine. trim it far more finer than anything else, but still only trim it.

Ok, well I can only assume from your response that you don't feel comfortable with the US having control of WMDs, chemical, and biological weapons. Perhaps you could name an instance, any instance, where we were inaccurate when we used any of the three. Personally I can think of 2 instances when we used a WMD...pretty accurate I'd say. There is no instance, as far as I know, where the US used either chemical or biological weapons; and definitely not on our own people. You've succeeded in showing me absolutely no reason why the US, Britain, etc should not have these weapons. They're going to be made. They're going to exist. I'm far more comfortable knowing that the good guys are controlling them...partner.

The US tested chemical weapons on soldiers. Lots of proof of that.

And you nuked two cities.
Cities. Full of civilians. Where's the logic there ?


You probably wiped out more people in the matter of a few seconds than Saddam has his entire presidency.

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Originally posted by plenderj
The US tested chemical weapons on soldiers. Lots of proof of that.

And you nuked two cities.
Cities. Full of civilians. Where's the logic there ?


You probably wiped out more people in the matter of a few seconds than Saddam has his entire presidency.

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Don't forget we tested nukes with soldiers right in front of the blast radiating them.

Wouldn't want you to forget that fact :)

X

They were in bunkers but you probably didn't hurt them.
The chemical testing however did hurt people.

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Originally posted by plenderj
They were in bunkers but you probably didn't hurt them.
The chemical testing however did hurt people.

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Most were just dug in trenches. They didn’t die right away but did contract cancers later in life. Just one of the mistakes the US government made. I realize my government does make mistakes sometimes but I do believe that generally they try to do the right thing.

X

Ok but we're avoiding the main question at hand: Who should control them if the US is so "careless" and "wreckless" and "inaccurate" and "good looking"????

No-one should have them. They should be outlawed.

Well, that's hard to argue with. I agree, they should be outlawed. I'm not sure how plausible that is, though.

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Originally posted by run_GMoney
Ok but we're avoiding the main question at hand: Who should control them if the US is so "careless" and "wreckless" and "inaccurate" and "good looking"????

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Maybe we should just gather all the WMDs, nukes etc. etc. (in fact ALL firearms and such weapons ;) ) together in Antarctica and set them on fire. That will destroy all those destructive weapons, we shall reduce the population by several millions when these weapons burn and the heat will melt the Antarctica, thereby providing enough drinking water to everybody that's left :D

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Agreed, I'm bringing my M-80's, sparklers, matches...oh and that nuke that's taking up all that space in my basement. Who's with me?

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Originally posted by run_GMoney
Agreed, I'm bringing my M-80's, sparklers, matches...oh and that nuke that's taking up all that space in my basement. Who's with me?

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I shall bring my pocket knife. Its blade is rusted, which makes it some sort of a biological weapon, making its victim catch titanus :D

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Originally posted by honeybee
I shall bring my pocket knife. Its blade is rusted, which makes it some sort of a biological weapon, making its victim catch titanus :D

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!!!TITANUS!!! OMG! What does THIS do???

It sounds HORRIFYING!

Is this some sort of mutated Tetanus? Does something enlarge to gigantic proportions?

OOPS! Sorry:D
I'm just one of those idiots who realized I should google for it.

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Titanus

:p

This is a great thread, but it poses many questions.

Gaffa: What industry do you work in? I can't think of an industry that I would claim to be the most arrogant. Are you a porn star?

Maven: Curse you for your heretical statement about C++'s superiority. Ya know, you C++ people have to stop doing all your stuff half-assed. What's with those SEMI-colons? Are you ashamed of something? You should be using full colons, and nothing less!!

run_GMoney: I'm quite proud of this country as well, but there are many things we have done wrong, and many that we are currently doing wrong. If the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the non-squeaking wheel gets ignored. We are the standard in many things, but not all things. It is the failings that we must be working on. Count your blessings, but don't stop striving to improve.

PlenderJ: I pretty much agree with your views, thanks for being moderate in your responses, and don't respond to Arc, you sound too defensive. I love this country, but I don't love this war, and I didn't vote for this president. There are standard ways of dealing with conflicts with other countries, and I feel this one is unimaginative.

Arc: Lighten up, you aren't helping your case. You make constructive comments on coding, but seem to be mostly personal in this forum. Even if you dislike other's stands, you come across better if you don't deride them personally.

Titanus: This is a disease similar to tetanus, but it is newer, lighter, stronger, and burns very hot in pure oxygen.

If this war was about terrorism, we should be going after the Saudis. Saddam was an American client for a long time. We ignored his use of gas on Iran because we were fearful that he might actually lose that war. Saddam would still be an American client if we still needed clients.

The current administration includes people who were pushing for this war before the administration was elected. Within a week of 9/11, a memo was written asking how to use the attack as a reason to attack Iraq.

If we are worried about terrorism, why aren't we attacking the Saudis? Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, and Osama is, too.

If we are worried about WMD, why aren't we dealing constructively with North Korea? They can be dealt with without bloodshed, they have WMD, and they have a proven track record of a willingness to sell.

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Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker
This is a great thread, but it poses many questions.

Gaffa: What industry do you work in? I can't think of an industry that I would claim to be the most arrogant. Are you a porn star?

Maven: Curse you for your heretical statement about C++'s superiority. Ya know, you C++ people have to stop doing all your stuff half-assed. What's with those SEMI-colons? Are you ashamed of something? You should be using full colons, and nothing less!!

run_GMoney: I'm quite proud of this country as well, but there are many things we have done wrong, and many that we are currently doing wrong. If the squeaky wheel gets the grease, the non-squeaking wheel gets ignored. We are the standard in many things, but not all things. It is the failings that we must be working on. Count your blessings, but don't stop striving to improve.

PlenderJ: I pretty much agree with your views, thanks for being moderate in your responses, and don't respond to Arc, you sound too defensive. I love this country, but I don't love this war, and I didn't vote for this president. There are standard ways of dealing with conflicts with other countries, and I feel this one is unimaginative.

Arc: Lighten up, you aren't helping your case. You make constructive comments on coding, but seem to be mostly personal in this forum. Even if you dislike other's stands, you come across better if you don't deride them personally.

Titanus: This is a disease similar to tetanus, but it is newer, lighter, stronger, and burns very hot in pure oxygen.

If this war was about terrorism, we should be going after the Saudis. Saddam was an American client for a long time. We ignored his use of gas on Iran because we were fearful that he might actually lose that war. Saddam would still be an American client if we still needed clients.

The current administration includes people who were pushing for this war before the administration was elected. Within a week of 9/11, a memo was written asking how to use the attack as a reason to attack Iraq.

If we are worried about terrorism, why aren't we attacking the Saudis? Most of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi, and Osama is, too.

If we are worried about WMD, why aren't we dealing constructively with North Korea? They can be dealt with without bloodshed, they have WMD, and they have a proven track record of a willingness to sell.

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All the good programmers walk around semi-naked ;™. =0)

Whoops, I better put some clothes on to live up to that standard.

Well, I'm a software engineer, but I think you've confused me (gaffa) with Gaffer (who is in fact someone else)....

- gaffa

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Originally posted by Shaggy Hiker

Arc: Lighten up, you aren't helping your case. You make constructive comments on coding, but seem to be mostly personal in this forum. Even if you dislike other's stands, you come across better if you don't deride them personally.

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Umm, excuse me?? I had not even posted to this thread. plenderj is the one who made the personal attack on me! Saying i turn threads into crap by calling names when he's the one calling me names for no reason in a thread i have not even participated in!

So maybe i have called a couple of certain people "ignorant", big freaking deal.. sometimes they make ignorant statements! Personally attacking me in a thread i have not even participated in is, in my opinion, a lot worse offense, but there was not one word said about that..:rolleyes: But i'm not gunna complain, i'm just pointing out a fact. I try not to get tied up in the petty stuff. If i think someone has made an ignorant remark then i say so. I don't do it just to be an ass. And if someone says i'm being ignorant then i respect that and try to see if they are correct.

But as plenderj has admited he puposely plays devils advocate therefore insiting flames and becoming a flame maganet by posting things that are obviously insinsitive and ment to cause controversy. Well if he wants to play that game then he should be prepared to be called a couple names.:D

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Originally posted by NotLKH
!!!TITANUS!!! OMG! What does THIS do???

It sounds HORRIFYING!

Is this some sort of mutated Tetanus? Does something enlarge to gigantic proportions?

OOPS! Sorry:D
I'm just one of those idiots who realized I should google for it.

http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Titanus

:p

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I was actually thinking about all the various curses in HP, and got confused .... :(

Now that you mention it, that gives me a good idea, though :p Creating a virus that will give you a mutated tetanus, whatever that means. Off to visit Mr. Aziz now .....

.

Sorry Gafa, I did mean Gaffer, he's the porn star. Software engineers probably aren't the haughtiest.

Arc: I realize you didn't start in this thread, I was just commenting in general. You two are sniping back and forth, and it isn't very becoming of either of you. Step above it, you have more to offer than that.