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Oh I didn't know that.Quote:
Originally posted by ns-code
Yes, if you trust CNN. All Americans realy did is establish one more base in Europe and rent a pipeline they needed. They also tested some new weapon types on us.
The Albanian para-milit. group KLA was the one doing all the killing. They even killed their own people to show scenes of "Serbian ethinc clensing".
And never forget that Serbia was only thing to stop Otoman (Turkish) Empire from spreding all over Europe.
well said.Quote:
Originally posted by Skitchen8
i was hoping to come in here, do some thread bashing, and leave, but no, everyone has to argue with me about my psychotic immature ass-holeish nature...
I don't take that kinda insult lightly, man, whether in jest or seriousness! If I had all the parts, I would have made a perfect idiot, but alas!Quote:
Originally posted by Skitchen8
you and (dare i say it) HB are the only people with braincells inside their heads (sarcasm)
Don't ever mess with my sense of humour. It's just not there!!
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America does need to stay back and help the people that it fought for, they are very good at military campaigns but not too good at clearing up. It always seems to be the charitys or other countries that stay behind. :( :( :(
I stole it and used it to bung up my drain :D :D :D :DQuote:
HB
Don't ever mess with my sense of humour. It's just not there!!
I can't say I agree they are good at military campains. As I sayd earlyer, when they attacket Yugoslavia they together with other 16 NATO members could do nothing to our army, so they started destroying civilian objects. In 78 days they managed to destroy only 3 or 4 real tanks! In the same time they hit about 200 dumy tanks, about 50 dumy aircraft and we could even full them with a whole dummy airport runways while the real runways were covered with dirt!!! Mean-time our tuff Russian MiGs and domestic Galeb and Orao planes had no problems takeing off of high-ways!Quote:
Originally posted by BodwadUK
America does need to stay back and help the people that it fought for, they are very good at military campaigns but not too good at clearing up. It always seems to be the charitys or other countries that stay behind. :( :( :(
LOL nice one :D :D :D :D :D
It's hard to fight an army that is hiding using civilians as human shields. What are you supposed to do, bomb even more civilians? Good call on the serb's military planners. Why fight when you can just sit on your arse and hide? Freakin Brilliant!(I mean that seriously, not being my usual sarcastic self) The thing I don't understand is, If you are hiding troops in civilian areas, why would you complain after all is said and done that civilian areas were destroyed? Another thig I don't get is, why does the US take all of the blame when damn near the rest of Europe was tossing bombs and rockets also?:confused:Quote:
Originally posted by ns-code
I can't say I agree they are good at military campains. As I sayd earlyer, when they attacket Yugoslavia they together with other 16 NATO members could do nothing to our army, so they started destroying civilian objects. In 78 days they managed to destroy only 3 or 4 real tanks! In the same time they hit about 200 dumy tanks, about 50 dumy aircraft and we could even full them with a whole dummy airport runways while the real runways were covered with dirt!!! Mean-time our tuff Russian MiGs and domestic Galeb and Orao planes had no problems takeing off of high-ways!
Just out of curiosity, How many NATO aircraft did those tuff Russian MIGs shoot down?:confused:
On a little lighter and a little sarcastic note, why doesn't the US simply mind its own business? Once the rest of the world has taken care of itself, US can get out of its shell and rebuild democracies all over :pQuote:
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
It's hard to fight an army that is hiding using civilians as human shields. What are you supposed to do, bomb even more civilians? Good call on the serb's military planners. Why fight when you can just sit on your arse and hide? Freakin Brilliant!(I mean that seriously, not being my usual sarcastic self) The thing I don't understand is, If you are hiding troops in civilian areas, why would you complain after all is said and done that civilian areas were destroyed? Another thig I don't get is, why does the US take all of the blame when damn near the rest of Europe was tossing bombs and rockets also?:confused:
Just out of curiosity, How many NATO aircraft did those tuff Russian MIGs shoot down?:confused:
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Again!:confused:Quote:
Originally posted by honeybee
On a little lighter and a little sarcastic note, why doesn't the US simply mind its own business? Once the rest of the world has taken care of itself, US can get out of its shell and rebuild democracies all over :p
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Quote:
Originally posted by Me
...Another thig I don't get is, why does the US take all of the blame when damn near the rest of Europe was tossing bombs and rockets also?
Of course one can regard the bombing campaign as a breach of international law (and it may very well be one) but shouldn't we be focussing on building it all up again rather than squabbling about who did what ?
Oh and learn a lesson from it ...
And who did tell you that, CNN again? I am not saying that there wasn't any use of civilians as shields, but not nearly proportional to the number of civilian targets hit. The key thing in our defence was not hiding, but constantly being on the moove. As soon as AAA would deploy they would pack up and leve. Other units too. Americans relayed on satelites too much and they take time to change position. Just out of curiosity, how do you hide a tank insede a hospital?Quote:
It's hard to fight an army that is hiding using civilians as human shields.
Not easy to say. They were tuff in means of being capable of doing things F-16 pilots can't even dream of, but not tuff enough to compensate for 10 years of poor maintenance. Our pilots would get a lock on enemy, press the fire button and have their own wing blown off. One other thing is that in 1999 tipical dog fight you would have about 15 F-16 on one MiG-29. You avoid 5 of them, get a lock on the 6th and the 7th blows your six out of the sky. You pool the eject leaver, some sparks appear, but no ejecting. You're deciced.Quote:
Just out of curiosity, How many NATO aircraft did those tuff Russian MIGs shoot down?
In the end of the war the official serbian data was that 78 NATO aircraft (inc. choppers and non-maned planes) were shot down.
NATO admits only two. One F-117 and one F-16. Those are the losses they had to admit becouse planes fell in our teritory.
The truth - probably somewhere in between.
No CNN is full of sheit, I don't watch much television. Comments from people who were there painting targets is where I got that info. If you dont know what painting a target means let me know and I will explain.Quote:
Originally posted by ns-code
And who did tell you that, CNN again? I am not saying that there wasn't any use of civilians as shields, but not nearly proportional to the number of civilian targets hit. The key thing in our defence was not hiding, but constantly being on the moove. As soon as AAA would deploy they would pack up and leve. Other units too. Americans relayed on satelites too much and they take time to change position. Just out of curiosity, how do you hide a tank insede a hospital?
prolly rightQuote:
.....
The truth - probably somewhere in between.
What about my last question. No one ever replys when I ask that one.
US doesn't take the blame, it's just tossed in our general direction. I really wish we would just mind our own business if whatever's going on doesn't affect us, though.
Even S. Korea is protesting action against N. Korea - how about that?!
Really? Mabe I just can't read.:confused: That war was fought by NATO! Not the US alone. Here are quotes from this thread. Any reference to The US should be replaced with NATO as the US was not alone in this one!Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn N
US doesn't take the blame, it's just tossed in our general direction.
Quote:
Skitchen8,
you have every right not to care. It wasn't nice what you sayd, but I forgive you (I forgave, but not forgot USA for destroying my town and my coutry, so why couldn't I forgive you), just next time if you want say something funny use the , that's what its for.
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Theres no doubt that the US tries do good, especially the soldiers...they're the ones who have to live with what they do. But there are numerous problems with their forein policy. They have to do much more to rebuild countries after military campaigns
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Weren't the Americans the ones who stopped that dictator from killing all those Albanians?
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Yes, if you trust CNN. All Americans realy did is establish one more base in Europe and rent a pipeline they needed. They also tested some new weapon types on us.
Quote:
America does need to stay back and help the people that it fought for, they are very good at military campaigns but not too good at clearing up
Quote:
On a little lighter and a little sarcastic note, why doesn't the US simply mind its own business? Once the rest of the world has taken care of itself, US can get out of its shell and rebuild democracies all over
Please feel free to replace the country in bold with NATO at any time! I know that The US was involved, but it really chafes my nutts when none of the other countries involved get a bit of trash talk about their involvment!Quote:
Americans relayed on satelites too much and they take time to change position. Just out of curiosity, how do you hide a tank insede a hospital?
Well, that's what I'm saying. US took part in what happened, but somewhere down the line, NATO began to mean USA to the rest of the world.
Yes, when I say USA I meen NATO, but everyone in NATO does what USA says. But, it is not hard to say from the ground who did what if you just sow it heppen. USAF and RAF were staying above 18 000 ft and was generaly bombing over night. All flights below were given to others. They gave one Spanish guy an F-16 and a list of GPS data for targets. He made his approach low fired the rockets. When he loocked back he sow those were peoples' houses he was hiting. I think he is still in some kind of psihiatryc hospital.
I have some idea. Were those the people putting radio locators on the ground or people behind the big maps in Brusels?Quote:
If you dont know what painting a target means let me know and I will explain.
Oh, and what was your last question?
Quite easy to understand. If there's a war against N Korea, S Korea is going to suffer on many fronts, and they wouldn't have any choice. Stray bombs and missiles will hit S Korea, the N Korean army may invade S Korea and try to create an international hold-up of sorts, border areas in S Korea will suffer because of the war, and in the event the N Korean president decides to resort to some nasty fireworks, S Korea will suffer the most. Not quite difficult to see why they are opposed to a war against N Korea.Quote:
Originally posted by Shawn N
Even S. Korea is protesting action against N. Korea - how about that?!
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War is War is am sorry to say it but if your not a friend you are an enemy.
To paint a target infantry must be on the ground and i trust the UK special forces to do this without targeting civilians but,
1) Yes mistakes were made and i am sorry :( :( :( :( :(
2) Targets were hit when you were told they were civilian!
remember its always about propeganda dont believe what your government says find out from elsewhere, break through the crap from both sides and try and find the truth. and thats for both sides :D :D :D :D :D
Dont ever think any government will tell 100% the truth especially when they will benefit from a lie (international support etc)
As for that war i am glad its over and that your country is slowly beggining to restore itself. No war is always better but to some people its not an option. :( :( :( :(
Are you an enemy if you don't agree with your government's actions and with the actions of a foreign invasion force ?
See, I don't always agree with my government decides but does that mean I have to like and support an invasion which I think is equally wrong ? Does that make me an enemy and a target ?
We regard countries like the US and the UK as those with advanced technologies and a lot of freedom to journalists and a relatively objective, unbiased, balanced, nonpartial account of things happening all around. However, recent experiences and comments prove that post 9/11 all these virtues have diminished. Also unless you are an eye-witness to a particular incident, you cannot trust the others' narration of it because it's all hearsay (going by the principle "don't believe all you read in the papers!"), and being an eye-witness you could only describe the sequence of actions as it unfolded before you. You could NEVER trace the motives behind those actions even if you were an eye-witness. For e.g. I might see a US missile hit an Afghan refugee camp, which can be called a civilian target, but I might not be able to vouch for whether it was a stray missile or a deliberate act. So even being an eye-witness does not give you a correct picture of the state of affairs.Quote:
Originally posted by BodwadUK
remember its always about propeganda dont believe what your government says find out from elsewhere, break through the crap from both sides and try and find the truth. and thats for both sides :D :D :D :D :D
Dont ever think any government will tell 100% the truth especially when they will benefit from a lie (international support etc)
Since you can't trust others and you can't trust yourself, there's no point in trying to find out the truth. Everybody presents his/her own version of the truth and you cannot stamp a particular version as correct because nobody knows what's the complete truth. So why bother yourself with all this pain?
The only alternative remains is to try and match the accounts from two or more sources. If they match, you can trust in those parts which match. But again it only gives you a small portion of the big picture.
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Yes, BodwadUK I know all of that. But I still say there were too many "mistakes".
HB, what are the chances for a guided misile with acuracy of 3 meters to hit a moving train?
You don't drop 500 kg bombs on something you "think" is a tank, but is actually a tractor.
And my next-door was in special police forces in Kosovo. When I asked him about rapeing and stuff he sayd "With KLA on left and right an NATO above me, I didn't even have time for some manual work (if you know what I meen)."
Your government will not be threatened by you so no you are not an enemy. The statement reaches to those who claim to be innocent and yet sit amidst those who are not innocent. E.g If Iraq was guilty of holding nukes and used them on Israel (An Example only). People who sit in Iraq (Civilians) and do not make an effort to remove themselves or prove themselves friendly to you would be considered enemys. The reason is simply this, they are sitting in enemy territory and not showing any signs of frienship so you have to assume they are an enemy because if you dont then it can cause many of your own people to be shot while the civilians stand in the way and pevent any retaliation.
It is becoming increasingly clear that nations are using the weakness of sympathy in their favour. in theory the west will not kill civilians only enemys soldiers and so by placing your soldiers behind a 'Sheild' of civilians you can strike out and cause more damage. The solution to this is to consider all those that are in enemys territory and not showing any signs of friendship to be an enemy as they are supporting the military by being the shield.
Tactics of a human sheild needs to be stopped now or the consiquences of the future can be very grave indeed for the civilian population.
If for example a hospital had nuclear bombs ready for use in its basement, it has now become a military target and could no longer be considered a civilian building no matter how many civilians are in it. The damage of destroying it will be massive and cause chaos in civilian ranks but will eliminate a much larger threat.
e.g We do need to look at the larger picture and that counts for both sides, will a strike on Iraq eliminate the apparent threat or just cause more problems.