God is sometimes funny. But usually he's a right boring old fart

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Originally posted by simonm

So you're cherry picking bits of the bible to suit your beliefs (not necessarilly you but the church).

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Disfellowshipping isn't against Jesus's teachings. It was practiced by his apostles and can be read about, mostly in the writings of Paul. And I fail to see how disfellowshipping benefits the people at the top.

We are definitely supposed to help those in need. People who get disfellowshipped don't respond well to the guidance offered by the elders. If the person is genuinely repentant, he/she doesn't get disfellowshipped at all and gets helped back in. Disfellowshipping is only a last resort, after everything else has failed.

Maybe they don't respond to their guidance well because they've realised that their guidance is just bollocks.

What kind of 'wrongdoing' have these people done then? At what point does a minor irritation become a grave atrocity?

I think that disfellowship is yet another scare tactic like "Eternal damnation will await you if you don't ... "

Leaving the congregation is all ok as long as you keep on believing in God.

Leaving the congregation because you start to have doubts about the whole thing and/or its modus operandi is for some unfathomable reason a grave sin.

Tygur

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Disfellowshipping isn't against Jesus's teachings.

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But Jesus himself did not condone that sort of behaviour, indeed, he deliberately made time for the "sinners". Disfellowship of shunning goes against the whole philosophy of what Jesus was about. The fact that you feel justified in overiding that because you've found something else in the bible, is cherry picking (in my opinion).

And it just seems like emotional bullying and that's just plain bad.

i STILL dont see dis fellow worshipping...where is he??

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Originally posted by Tygur

Because it is possible that you might change your mind and we don't have ESP, so we gotta come by to find out.

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Sorta like that phone commercial, ehh?

Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?

Can I see you now?

No, GoodBye!
Slam!

...the next day...

Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?

Can I see you now?

No, GoodBye!
Slam!

...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?

Can I see you now?

No, GoodBye!
Slam!

...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?

Can I see you now?

No, GoodBye!
Slam!

...the next day...
Knock, Knock, Knock
Err, Hello?

Can I see you now?

No, GoodBye!
Slam!

...ad infinitum...

:D

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Originally posted by HarryW
Maybe they don't respond to their guidance well because they've realised that their guidance is just bollocks.

What kind of 'wrongdoing' have these people done then? At what point does a minor irritation become a grave atrocity?

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Basically, it's when you break one of God's commands. In other words, sin. Certain things are worse than others. You can't get disfellowshipped for little things. But bigger things, such as drugs or fornication (sex outside of marriage) can get you in trouble. Keep in mind that if someone does these things and is truly repentant (sorry about it), they will simply get reproved.

What about saying "this religion malarkey... it's all bollocks isn't it? You guys are all just bloody nutters."

Would that count?

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
I think that disfellowship is yet another scare tactic like "Eternal damnation will await you if you don't ... "

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I don't think it's really a scare tactic. A scare tactic like that would be bad, because it would scare people away from getting baptized.

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Leaving the congregation is all ok as long as you keep on believing in God.

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I believe it is actually for the protection of the rest of the congregation. Remember that I said that it was the attitude of the person that determines whether he/she will be reproved or disfellowshipped. So if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread. Remember 1 Corinthians 15:33, which I quoted earlier. "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits."

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Originally posted by Wally Pipp
Leaving the congregation because you start to have doubts about the whole thing and/or its modus operandi is for some unfathomable reason a grave sin.

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The "grave sin" is breaking off a promise made to God. Baptism is sort of an unwritten contract between you and God, saying that you will always follow him. Break it, and bad things happen, just like with any written legal contract.

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Originally posted by Tygur
if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread.

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Who's to say it's a 'bad attitude'? Maybe it's a good attitude. Ignoring anyone that doesn't agree is just sticking your head in the sand.

That's what I've found to be true, Harry.

Bad Attitude = different opinion.

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Originally posted by GlenW
I once told a JW I was a satanist, thinking it would get rid of him.
The sod took it as a challenge.:(

Wasn't even at my house, I was just answering the door for a friend.:rolleyes:

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I did something similar once. I put on my all white contact lenses left over from a costume party when I saw them coming up my driveway. I proceded to tell them I was satan and started screaming like a klingon from a star trek movie. Totally flipped em out. The little jerkoffs came back later with more of their holly roller buddies. :rolleyes:

If all you want to do is mess with them, then by all means use the contacts and put special-effects axe blades in your head.

But if your ultimate goal is to resolve the problem, then the best thing to do is say "No thank you. I'm not interested." and close the door. Then when they keep pounding on the door, get your shotgun and point it out the window and say "Are you still here?"

I was 13 when I did that. I had to, I bet my little brother a lawn mowing and a car wash that I could make one of them piss themselvs. I lost the bet, but they ran pretty damn fast. I have guard dogs now, I don't have to tell them squat.

how bout throwing the bible at them? :p

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Originally posted by ghost ryder
i STILL dont see dis fellow worshipping...where is he??

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ok ok ghostie got u the first time :p but he really should be shipping eh?

Once when the JW came to the door I was super polite and said "No, thanks I am an atheist" To which they responded "oh, I'm so sorry for you" ... pffffttt ... "No", i said..."I am the one sorry for you" :D

Another time I swear this 160 yr old woman came to the door (well she was bloody old anyway) and without saying where she is from she says do you ever worry about air travel considering the complexities of jet engines (this was way before 11/9) ... I was flabergasted... these shock tactics of confusion almost worked but luckily I spotted the Black Watch (ooh Tower I mean :p ) pamphlet and stopped her in her tracks... so, then she offered me the pamphlet and said oh well read this ... I was in the process of closing the door and was gonna take it to hasten it ... but... d'oh... "that'll be $ (i cant remember) " pppftttt yeah right I am gonna pay for something that goes straight to the bin.... I was always left wondering what this woman that could have met Orville and Wilbur knew about the complexities of modern jet engines...

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Originally posted by simonm
Tygur

But Jesus himself did not condone that sort of behaviour, indeed, he deliberately made time for the "sinners". Disfellowship of shunning goes against the whole philosophy of what Jesus was about. The fact that you feel justified in overiding that because you've found something else in the bible, is cherry picking (in my opinion).

And it just seems like emotional bullying and that's just plain bad.

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Here is the way I understand it: When Jesus walked the earth, the "mosaic law" was still in effect. This means that they still had to all attend regular festivals, observe the sabbath, etc. Either after Jesus died, or some time thereafter, a "new law covenant" was imposed. This represented many changes. There was no longer just one nation worshipping God. Things like the sabbath were gone. And congregations were formed. The reason why there was no disfellowshipping during Jesus's time is probably because there were no congregations to get disfellowshipped from.

I believe the whole entire bible should be taken into account. If we simply focused on the gospel accounts and threw the rest away, that would be bad. This is not "cherry picking", because nothing is being rejected. These are things Paul (and possibly others) wrote about managing a congregation that never even existed while Jesus was around.

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Originally posted by Tygur

I don't think it's really a scare tactic. A scare tactic like that would be bad, because it would scare people away from getting baptized.

I believe it is actually for the protection of the rest of the congregation. Remember that I said that it was the attitude of the person that determines whether he/she will be reproved or disfellowshipped. So if the person has a bad attitude and mingles in with the rest of the congregation, it could spread. Remember 1 Corinthians 15:33, which I quoted earlier. "Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits."

The "grave sin" is breaking off a promise made to God. Baptism is sort of an unwritten contract between you and God, saying that you will always follow him. Break it, and bad things happen, just like with any written legal contract.

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The only thing I can conclude is that these are brainwashing tactics : you do as we (or God) tells you and you'll be in heaven, doubt us or even do as much as giving one note of critique and you're a bad influence. Some people will come and talk to you to change your mind (read : brainwash again). If all else fails you're branded a sinner.

Good to see you advocate common sense there :rolleyes: