you can call me dumb, but i got one question here,;
Who the *** wrote the bible and does anybody know his email?
(the last thing was just a joke)
:D Nothing is like it used to be :D
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you can call me dumb, but i got one question here,;
Who the *** wrote the bible and does anybody know his email?
(the last thing was just a joke)
:D Nothing is like it used to be :D
I was checking this out last week, A begat B, B begat C, etc. There is a timeline claim here from the age of Adam to the age of Noah and the flood. If you can trace back to Noah, then the bible says you can trace back to Adam & Eve. My counting seemed off by +/- 1 or 2 years, but I still don't know what the bible is claiming about 7 day creation; although "evening and morning the nth day" sounds like 7, 24 hour days.
The wise man and the fool stand on the street arguing, the passer-by cannot tell the difference.
In a legal case, the burden of proof lies with the accusers. It is the same way with the case against Christ. The burden of proof does not rest with jdavison, it lies with those who say that the bible holds no water, it is your burden to prove that.
In the bible's corner, you have eye witness accounts. You have archealogical evidence.(The once believed non-existant - Sodom and Gamora have been found..."Ironically", they were found to be destroyed by a sudden massive blast of fire. This is archealogical people, not my opinion). Christs miracles are performed today, I see them all the time even if I don't perform them myself. There are many other ways to prove what Christ tought, whether you look in the bible, the Q of Jesus, or if you look at early historians like Josephus, there is plenty of support to say what Jesus and the early church did. These evidences support what the bible has said. By the way, Josephus was not a Christian and never claimed he was, but he mentions the crusifiction and the players involved in it, such as pilot and the sanhedrin.
This will be my only post to this board. I only came to encourage jdavison and the other believers on here not to cast your pearls before swine as the bible says. If people like Gen are sereous about finding out the truth, they can do it via email, because someone who is sereous is willing to go into private discussion to find what they search for. This forum is only proving that Gen can make you mad by attacking your beliefs.
Truthfully, the translations of the Bible that we read, and I mean all of them are flawed...However, the manuscripts that they were translated from are not. So when anyone says that the bible is a document that shows that it is written by the same person, even though historically we know it was writen by many, they mean the manuscripts, not the King James or NIV or NASB or any one of the hundred other translations and paraphrases.
I hope any who are trully seaking will get hold of any of the believers by email and that the sceptics who have no intetion of ever reading the Bible, will just let you drop it.
On that, God Bless,
Zandura
PS: I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or thier seed begging bread....
Psalms
Hold to your believes dude........
Ok having said that, compare the biblical stories to other pre-christian religons and you see a lot of similarities. In the same why that Roman religous thought included Greek and Egyptian ideas. Sort of what Jung called the human archtype.
Is god the christain god...or is he/she the Islam, Jewish, Celtic god also???????
Gen-x
Shut the ***** up Gen-x for god sake! You keep messing up bible and God like they were the same thing! And that's what the mess is all about, you and your bible-god! My proof is based on "God is the creator of universe" definition while my uncle have some additional. I have told you this more than once before.Quote:
Because someone decided to post a topic on the scientific proof of Gods existance, made an absolute mess of it and then claimed it still stood despite all the contradictions it contained.
I think it just simple ignorance, and it's your will to not accept it that is the cause.Quote:
Strive so hard? There isn't a need to strive AT ALL!. Not accepting it is a logical and reaonsable conclusion based on the evidence presented.
Another thing you keep messing with is EVIDENCE and PROOF. They are not the same thing! Even a realist must admit that.Quote:
THAT is the evidence that can be seen... what CANNOT be seen is that there was some omniscient entity directing its writing... THAT cannot be proved.
And Billion different answers comes always when you ask billion irrelevant qwestions.Quote:
Take that to a global level and ask the WORLD about God and you will get a BILLION different answers.
The fact that there's a possibility each of the definition of the words you used doesn't exist or have a meaning or reference in reality provide a unlimitied amount of alternatives: So we cannot consider it trueQuote:
Let me make a point....
Postulation : "If I walk into a wall I will not pass through"
Can anyone refute that? Can anyone provide even the slightest possible alternative? Does there exist even the tiniest possiblity this will NOT happen?
So we consider it true.
And that point is not prooved, and you never will. "Its Symbolic"...It's that funny you think; You don't even know what symbolic actually means, the word is too ambiguous for that. If somone says something in the bible is symbolic, he probably meant that there's underlying point of truth, not that you take it literally.Quote:
"The earth was created in 7 days"
It wasn't... There is a point that PROVES incorrect information. Ah but you say "Its symbolic"... Funny that... the only way you can EVER explain something is to say its symbolic so you can read whatever you want into it.
I HAVE PROVED MY POINT.
All others
If there's something God have to say, i'm not the one stating bible must be the word. I'm saying that everything is
God's word. And I refer to whatever we may comprehend is telling you what God have to say. But I am not either saying Bible is flawed. Just sceptical about it.
Zandura
I'm not sure if Gen-x is willing to do that. He is not even willing to accept the possibility of that there is a God. And yeah, I find it a bit annoying that he attacks their beliefs, but what i find very offensive is that he may attack you and consider you mentally insufficient if you don't accept his arguments.Quote:
This will be my only post to this board. I only came to encourage jdavison and the other believers on here not to cast your pearls before swine as the bible says. If people like Gen are sereous about finding out the truth, they can do it via email, because someone who is sereous is willing to go into private discussion to find what they search for. This forum is only proving that Gen can make you mad by attacking your beliefs.
Zandura, you are right that the burden of proof lies with the accuser. But the accuser in this case is those who claim God exists. By most logic and science we can assume god does not exist, therefore the burden of proof lies with those that try to prove he/she/it does exist.
JDavidson do you really believe the story of Noah's ark to be true?
Either the Hittites or Sumerians also have a flood myth, which is where the idea of Noah came from no doubt. Once again christian codification of pre-existing fables.
jdavison,
'Whenever let was used in the bible, this was a statement of permission,' - does that mean that god gave permission for light to exist but did not create it.
:)
I find that believing that God created the earth (or everything) is a good way of looking at life. Personally, I can't do it. Science is far more beliveable than any ancient book of moral fables.
The bible merely provides a moral framework for people to live by, and for that reason it serves society well. It also serves itself in the way that it teaches its readers to preach to, or ignore, non-believers. In this way it creates people with a mindset which will never renouce their religious upbringing.
As this quote suggests, religious people do generally run a good life - their motivation to 'succeed' in life comes from God. And who defines 'success' in life? God does, through the bible.Quote:
I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or thier seed begging bread....
The bible was written so long ago, that it must push false beliefs. History has taught us that religon is confused (does the sun go round the earth?) and it's just a matter of time before science catchs up and explains completely and comprehensively why God really doesn't exist.
Honestly, think 2000 years in the future what you think civilisation will be like. Do you think they'll beleive in such fairy tales?
The Bible and religion have been losing momentum in society for centuries and it's just a matter of time...
I'd be interested to hear a reply...
Mafro
Maf
I think you are right.
Religion has proved itself to be wrong in the past, and will continue to do so until the very foundations that religion was based on will crumble. It will come in time.
"Hold on!", one might say. "Science has also proven itself wrong in the past." Yes, I will be the first to admit that this is true. But the thing with Science, is that it is eager to accept better, more accurate theroies/laws as they come along. The goal of science is to explain to the world around as accurately as possible. This cannot be done in one shot...it necessarily has to be a learning process. What I do believe is the following:
The body of present and future scientific knowledge will eventually explain everything in our universe.
However, this leaves a pretty big opening for Believers. They will claim that although Science aims to explain what it happening around us, it offers no answers as to WHY these things exist around us. This is the reason they invented religion. To answer the WHY question.
I would counter that Science offers the answer to the WHY question. In explaining the world around us, it necessarily solves the problem of the origination of things, objects, beings. However, to some the answer is not very satisfying.
Q: WHY DOES THE UNIVERSE EXIST, AND WHY ARE WE HERE TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT?
A: FOR NO GREATER MEANING. WE EXIST MERELY AS A STATISTICAL IMPROBABILITY.
People don't like accepting this, because they think there MUST be a greater meaning???? I argue that there is no reason whatsoever to believe this to be the case.
Opinions on these thoughts would be appreciated.
dvst8
I didn't really want to get into the why argument in my last post, purely because it just stems from the meaning of life.
I have to agree with you, dvst8, that there is no real meaning to life - and I believe that the Bible catered for this lack of meaning by creating one, one which the masses could take comfort in and thus run a better life. Myself, I refuse to beleive such nonsense and am capable of comprehending that my life is meaningless with out descending into mass depression, or wasting my life trying to make it 'meaningful'.
On a similar note:
A while ago I read an interview in New Scientist, with Tom Willis, the head of the Creation Science(!) Association in America. Its quite shocking. This guy was brought up Atheist, did Sciences as a kid and is very logical. Here's a few of his fundamentally f**ked up arguments...
He's referring to how every complex system (from 747s to coffee cups) are 'created' - implying an analogy to human life (duh!)Quote:
"Just show me one complex system that formed out of random processes"
Quote:
NS: "Why do you reject the consensus on the age of the Earth?"
TW: "I have researched the methods by which we determined or pretended to determine the age of the Earth. I haven't found one that works. I don't believe that we have developed a method that we can even test. In a grocery store 5 pounds of meat can be compared to a standard 5 pound weight. I've asked many a geologist 'Wheres your standard million year old rock?' They don't have one and can't possibly have."
Quote:
NS: "Do you think that Christians who believe in evolution are evil?"
TW: "I didn't say that."
NS: "I know you didn't say that, I'm asking do you believe that?"
TW: "I believe that Christians or anybody who teaches evolution as science is likely to be causing harm."
Hah! Remember this guy is *head* of the Creation Science Association, can anyone believe this ****?Quote:
NS: "Just for the record, do you believe the Sun goes around the Earth or the Earth goes around the Sun?"
TW: "I'm sure you're readers will love this, but I don't know. Every physicist who's looked at it seriously has realised that we don't know for sure."
Mafro
Zandura states the the burden of proof lies with the non-believer. This is not true. The burden of proof depends on who is posing the question.
So, as an agnostic, who doesn't believe in the bible, prove to me that the bible is in fact the communication of an omniscient being.
btw,
yep, there is no meaning whatsoever to existance, the whole 'there must be more than this' is just an ego trip.
:)
Right on, Frank!! :D
Kedaman
Long time on speak. How's life treating you?
Now we have the pleasantries out of the way lets get down to business
Now then let us discuss this statement, and its implications. For arguments sake lets us say that the universe has always existed. Not in it's current form (ie 4d space time), but just in general. Now let us say that we define the creation of the universe as the making of our 4d universe. Now there is a lot of evidence around for the Big Bang theory, so let us assume this is what happened. Your God is now actually the Big Bang. Explain that one away.Quote:
My proof is based on "God is the creator of universe" definition
This is just plain ludicrous now. You can't invalidate someone's argument by saying that the words they are using might not exist. By that definition your argument to disprove Gen-X's argument is false. Which means that he can use the words, because your argument is now invalid, which makes your argument valid again, and so-on and so-forth. I think we may have hit a paradox here.Quote:
Quote:
Let me make a point....
Postulation : "If I walk into a wall I will not pass through"
Can anyone refute that? Can anyone provide even the slightest possible alternative? Does there exist even the tiniest possibility this will NOT happen?
So we consider it true.
The fact that there's a possibility each of the definition of the words you used doesn't exist or have a meaning or reference in reality provide a unlimited amount of alternatives: So we cannot consider it true
So i say Gen-X's argument stands, except, there is a possibility that you would pass through the wall. I know you both know this because we have discussed the uncertainty principle, and the "Tunnelling of Particles" principle before. The fact that the time it would take for this impossibly small chance to happen is longer than the estimated life span for the universe makes his statement True.
Frank & Mafro
Life has no meaning??
I don't believe you two! I almost wish you would start believing in God, just so you will accept there is meaning to life.
Don't get me wrong however, I'm not saying there is some great purpose, and that we are part of a bigger plan, i am talking about Individual Life Meanings.
Surely you must be able to accept that. Or do you really have no meaning in life?
Iain
hmmm, You say Big Bang and God is the same thing, not at all:
Big Bang is a phenomenon
God is a concept, the source to the phenomenon
ludicrous yes, in everyday life; We are discussing the source of truth, which to you is just a projection. To us, it is important to handle a matter of truth at this level without any leaks at all, assuming the definition holds in reality. Take the discussion of math as an example.Quote:
This is just plain ludicrous now. You can't invalidate someone's argument by saying that the words they are using might not exist. By that definition your argument to disprove Gen-X's argument is false. Which means that he can use the words, because your argument is now invalid, which makes your argument valid again, and so-on and so-forth. I think we may have hit a paradox here.
So i say Gen-X's argument stands, except, there is a possibility that you would pass through the wall. I know you both know this because we have discussed the uncertainty principle, and the "Tunnelling of Particles" principle before. The fact that the time it would take for this impossibly small chance to happen is longer than the estimated life span for the universe makes his statement True.
So actually yes, I have the fact on my side this time, I can invalidate anything we cannot absolutely thrust, on the other hand i need to draw a parallell containing it to build up a proof. This time Science is the victim. You tried to create a paradox out of my statement, but you didn't realize we had an assumption at which we based it on.
I hate to explain things over and over again, but I hope you don't just ignore things just because they "sound ludicrous".
Also I think "Individual Life Meanings" Is just plain illusionary thinking. Talk about believing. Even 42 makes more sense.
Zandura
You have to love people that come in, say their piece and then basically tell people that he doesn't respect them enough to even bother listening to their side of things.
What an attitude... and we were even lucky enough to receive a blessing at the end of it.
This is the kind of elitism and egotism that I am talking about... when people think they have a right to do something like this and not even allow what they say to be responded to.
I rest my case. Zandura is the perfect example of everything that is ignorant and WRONG with the world... a lack of respect, a lack of understanding and more importantly a absolute TERROR in wanting to discover the TRUTH unless it makes his world go around.
I have been in private discussion (he says to the empty void that Zandura left in his fearful departure), and all I got were people like yourself who decided to bail whenever things got too close for them... when their faith was rocked, when their beliefs were thrown in doubt... they became angry and left. Not because I would not see truth but because I would point out too many things they could not explain.
Some people claim to see little pink bunnies all over the place but they don't actually believe they are real.Quote:
I see them all the time even if I don't perform them myself
Kedaman
I've lost tollerance for you... get lost
Iain17
I've given up with that moron. *I* prove he is wrong, then *YOU* prove he is wrong but somehow he still manages to think he is right.
He even managed to warp his mind around giving you a completely pathetic answer to the Big Bang being God.
The source of the Big Bang WAS the Big Bang because as was said... "It created the universe".
But he can't see it.... I know I have my views and that I am damn stubbourn and reticent to accept someone elses words without proof... but at the very least my statements aren't becoming as completely off the wall as this
Can anyone say "Dellusional"?
Oh brother. He truely doesn't see it does he?Quote:
Also I think "Individual Life Meanings" Is just plain illusionary thinking
Its like one of those paintings that has an image merged behind it that when you stare at it long enough it comes out.
Everyone else is going "Oh look a boat!" and the people next to them are going "Yes! A boat... I see it!",while this poor sod says "THERE IS NO BOAT!!! IT IS JUST AN ILLUSION! THERE IS NOTHING THERE! YOUR JUST IMAGINING IT"
*shakes his head*...
I think I have found something I do not have an answer for... someone who talks from madness.
Look at Gen-X! Pathetic!
That you believe in God...but not necessarily the Christian version????????
If jdavison wants to believe in his bible thats fine.
Once again WHICH BIBLE are you going on about????
Iain17,
My personal life meaning (what a cliche) is to act as a responsible citizen treating anybody of any creed, or colour, exactly alike and to leave to leave the world a better place for future generation.
There is no space in my life for organised religion as its proponents promote dischord and discrimination regardless of what the religion's ideals are.
If god was responsible for the big bang then as the universe is still expanding is god still big-banging away?
:)
I do believe that there is no greater meaning to life than the evolutionary advance of out species.Quote:
Life has no meaning??
I don't believe you two! I almost wish you would start believing in God, just so you will accept there is meaning to life.
But, Iain, that does not mean that I'm not happy in life!! I live by what you put into life, you get back. I try hard to live by my own moral code, which is based on the christian values since I was brought up in a christian society.
Admittedly though, I'd like to believe in reincarnation, I'd like to think that after this life I'll get another go - a chance to see the state of humanity at some point in the future... But, like God, it's a bit too hard to beleive.
Mafro
Oh and Gen-x? This was a debate. You destroyed any progress you had made as soon as you started disrespecting people. That isn't a mature and intelligent way to conduct an argument.
I found this during my travels... I thought it was interesting reading
Now I am sure the "believers" are going to say I quoted it out of context, or that it is "symbolic" for something else....Quote:
Exodus 20:3 through Exodus 20:7 (NIV)
3-You shall have no other gods before me. 4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
But I would really like to know a few things :
1. I thought God was above jealousy
2. Why should my Son's (and 3 generations) suffer for what *I* choose to do?
3. Yakuza, the Chinese Mafia often punish the children and families of people who do wrong by them... Is God no better than them to use such purely evil tactics?
And Lastly...
4. Father invokes the "thousand generations" law (ie he is good and believes)... Son invokes the "4 generations of punishment" law (he hates God)... So does that cancel out the other 996 generations??? :D
I will be interested in how those who "believe" are able to twist this to make God out to be wonderful and justify the punishment of innocents who are even yet to be born for the mistake of but a single person.
This may not be the right forum for this question, but I don't feel like starting a new thread.... (and the people I want an answer from follow this thread...)
I read an article in July 2000 Equinox by Terrance Dickenson that was pretty interesting. Important points:
- Accurate measurements show that galaxies are actually accelerating apart. There is much evidence to suggest the existence of a mysterious 'repellant' or 'anti-gravity' force which comprises about 70% of the energy in our universe. We don't understand what this new force is at all... It gets stronger as objects get further apart!!!
- New analysis of the Drake equation in a book called Rare Earth show that the original Drake equation missed the boat. The new findings are that the existence of other intelligent civilisations is highly unlikely
I'd like some thoughts on these issues.
Mafro
If you've followed the discussion between Kedaman and Gen-x for a long time, you would realize why Gen-x has lost all patience with him. This extends beyond this thread. The guy refuses to yield to what most people would call common sense. So it's not disrespectful..it's deserving.
All
I think it is significant that we have pretty much unanimously concluded that life has no greater meaning....
dvst8
dvst8
Sorry to disappoint you but have anyone ever said something like "everything isn't always what it looks like" to you? If so, you should think about it. It's ok that Gen-x disrespects me, i won't care, but if he walks around disrespecting religious believers, i think it's offensive.Quote:
If you've followed the discussion between Kedaman and Gen-x for a long time, you would realize why Gen-x has lost all patience with him. This extends beyond this thread. The guy refuses to yield to what most people would call common sense. So it's not disrespectful..it's deserving.
Where did you get that conclusion from?Quote:
I think it is significant that we have pretty much unanimously concluded that life has no greater meaning....
I am probably talking about the Christian Bible, that depends on which discussion where talking about. I have been correcting Gen-x several times on his debate against christians but i don't think that's enough to make me christian in any way (I am officially lutheran but that doesn't mean anything) Yes I believe in God but not necessarily the Christian version. Not any other religion based God either.Quote:
That you believe in God...but not necessarily the Christian version????????
keda
Frank, Mafro, GenX, lain, and myself all seem to agree that there is no greater meaning (hope i'm not presuming too much...) that's why I drew that conclusion. You seem to be the odd one out.
d8
I think someone is misrepresenting what I have said, but since the name was ambiguously abbreviated, I cannot be sure and won't address that.
1) God is jealous. "He" also hates. Deuteronomy 12:31 That's why I encourage you to read the bible again. These statements are obvious.
2) The first thing that came to mind is that there are consequences for sin. If I drink too much alcohol, my liver(body) will be shot, but I (my spirit) may be saved. The body had to deal with the consequences of my actions. It should be obvious that if the Father sins, generations may suffer physically. Wars have this effect.
3) Whose definition of evil and what punishment? See #2.
4) I think the bible is clear that Romans 3:23 - since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. You won't find your hypothetical case.
Did I twist this as you expected? Keep the sincere questions coming.
Another common problem with human minds is drawing stupid conclusions on that if the majority says something is true, then it must be true. Worse dvst8, you draw a conclusion by 3 peoples opinion and ignoring what the rest of the world have to say. It's been a global issue for humanity since who knows when, probably the old greeks was already coming up with better conclusions.
VVB
1. Ok. So we are saying god suffers from human maladies like jealousy and hate... So he isn't PERFECT after all
What a wonderful way of DODGING the question all together.Quote:
2) The first thing that came to mind is that there are consequences for sin. If I drink too much alcohol, my liver(body) will be shot, but I (my spirit) may be saved. The body had to deal with the consequences of my actions. It should be obvious that if the Father sins, generations may suffer physically. Wars have this effect.
So I shall ask again. If I do wrong my children are PUNISHED for what I do...
If you were to steal a loaf of bread would you consider it fair that your Son is then thrown in jail? And that when HIS Son grows up HE will be thrown in jail?
How about you answer the question DIRECTLY instead of twisting it?
3. Evil = Somethinig unfair, unjust, immoral, selfish... etc, etc. You tell me what the punishment is... the quote never qualified what it was... though we have seen Gods "punishment" take the shape of everything from burning cities to the ground to turning people to salt.
4. So you are saying that there will NEVER be a case for 1000 generations to be loved because they are already sinners???? Your not clear at all here
1. I do not believe god is bound by the "christian bible", this is an interpretation by a group of power mongers in the early AD. Based on stories cobbled together from previous civilisations.
2. I do not believe that life has no importance, no one has yet got onto the energy caren't be destroyed only transferred arguement yet.
3. I believe it is the height of arrogance to suggest that Man is the only civilisation in the Universe. Read Carl Sagan, Stephen Hawkins et al to review the arguement on this.
Kedaman,
Gen-X when he/she has disagreed with my opinion, has appeared ready to debate the issue where as yet appear to be pretty much stuck to your opinions.
My definition of an atheist is someone with no invisible means of support.
also no one talks so much more about god than those who insist there is no god.
I didn't notice anyone saying God is/was perfect. If he was I think He would have created a human race that was more tolerant of each other's ideas.
This thread was started with the question 'Why such an effort to prove the bible wrong?' Well that's clearly got the phrase 'prove the bible wrong' in it. I think that means that the subject of the thread is...*Drumroll* proving the bible wrong. That lays the burden of proof with those who are trying to prove that it is wrong.
The Big Bang is an event, not a creator. There is always going to be the argument 'He instigated the Big Bang'.
Unanimous means everyone. Clearly not everyone is of the same opinion in here, I doubt there's a common opinion on anything.
Already sinners: Yes I think that's exactly what he's saying.
dvst8:
How did they come to the conclusion that the galaxies were accelerating? If they have come to this conclusion through greater accuracy than before, I thought the Hubble constant was a very fuzzy number, we haven't measured it very accurately. Am I wrong?
I do agree with Gen-X on one point - what Zandura said came over in quite an arrogant way. Calling those who don't follow your school of thought 'swine' is no way to live. Fine, encourage those who you believe to be speaking the truth, but try to be civil. You will only cause more tension between what seems to be two very distinctly opposed camps.
What'? i haven't given my opinion yet, i've just explained some facts to Gen-x that he didn't understand. In my opinion I think Atheists definate those who don't have a explanation.
Re: #1
We aren't saying "suffer" as if it's a deficiency, you are saying "suffer". Perhaps your definition of perfect differs from the bible's. I don't know how the bible defines "perfect", but apparently you do. Please enlighten me.
I don't think that creation was "very good" (as in Genesis 1:31) or the way God is showing his Glory, but that's because my finite mind doesn't like the way things are playing out. A child loves candy because it is "very good". A parent knows that candy causes cavities. Who defines what is very good? A little advice: That's why you had better find out what your Creator requires of you.
I think "perfect", as you may define it, would require no attribute of God to be discussed because it would be a limited view. Limited is less than perfect, right? In Revelations, it speaks of Angels worshipping God constantly and that is not enough. You are trying to grasp infinity with a finite mind.
Re: #2
Did the bible say that the son is thrown into jail? I think you will see that if the father is thrown into jail, that the son will suffer because he has lost a "bread-winner". No Pun Dude.
I am not trying to "twist" things, but I knew you would say that I did, so I jokingly asked if you liked my twist. I'm trying to provide you answers, although I owe you none.
Re: #3
I'll go one further (although many, if not all Pastors, will disagree with me).
I say God is responsible for it all. But that makes us robots. We don't like that (right, dvst8?). I call it a will, but not a free will (deep thread potential). So from my point of view, I have to trust God. Indulge me for a moment: Others will be judged on the knowledge they have been given. (Can you say that you measure up to your standard?)
I'd probably be God if I knew what the punishment is. I can't answer that one for you today (if ever). Let's say someone does me a wrong, then becomes "saved"; what punishment was there for him? Where is the justice? But I am not the judge. Besides, by my belief, if this person got saved, then Jesus paid for his punishment and imputed His righteousness upon him. You're going to hate the next statement. Thank God this is so, because I have wronged others and I "hope" (that's a faith thing) that I am saved. Although the bible does speak of assurance.
You also misuse evidence and proof. But that's just more carelessness that won't help you in your search.
Re: #4
Yes, that is my hypothesis (on their own works). Did/Can you find such a person to entertain this line of reasoning? By my belief, the only way we would be righteous to deserve this is by Jesus's substitution. Not on our own works.
You're not going to like this one:
Nah, I'll save that for a free will thread.
Jethro
I did bring up the energy isn't destroyed somewhere in these posts. Kedaman was saying that he was "created" and I tried explaining to him that his coming into existance was simply a redistribution of energy form other sources but he failed to understand even that.
The post then went on to explain how the food we eat is given energy from the Sun, and that the animals which eat the plants get their energy from there... we then procreate which passes THAT energy on... A child therefor is not CREATED in a strict sense... it is simply this wonderful chemical structure called DNA that has the ability to convert energy in the form of glucose and glycogen into one of 215 different "cells" that form the human body.
Other than that... I agree with what your saying... religion has always been used by those who want to instill either fear or zealousness to get what they want. After all.. it gave them a righteous reason to slaughter thousands of people during the french inquisition.
kb244
Actually that isn't strictly true.
The topic of religion came up as a result of talking about evolution. It was a "believer" who first piped up saying it was all wrong, none of it was true because "GOD" created everything.
Then people started voicing (rather typing) their opinions and the next thing we had a post called "SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GODS EXISTENCE".
So as you can see... this argument was INSTIGATED by someone who believes there is a God, it was then attempted to be "PROVED" and when that failed we ended up with a this thread from a "believer" who wants to know why the thing he has believed in by faith is coming under such scrutiny.
The only time those who do NOT believe bring it up is when someone who DOES believe is in their face.
PROOF:
Do you ever see athiests standing on a street corner screaming "Listen all you believers.. God does NOT exists... we have seen the light, we know the truth... renounce your belief and be saved"?
ANSWER : NO
HarryW
Nobody had to say God was perfect... thats practically taken for granted in the Bible. After all.. he is just and righteous... he never makes mistakes, everything he does is right... So with all that on his side isn't "jealousy" a bad thing? Jealous means you "covet" something or you "begrudge" someone something... That isn't a nice trait to have... the bible spends half its time slapping the wrists of those who HATE (tells them to have an open heart) and to not "covet thy neighbours possessions" and yet we are now shown verses in the bible that show God isn't so ALL-MIGHTY after all.
Ahhh... now you are starting to see some of the evidence. Don't you think it strange that such a wonderful and all-powerful God would create such a warped and corrupt race?Quote:
If he was I think He would have created a human race that was more tolerant of each other's ideas.
I am sure people will reply saying "MAN corrupted himself... GOD didn't corrupt man"...but if he created us then he gave us ALL of our abilities and our weaknesses... so he in fact GAVE us the corruption to start with.
Perhaps now you can start to understand how the more and more we look at verses in the Bible, when we take them to natural conclusions drawn from common sense we actually see that the very fabric of it begins to fall apart.
That is the whole reason why people have believed in the Bible for so long... They are told to have "FAITH" and not to ask too many questions (or accept the flimsy answers they are given)... which means they never actually read the text in too much depth... and when they find something that they dislike they make it a "symbol", find some NEW meaning that sits well on their palette and carry on their merry way.
And we have done that. We have shown several instances where there are inconsistencies or the bible has reduced it to "symbols" and yet people don't see.Quote:
That lays the burden of proof with those who are trying to prove that it is wrong
Then we get this wonderful "But there is historical reference of events in the Bible happening... so it MUST be true"
So I reply "I write a book that describes a meteor shower TODAY and also in that book it states that Aliens exist... If it is read in 100 years time and they PROVE the meteor shower actually happened, does that mean the REST of the book is true automatically???"... and yet they STILL don't see.
This is the problem Harry. Even when they ARE presented with questions they fail to answer them...
So to the question... why do I bother? Why do I keep responding? Well you see I have this character flaw... I find it hard dealing with people who don't understand something, especially when the evidence is right before their eyes. So I will attempt to explain to them in ways that perhaps they could understand... and it fails, so I try a different way and a different way... at some point it finally gets through and from that point forward they see it with amazing clarity.
However... religious people don't... and despite what I show them and what contradictions are made and what counter points are given to THEIR proof.... they still refuse to see.
There is a condition however... I'm not so egotistical to think that I actually have the right answers (despite what some may assume)... I try to keep asking myself "Is it THEM who sees it wrong or me?"... it keeps a person balanced. if you dont question yourself then you might get off the tracks... And so I reverse the situation, I look from their side, I put myself in their shoes and immediately all these questions arise... questions without answers and it leads me back to the same conclusion.
Do you think these people ever ask themselves if they *might* be wrong? Do you think they ever sit back and say "Mmmm... I wonder if there might NOT be a God"?
That is the difference between an open-minded person and a closed-minded person... NOT the fact of whether they agree or not... but wheather they are capable of looking at something from a different perspective.
To make the point... I can perfectly well look from the point that there IS a God. No qualifications, no ifs, no BUTS... no validations by saying I must be insane ala VVB. There is a "possibility" that he may actually exist.
Try and get that kind of open-mindedness from VVB or jdavision... I bet you will have some qualification or stipulation added to it. I GUARANTEE IT.
Try telling that to Kedaman. Read his post regarding this.Quote:
The Big Bang is an event, not a creator. There is always going to be the argument 'He instigated the Big Bang'
As for te argument of the Big Bang being instigated... who is to say it hasn't been cycling for eternity? Bang/Crunch/Bang/Crunch et al. If this were the case (and it hasn't been proven one way or the other yet) then there WAS no beginning to the universe... therefor the argument that "If there was a beginning then someone had to start it" falls completely on the floor.
But what does "sin" have to do with it being impossible to ever get the situation I described above? If being a sinner DID stop the situation above then that would mean NOBODY would ever get 1000 generations of love.Quote:
Already sinners: Yes I think that's exactly what he's saying.
Yes I would like to know this as well... If this were true it therefor invalidates all Red Shift tests done to dateQuote:
How did they come to the conclusion that the galaxies were accelerating?
And people say that I am the one doing the attacking, am arrogant etc, etc... It galls me that relgious people get away with things because of their belief while anyone who doesn't have a specific religious belief has to suffer as a result.Quote:
I do agree with Gen-X on one point - what Zandura said came over in quite an arrogant way. Calling those who don't follow your school of thought 'swine' is no way to live. Fine, encourage those who you believe to be speaking the truth, but try to be civil. You will only cause more tension between what seems to be two very distinctly opposed camps
*sigh*Quote:
In my opinion I think Atheists definate those who don't have a explanation.
Point 1:
I believe the universe has always existed and has been a repetitious bang/crunch that has been occuring for all eternity. There was NO creation and NO beginning therefor requiring NO creator. The Human Race is the product of the chaotic interaction between components in the universe.
There is no evidence that can be repeated by even the layperson to suggest an omniscient being, but because "no evidence" does not equal "evidence of no existence" the conclusion is that "to the current knowledge attained the indication is that God does NOT exist".
So I have an explaination... that means I'm not an Atheist.
Point 2:
A 5 year old child believes in God not because they have an "explaination" but because their parents tell them God exists.
So the child has NO explaination... that means the good little christian boy is an ATHEIST!!!
Nice postulation Kedaman... once again another one that falls into a burning heap the second it faces its first test
Definition of a religous war
"Two people argueing over whose invisible friend is the best"
To all others:
If the Christian bible is to be considered as infalliable, that would mean the Koran etc are incorrect. Very much an egocentric viewpoint.
Are you saying that god cannot exist outside the mythology which exists in the bible.
Does the fact that Jesus expelled the money leaders from the temple, mean that US tele evanglists should also be expelled.
Matthew 7
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you. 7 "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! 12 So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.' 24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it." 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he taught them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
Apparently you have been speaking about me. Show me so that I may apologize.
Slow down Gen-x, We don't need to talk about this since both you an I know you're wrong. You gave up!
I said that it was my opinion, not that you nessesary needed to be called Atheist. BTW, your nice explanation didn't explain a ****. Say "Universe exist because it exists, you have evidence of that", that's pretty useless whatever bullcrap you decorate it with.
You're going to either maintain your statements or leave this debate. Otherwise, I don't see any point in your jabbering.
VVB
I asked you to consider the "possiblity" that God does NOT exist and your reply indicated that in order for you to even consider that possiblity you would have to be completely insane.
Perhaps you are not reading what I wrote correctly?
"no validations by saying I must be insane ala VVB"
The "I" here relates to what you said of yourself in order to accept such a possiblity... I never said you accused anyone else of being insane. Would you like me to go through all the posts to find that comment or do you remember it now?
Buts lets look at the verse you decided to quote.
1. I'm happy to be judged because I accept the responsiblity for my actions. If I do wrong or if I judge poorly then I should not expect anything more than that. Anyone who does is hypocritical
2. I'm happy with that. Everyone judges everyone all the time... some call it "assumption", others call it "educated guessing" and some calling "estimating"... all in all its about weighing things up and coming to a conclusion. JUDGEMENT. Its only because of this entire verse Christians see judge as a dirty word.
3. I accept the logs in my eye, I actually ADMIT when they are there. Of course this passage is symbolic for picking on the faults of others when not looking at your own. We clearly see this as a symbol because of the way it is written... (sidenote : "The universe was created in 7 days" is NOT a symbol because it was written AS IS, it wasn't a story and it wasn't meant to provide a lesson as this is).
4. Does this mean that only those with small specks can offer to take the LARGE specks out of other people's eyes? So how do you determine who has the bigger speck? I hope you are not going to tell me that because you believe that AUTOMATICALLY means you have a smaller speck?
5. Interesting... This means nobody can EVER be able to say ANYTHING to ANYONE because we are all flawed and shall always remain IMPERFECT. While we are imperfect we cannot say a single word about another person.
6. "dogs" is used as a derogative term... I would assume during the time the bible was written dogs were both mangy and nasty... certainly not bred well as is the case today. So when Matthew wrote this he saw how nasty dogs were at the time and decided to use that as symbolic for people who are shall we say of low character. The same applies to "swine".
So in actual fact our oh so gracious Zandura was also likening us to dogs and swine... how insulting.
7. Another interesting verse. "Ask and it will be given you". If I ask and I DONT get then you will say I did not ask properly. This passage is the reason why christians look at the RESULT before the ACTION. If they were answered then they asked correctly, if the door was opened then they knocked correctly. If however the RESULT was not correct... then they didn't do what was asked of them correctly.
VVB, can you not see this?
8. This just reinforces the fact that if you don't "find" then you weren't really seeking etc
9. What man would give a stone when his "son" asks for bread? I would consider banishment from Eden the very first time the poor and ignorant son "Adam" did something wrong as a "stone"... wouldn't you?
10. Interesting. God created the universe, he created the garden of eden, he created the animals and EVERYTHING in it. So when Adam sought knowledge, when he sought to "know", God gave him a SERPENT that caused his banishment. How very interesting.... I take it then Matthew believes God is an evildoer by this statement.
11. This contradicts Verse 18. If the person is EVIL then he cannot know how to give good gifts to his children because "a bad tree cannot bear good fruit".
12. The only good piece of advice in the passage. This is something I think our law should take into consideration. When someone chooses to murder another do they deserve human rights?
13. Its easy to believe in God, just close your eyes, say everything is as a result of him, everything has a meaning, all is known and all are safe if they believe... I couldn't think of a wider gate.... but try to live a good life believing there is NOT anything beyond, that there is NOT anything forcing you (or terrifying you) to do something and you walk a very tough path... a narrow gate as it were.
14. Explain to me how believing is the HARD path and how not believing is the EASY path? Religion is WRITTEN, the bible is WRITTEN. You have all the facts you will ever want in the universe explained for you in a single book. Science on the other hand must continually struggle and strive to find answers, evolving, growing.. making its fair share of errors but becoming WISER as a result. That sounds like the HARD path to me... rather than having a book dumped in my lap saying "Its all here... look no further".
15. That sounds very much like "Don't listen to anyone else... if I lose your attention you might learn the truth. I will discredit everyone else immediately by putting you on your guard"
16. Blackberries. Probably one of the most sweetest of the berries comes from a thorn bush. Macedamia nuts, probably one of the most flavoured nut comes from the hardest shell. But who is to decide what the metaphorical equivalent of a "thorn bush" is? To a believer anything that promotes NON-belief would be considered a "thorn"... and so this verse basically says "If it doesn't agree then it MUST be bad fruit"
17 & 18. Renforcement of "If its good (read agrees) then its from a good source, if its bad (read disagrees) then its from a bad source". So the fact I am actually disagreeing with this entire verse would be making you think I am committing evil... maybe even the devil is making me do it?
19. Oooo... I wonder what the metaphor here is? We have been talking about "fruit" in the context of people's actions or words or offerings... the "tree" therefor must be the people who GIVE these things... WE now say they must be "cut down" and "thrown into the fire". Are they trying to say that all evil doers should be killed and destroyed?
Perhaps this was the reason why the religious felt so righteous in killing so many innocent people during the inquisitions... they were only cutting down the bad trees
20. If the result is BAD then reverse engineer to say the source is bad.
21. Simple verse saying those who try to believe but don't really mean it or haven't been "christian" will be turfed out
22. Mmmm... I wonder if Zandura thinks he did good in his post? Do you think he believed he, yourself and jdavison were doing "many mighty works in your name?" At one point someone even said they were delivering a personal message from God to me (go read it, its here somewhere).... Was it to serve their own purpose?
23. What happens about Ma and Pa Kent.. who lives the best life, followed everything BUT didn't believe. Will he also turn them away simply because they didn't believe? Did the fact their entire life was lived justly and with more decency than most christians mean they are turned away?
24-27. Now Matthew is big-noting himself. If you do this then you are wise... let me butter you up. If you don't then you are stupid. How egotistical is that???
28. They never said if the astonishment was as a result of understanding or as in they were astonished anyone could actually believe it?
29. So he was just strutting his stuff? Being a bully?
Thank you for bringing that verse forward.... it has highlighted even MORE the inconsistencies, contradictions and use of metaphors...
One thing it has shown though, and I am happy to admit this is that the bible does use "symbolism" not only to cover its innacuracies but also to tell stories and put points across.
I want to correct myself in saying that not ALL symbolisms therefor indicate error. I will REFINE what I have said previously and say that those symbolisms which clearly and obviously indicate a story or lesson (and anyone with common sense can see that) are not incorrect because of this fact... but those symbolisms which were NOT to tell a story or to give a lesson ARE.
THank you VVB for allowing me to correct a previous error so that I am now more knowledgable and what I know is closer to the truth.
I think this situation is getting way out of control now. I had decide to step out of this thread that I probably shouldnt have started. It seem that it was going nowhere for either side. I simple meant this thread to be used to see what exactly they had a problem with in the bible. I admit that my initial post was a bit over zealous. Yes I am a believer. However I dont hold anything or judge against those that aren't, it's not my place to judge. Somewhere along the line this seem to become more of retaliation than a discussion. If I caused this I appoligize. All I can say from what I have seen is that neither side is really proving its point. I believe in science and from what it sounds to me everyone seems to agree that its not always right. This is not to say science is wrong but there is alot that con't be explain or understood. Where this is god or that our understanding is not up to par yet is irelevent now. I wish to appoligize to gen for snapping back and retaliating. Obviously our opinion differ but I hope that this wont be carried into other discussions and that we can atleast "play nice". Kenda, no offence but I'm not exactly sure what your points are but I appreciate your responses.
I guess what I am trying to say is my intent was not to draw lines and insult others but to find what people had a problem with or don't believe and see if I could clarify any of it. Would I try and convert somebody...Yes, I would. From a believers perspective its not to be supreme but out of love. I wish for no one to go through the torment that I beleive is to come. Do I think any less of you if you dont believe...No. I hope that you atleast understand this and why alot of believers behave the way they do.
I will not respond to anything on this thread from now on. If anybody would like to discuss this seriously with me you can email me at [email protected]
John