Why are young developers doubted due to their age?

I was going to recomend that make some shareware as an option, hey you may want to check out brainbench.com and take some of their free exams, just to see exactly where you stand on their scoring, Most of the languages I know, I at least try to look ahead and see what more there is, for example in C++, I am quite knowledgible in it, well past enough to teach a first year High School class ( hehe ) but I at least know how much more there is to it, I often find myself knowing alot less than there is, while others underneath me think I'm the Guru (they need to get on this site and some others more often)

you can see my brainbench transcript at
http://www.brainbench.com/transcript.jsp?pid=629151

Right now I'm praticing to pass that C++ , and the VB6 exams, in the C++ I lack some of the OOP concepts, the way they have diagrams and what not, in VB6, I lack some of the terminology. I was asking in other forums, where to stregten my understanding of OO Concepts, rather than C++ syntax, and what not.

Also try teaching someone something you know, I used to teach programming at the NC State University (hehe, not as a professor tho, as a teacher to the ACE Computer Camp that was there) and I've tutored people with Qbasic, VB, C++ for the past 2-3 years on IRC, Until you actually start trying to teach someone something you know, you never know how much you yourself knows, teaching is one of the best ways to keep in the game, other than taking on a Job.

I know this is off the beaten path but it seems ok to ask..
What amount of experience would be ok or required to TRY to get a job programming? and what does a beginning programmer do at a his/her first job?..just make tiny little apps that display company logos or what? ..i no am not being to descriptive but i just dont know.... all i personally am interested in right now as far as job wise in programming is something to get my foot in the door so to speak i dont really care what..so can someone give me a good idea of a place to start job wise?? (((VISUAL BASIC PROGRAMMING)))


And About the age thing...i am 20..and i just started 3 months ago programming..and i read posts made by the younger members of vb-world and i admire them for starting so early in life programming it's really cool...

I remember hearing a this somewhere somehow..
"What you cant make up in age, you can make up in dedication"

in other words ..it means..at whatever age you are in whatever you are doing..you can make up the lost time in actually doing it!

And it's true because i been programming in such a small period of time compared to many of you, in my vb class am passing with a A ..hehehe

So it's really about dedication...you can dabble in something all your life and not now squat and then have someone come by whos been doing what youve been doing for a smaller time and be better.

So am gonna take this time to pat myself on the back cause i worked hard enough to get that A in my class hehehe
"Pats self on back"..There


Ok ive said my piece




P.S Have any of you ever said one word over and over again so much that after a while it just dont make sense?
Like this...

Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello Hello hello hell o yello yello ello lelo ello ello
hah after a while of saying a certain word over and over again...it just wont make sense..


Ok then later all.




Private Sub Retard()
Vb Pro 6 sp3&4
End Retard

YES I WOULD LOVE YOU TO TUTOR ME IN C++!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D


Gen-X, damn, the website I am learning SQL at(cant remember the URL right now) didnt mention any of those things :( damn I gots to get me a book.

which is why I need a job, I just spent about $500 on software in the past 2 weeks, my dad bought it for me, but I think he is gonna start to get tired of paying so much for software and books and stuff... :(

I like the idea of shareware, but how would I sell it?
how would I get the money to me?
I am making a business, http://www.dennissoft.com (its got a few errors because geocities + namezero = error) but accepting credit cards cotst at least $25 a month.

I saw some links on here before, I think in the general q & a section.

and for shareware, what would I make?
I mean everything has already been done at least 5 times, and I cant think of anything to make, a little help would be great :)


yeah, I have said a word over and over and over again until it makes no sense. It makes you doubt whether its a real word or not :) like maybe you just imagined it was a word... hehehe....

denniswrenn

the concept of shareware is like you might cripple your program to only do certain features, or have a nag screen, or have a 30 day trial, until they either buy a registration code, or pay you to email or send them a full copy. Or you could just say Send so and so to blah blah (if they'd do it, but if not, oh well) I would keep the price reasonable for the software you create, the more likely some non-pirater will pay for it.

Sophtware

for starters I'd just keep learning, try out brainbench.com, see how good of a score you get, try that as your marking point, it will tell you general fields you can work on too. they are free exams, at least they send you a certificate (which looks a lil nice, not as nice as a MSCE exam cert) if you pass any of them.

Quote:

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Originally posted by kb244
denniswrenn

the concept of shareware is like you might cripple your program to only do certain features, or have a nag screen, or have a 30 day trial, until they either buy a registration code, or pay you to email or send them a full copy. Or you could just say Send so and so to blah blah (if they'd do it, but if not, oh well) I would keep the price reasonable for the software you create, the more likely some non-pirater will pay for it.

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no no, I mean I have no ideas for software to make....

I, like, totally agree with you about the perception of young programmers. (Just joking, I don't really talk like that). I just turned 18 (but look younger) and haven't been able to get a technology-related job despite having the necessary skills. Maybe after I release the software I'm developing, I'll either be able to get a cool job or won't need to have one. :)
Check out my website at http://www.workload2000.com and tell me if it looks professional!

Some Tips

I can't speak for America (probably because I live in Australia) but hopefully the industry isn't too different over there to make what I am about to say completely useless. :)

Education
When a person hasn't had a computer related job under their belt the Employer can only go by what the person has done with his education and how well they scored. This means the person who gets the job is the person with the Computer Science Degree... failing that they go down the list looking for technical degrees (at institutions that cannot make it high enough to qualify for FULL degree status), then further education degrees and finally after exhausting all that will look at things like MSCD or other third-party qualifications.

The thing is that almost ALL of these pieces of paper (including the Comp Sci degree that I have) are worthless!!!! They are no indication whatsoever as to your capabilities but without anything to go by you at least need that piece of paper. I used to watch fellow students get 95% in computer projects.... but they spent 3x the time on them that I did and I got 75%. This means for an additional 20% they required 300% increase in time... In the real world these people have all had troubles and end up working 60+ hours a week just to do what a good programmer can do in half that.

Presentation
The tricky part here is to exude confidence. You need to come across to a potential employer that you are fully equiped and totally able to do whatever you are given. Unfortunately its quite easy to take this a step too far into "arrogance" and unfortunately those who are young are "seen" to make this step all too often. If you can find a comfortable place between confidence and not being arrogant, while giving the impression you are very well grounded then you will have a foot in the door.

You have to remember most people see youth as being rash and compulsive... quick to make decisions or to go off doing things that haven't been thought out... so you need to overcome this with confidence and make sure that while remaining enthusiastic you aren't so much so that they would question your ability to perform well.

Again you can't get passed the age problem... while some people might be more than happy to have you on their programming team, they still have to impress THEIR clients and if they were to tell the Managing Director of a major company who has invested $500,000 in the development of their software to a 13 year old and tell him this person is responsible for his companies investment being spent well I don't think he would be happy.

A tip
Here is a tip you might not have thought of. While you might want to become programmers, not everyone starts in the position they seek... Sometimes you have to work your way up. My first job out of University was doing Network Administration. I started out as the "junior" in the IT department who did all the **** jobs, fixed peoples software problems, installed new machines... did all the completely horrible jobs in computing, carried cable boxes etc, etc.

By the end of that year I was not only the senior person there but had also shown my programming ability by taking opportunities along the way and was developing software that made their business run smoother.

So sometimes getting into the area regardless whether you are doing what you want or not is a good step.


I would suggest you went around to companies and instead of asking them for programming positions, talked about being gophers or cleaners or technical assistants. Then once you are in there you can let your natural skills come through when the opportunity presents itself.

Some very good advice there. (maybe not a cleaner though, there's not many programming opportunities for cleaners ;))

A good friend of mine has just got a job as a network admin/software engineer/systems engineer. He has some good experience in VB from A-Level Computing, and a lot of potential, and he's a nice guy, easy to get along with.

After he got the job and worked there a week or two, they told him that he was selected from over 20 other candidates. They also said that a lot of them were very experienced programmers, with a lot of ability, but they were complete eggheads and the interviewers (now his workmates) felt that my friend would be much more fun to work with. So basically, be yourself and be natural, because the people that interview you will most likely be working with you, and they don't want a complete a**hole.

Qualifications are 'barriers to entry'. They're not what employers are actually looking for, they're looking for aptitude and skills. Qualifications are used, generally, to cut down a large field of applicants to a small group of interviewees, by interviewing those with the highest qualifications where no information on skills is available. This is for the same reason that many jobs will require "a degree or higher in any subject" - the fact that you have attained a qualification at this level shows aptitude. It also shows some breadth of knowledge, experience alone will usually be fairly specialised.

Qualifications are more important in areas where there is hot competition for jobs, but in the IT industry they are far less important because there is a shortage of staff.

I have found that a good way to get the experience that employers want on your CV is to do some work experience. With the current shortage of staff most companies will be happy to have a free IT worker for a while, so long as you can show you won't be draining their resources and distracting other people. This is how I learnt ASP (I don't have a web server to play with and I'm certainly not going to buy ASP myself). If you can't work during office hours, then another way I've heard from someone on this forum, is to go to a company and offer to write them a free application - when you've finished it, you can use them as a reference, and put the project and experience down on your CV. That also shows initiative.

Well for some of you, you could do what I did to get my current programming position, apply to a job, or place on your resume, you seek entry position, some of the smaller companies, love to grab up the younger learning crowd, if they are confident you can keep up with the technology, which is what I did, although I need to work on my business "apeals" such as being corporate-like, my CEO said he is very proud of my work, and can gladly show my work to customers saying that "this is what this guy did..." Most of us beginning into the field of professional carreers (not nessasarily just programming) would be easier to start down into a smaller company, stuff like "entry" level, or "Looking to seek cotinuous learning path..." somehting of that sort, also you dont have the strict ridginess of a larger company. just thought that might seem like an idea for some of you.

I'm only 17, with no proper qualifications, and may still be able to work for a large company in britain. The only reason this is possible is because my dad works there. On my own, I would never have been able to. It seems that they don't mind too much, they just refuse to take your personal word for your abilities.

That's very true, the larger companies tend to be very beaurocratic and inflexible, which can be really annoying. I've worked at some of them, and the amount of administration going on for pointles stuff it just stupid.

My dad works at a big company (they make helicopters in case you're interested) in a software engineering and support department, and he's on this committee about company protocols (something big companies have a lot of), and he says he' surprised they don't have a protocol for wiping your arse ;) The thing is, nobody takes any notice of them because they think it's bloody obvious what they have to do and don't bother checking for protocols, but if they got checked up they'd probably find they were wiping in the wrong direction or something ;)

Anyway, that was a bit OT, but I wouldn't want to work at a big company long-term, I'd rather work for a smaller company. There's much less politics to worry about too, company politics is a pain in the arse. People get this corporate mentality, their sense of humour goes stale, and they become bitter and twisted ;) Well maybe not that bad, but the sense of humour definitely loses something.

Unlike smaller companies it seems, is that larget companies, you are hired, or interviewed most of the time by a non-technical person(or someone who may not actually work int he feild, but has a degree in IT Recruiting or something) in any case, when you goto those interviews, they have qualifications(or what I like to call barriers since they can be overcome) Typically these guys will not know how to judge how much knowlege or skill is absolutly required, so they depend Degrees, or certifications, to give them a general idea what the average employee would need to perform the task. Also in any case Age might even be one of those qualitfications, aside from the technical issue, they will look for maturity, anyone below their mid-20s , in my opinion has at most been looked down on as being imature and not taking anything serious. This is why I recomend finding smaller companies, as they may be easier to get in, and may be easier to prove your skills. Also the enviroment is usually less threating, and for some can help learn what it's like to be in a professional carreer even if you know the professional skills, Any thought on this comment?

Maybe I'm different but I don't understand "permanent" staff mentality :D

Perhaps because I haven't had a permanent job for nearly 6-7 years now.... but there is so much contract work out there and it is paying a hell of a lot more than normal-sit-your-but-down-and-stay-there employment I wouldn't change for the world.

Of course you require more qualitifcations and more notches on your resume than the average worker but once they are there you will never turn back. I keep getting job agencies asking me to work full-time and when I give them the figure they nearly have a heart attack... But why should I cut off my arm to take a lower paying job that will bore the absolute hell out of me in 6 months!?!?

I just don't get them some times.

How easy is it to start in the freelancing/Consultancy bussiness? I'm thinking of going freelance as I'm not really in a situation where I can get a full Time Job (No prober computing quallifications and only 3 or 4 months experience working in a company) I'm working for another company at the Moment "On Contract" although we havn't drawn up a contract and I'm not charging because I just want the experience. How do you go about getting the proper notches to do it for real?

There is a difference between "freelance" and "contractor".

Contractors are those who are highly sort by job agencies (not normal agencies but IT agencies) to fill positions from 3 months up to 1 year. The level of qualifications required is pretty high, the resume must read even HIGHER than that because the client is forking out a sh*tload of money to have someone who can step in and sort it out.

It sometimes is hard to break into (this of course is relating to Australia... Don't know about other places) but once you are in and you have 3-4 contracts under your belt for some serious companies then you have your foot in the door and are almost assured of continuing work for as long as you want it.

I have contracted to the Department of Treasury and Finance, IT Companies, A Statistics company, A courier company (administration), the Department of Defense and now for a Defense Contractor..... Having all that on my resume is the reason I keep getting work :cool:

I have to admit... In the beginning it was painful... people were reluctant to have people who didn't already have contracts under their belt and they were reluctant to pay fair money... it took time, effort and simply biding time until you get the skills and contracts to be able to start commanding what you want.... My resume now reads like a company skill profile (ie collection of all their staff) with a contract list nearly 4 pages long.

Just keep at it and if you are good you will get there :)

I can't get you lot you act like this only happens to young people.

My husband at the ripe old age of 45 was told after he set up the Networking system for a multinational company in Australia that they couldn't pay him for it because he didn't have any qualifications.

So off I went and got the qualifications I completed a three year course in 15 months and was told that they were worth nothing because if I did them that quickly either my lectuter was too easy or I was cheating.

I think age has nothing to do with it in Australia people don't want to pay

I've also heard it takes alot longer for some of the new technology(like new video cards and athlons and what not) to get into australia, maybe they didnt want to pay the shipment either? :}

Your right about that.

By the time it gets here its already outdated.

Where I study they have just upgraded from Windows 95 to 98.

Australia the land of opportunity!!!

And just to add.. Ten years ago I worked once on the team where there were couple of clever guys knowing bilion of languages. And every morning they came in the office and saying "Uhm.. it is a raining today, I think I will write in Borland C" or "Uhm.. I am getting nostalgic about Pascal today" or "uhmm.. I think Microfocus Cobol handles these things so nicely, I will use it for this part" , etc.

Well, obviously we had a bad manager when he did not stop them doing this "language choices" because the end result was the most un-maintainable application that I ever came accross. So yes, these guys were technically briliant, they code fast and they knew many languages, but they had a business accumen equal zero.

It is important to avoid "What is the most technically complicated way that I do it so that I can show others how clever I am" type of coding and, maybe for the reason of wanting to prove themselves, younger guys do it more often than old ones.

Cheers!

I am 13 and have been programming in VB For like 4 years and started QB When I was 8. I have mastered Network Communications, but still am having trouble with DirectX. I signed up on RentACoder and got a job right off. I didn't talk about my age/education. I didn't put : I froze my computer 18 times trying to program in DX. I just don't go for DX Jobs. I put stuff about all the protocols I've mastered/network stuff I can do and post that and go for network jobs. No one asks about my age. No body suspects I am some 13 year old geek. I just program their and it works out... I started of from VBWorld and stuff. I've learned that the yonger you are, the less you can tell people about you because they will look down on your age. My advice is to hide it unless you are older.

:p I have also read that mentions of MSPaint aren't good in yoru resume :p

Ok after reading the first few posts i am slightly confused....


I am 19 took one year after leaving college with a BTEC to get a job and ill give some advice

You should get a years experience before applying for jobs cause people arent interested and you wont even get an interview. Learn other things like HTML, Javascript etc. I found many interviews were aquired by me because i had skills in Visual Basic AND simple web development stuff which older people often dont have and seem easily impressed in it :D

Make lots of advanced programs, i work in DX and although its only direct draw it gives fantastic and impressive code to show at interviews, and many people dont have a clue how to use it especially if their older.

University isnt required but may be helpful, university often doesnt help you develop advanced projects, you touch many things in simple ways, it becomes more of a taster in languages than actual learning!!!!


One important thing is dont give up keep developing and showing off your talents in more ambitios and succesful products

P.s Oh and learn how to spell i think i failed cause i am s**t at it!!:D :D :D :D :D

I'm 127 years of age and I have a nice doggy.

It's simply older people percieving you as a threat to them because you know more in a growing world of technology.

In addition you would also gain the knowledge of real world polotics and the various things they do.

I have had a lot of problems with people in the past not just in IT with the perception that they are older and they know better.

The simple answer is go around them and if you can't then the company isn't worth working for as they have these plonkers holding the company back becasue they don't want to be below anyone else.

Age and maturity are actually not connected. Everyone seems to think so but they aren't.

They are distant cousins. Twice removed. To a Chelsea pensioner's home. Flat A325 and F986 (second floor, white curtains). In fact, they only meet in the dinner hall and exchange gum cleaning tips to each other.

There's also the fact that if you're younger, you simply won't have picked up many years of experience.
For example, I'm 20.

Three years ago I thought I knew everything about VB.
Two years ago I realised I 'now' knew far more, and thought I knew everything.
A year ago the same thing happened.

And now, I've accepted the fact that I know a lot, but I'll never know it all.
I'll always be learning more and more.



Things like version controlling, naming conventions, debugging, generating release & debug versions, dealing with customers...

... its all stuff that you keep learning and learning about.

Please watch Star Trek The Next Generation episodes with
Wesly Crusher in it.

Most people would like to put his head through the navigation console.

It's very similar to that. Not saying it's right, just trying to put it
into perspective.