about creation and AI

1. You can't replicate DNA Digitally
The whole reason our DNA actually works is because of the material it functions in... organic matter. if you try to digitally replicate DNA to a non-organic substance it will fail. Don't forget... part of DNA determines how much seratonin is required to be chemically injected into a neuron to cause it to send a bio-electric pulse to its organicially graphed brother...

Simply replicating this WONT WORK.

2. Create something simple that will create something more complex

Think about what you said...

Lets create something simple : "An AI Dog"
It will create something more complex

Mmmm... I know that I am smarter than a Dog. So I could come up with something better than an AI Dog before IT could.

So I make "An AI Parrot"

Mmmm... I STILL think that I could make something better than an AI Parrot.

It goes on, and on, and on... until I get to the point where I have had to construct something that is NOT simple, it is as complex as me... and yet it is STILL not complex enough because it only has what I gave it.

Does that make sense now?

3. Sam's Spawning AI Life Principle

Sam. Your theory of constructed intelligences that "mimic" sentience such as the robots and other mechanisms utilize AI theories such as Genetic Algorithms, Expert Systems, Natural Language Processing, Neural Networks, Fuzzy Logic and a lot of other things.

You are right. We don't know how they work, they do "APPEAR" to show intelligence.

But guess what!?!?!

You have created an AI Aomeba!!! Woohoo!!!

If you want to create something that does this and it uses ITSELF to evolve then it would have to follow a similar path to ourselves in evolution.

This means it would require the following in order to successfully evolve :

1. Millions of years
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times

Now if it took the universe 65 billion years to do it right... and it did it NATURALLY... how on earth can we get the process to REPEAT itself electronically!?!??!

Don't forget...

WE decide its made of silion
WE decide to use electricity or light
WE decide to put resistors in it
WE decide to use copper circuitboards

What if artificial life was meant to use some OTHER substances? How can we ever recreate something if we are FORCING the materials used in doing it.

Its wasn't a CHOICE that we are carbon based and have 80% of our bodies made of water.... it wasn't even done on PURPOSE. Those materials were the most conducive and the most stable (Carbon is a double bond vailence with Oxygen) of all elements to be able to support life.


While maths might tell you that If you see the numbers :

1 2 3 4 5 6

That the next step is the number 7

The universe doesn't play by those rules. Humanity has been evolving, we compare ourselves to our ancestors of 1000 years ago and we say "We have improved". We see that it is a steady increase and we say "We KEEP improving therefor we will CONTINUE to improve".

In 100 years time we improve to the point where we have perfected Genoside and wipe ourselves out of existance.

PROGRESSION DOESN'T MEAN IT WILL CONTINUE.

You look at a robot that can dodge a wall and you say to yourself "One day it will be like us, it will PROGRESS as we have... therefor one day it will be sentient"

Very flawed logic

As for me "pulling them out of thin air"... My statments and beliefs are grounded not only in scientific theoretical study, but logical analysis with an incredible amount of existing scientific data to support it... I am one of those very "abnormal" people who enjoys reading published works on scientific discoveries.... None of it comes out of the "hat".


BTW, FYI... Doctors now believe that the brain actually DOES generate NEW neurons with age. Althought they are not sure if these new cells form fully fledged neurons they do create what they call quasi-neurons that form NEW connections between existing neurons of the brain...

The natural extrapolation of this is that it supports what we KNOW about people becoming wise with age.

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-01-2000 at 11:13 PM]

I'm going to dig even deeper than Gen-x:

Actually I have done that already, but nobody seemed to answer me on my big big big big Q i posted in the beginning.
I give yuo 100 chocolate boxes even the most stupid answers to this.

Is there anything that is called "SOULS"? Is there anything that is not bound to physical behaivour in this world that is connected to LIFE

Believing in souls don't make this **** easier, im not saying believing in god is the same thing as believing in souls, so i suppose you can:
1. Think that we have souls
2. We don't have souls
This makes:
1. We have souls, we cannot be replicated, copied, our bodies cannot live without a soul.
2. We don't have souls, we can be copied, we are machines of meat and blood, our brains are computers, we respond, behave, think according to a system, that is our brain. We have no actual "INTELLIGENCE" so we cannot create ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE", or we have to redefine INTELLIGENCE so that what we have IS INTELLIGENCE, resulting in that WE CAN CREATE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE

Well, i didn't tell anything about AI in the first point. But what i think, this is most important thing, the lost root directory in the tree that Gen-x builded. The first one will go to Gen-x subdirectories

Now anyone want chocolate?

Bonus question, what is SENTIENT then? 20 chocolate boxes. Sam had pointed something about Genetics. Any clues?

Quote:

---

if you want deep, check out the post "Evolution (for those who care)". that post has all these kinds of posts times 3

---

Hehe, Do you know who started this mess? :D If you do, and know why, you then should now why i'm offering that much chocolate

no i do not believe in a soul. i do believe we are totally able to be copied, we are just meat, bones, organs, etc... no "devine" substance lies within us.

about us being intellegent, i have never thought of that. are we created so that we will never be smarter than a certain point? i dont know, i cant answer that, but i am sure that we will one day be smart enough to create a partialy sentient being. even if its as dumb as a fly, it is sentient nevertheless. i dont even think it is that far away before we create a dumb life form that thinks on its own. give it another 100 years and genetic enginering will be able to do some pretty crazy things.

I didn't see Gen-x last post when i was to post my last post so i have to post my replies into this post. Hope you got it.

Quote:

---

But guess what!?!?!
You have created an AI Aomeba!!! Woohoo!!!

---

What's so funny about that. If we can create AI, we can make it learn zillion times faster than evolution, because of human input to that AI.
WE can give it:
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times
trough enough scientific researh we will learn to advance AI enough fast way so that we can look forward in having more intelligent AI than we are, in near future. I'm not refering to my last post, I'm looking from your aspect.

Quote:

---

WE decide its made of silion
WE decide to use electricity or light
WE decide to put resistors in it
WE decide to use copper circuitboards

---

Now refering to my last post, i suppose we can make organic machines one day. Until then we can experiment with silicon.

Quote:

---

The universe doesn't play by those rules. Humanity has been evolving, we compare ourselves to our ancestors of 1000 years ago and we say "We have improved". We see that it is a steady increase and we say "We KEEP improving therefor we will CONTINUE to improve".

---

I thought you didn't believe in evolution. Have you changed side or are you making another point from our view?

Thanks hdem2, now im waiting for Gen-x to give his thoughts about "souls".

Kedaman

I believe that all forms of "sentient" life have an intangable and unquantifyable aspect to their existance that could be called a "soul". It is also called the spirit, Chi, Chakra and many other things to many other people

Your right... it doesn't have to have any religious connotation at all, in fact if you read the book "Ender's Game" that I mentioned to you before by Orson Scott Card you will find out his definition of what these souls are.

This doesn't preclude the ability for other sentient life from having them because they exist as a result of our force of WILL.

"I think therefor I am"

It is this statement that draws the essense of a human being to itself.

This then leads to what the definition of "Sentience" actually is.... Is a Dog sentient? How about a bird? A gorilla?

Basically my view is that sentience is an "AWARENESS" of your own existance, and the ability to effect that existance knowingly.

In this sense creatures like Dogs and Birds might NOT be considered sentient because althought they are alive they are purely instinctive creatures and their "intelligence" is instinct (or genetic) driven and NOT intellect driven.

Human beings are the ONLY species that has been able to ALTER the course of its own existance. We live in constructed buildings, we fly to the moon, we do things BEYOND our genetic programming.

THIS is sentience... simply wagging your tail, saving the young boy from drowning or being "sheepish" when you were caught chasing the chickens is only following the instinctual responses that were built in.

Quote:

---

What's so funny about that. If we can create AI, we can make it learn zillion times faster than evolution, because of human input to that AI.

---

Ouch! What do you think happens to life forms that evolve zillions of times faster than they are supposed to? They DESTROY THEMSELVES!!!

Why do you think we took this long to get where we are? because that was the time required to make these dramatic changes. Sometimes Faster is NOT a better option

Quote:

---

WE can give it:
2. A perfect environment conducive to evolution
3. ALL required resources
4. The EXACT stimuli at the EXACT required times

---

And how do we know exactly what the perfect environment is? or the resources? Don't forget WE made the choice of the materials it uses... who is to say that those materials are the right ones? Are we not now trying to FORCE life to exist against the natural laws of physics and the universe?

We don't even know what the perfect environment IS, or the required resources... so how can we give them to a construction of our own design?

Quote:

---

Now refering to my last post, i suppose we can make organic machines one day.

---

They are called "clones"... and we are yet to see if a "soul" exists as a result of cloning a "sentient" form of life other than an instinctive one like a sheep or a monkey

Quote:

---

I thought you didn't believe in evolution. Have you changed side or are you making another point from our view?

---

I said I don't believe in DARWIN's theory of evolution. I don't believe its mutation, and I dont believe its survival of the fitest. Don't confuse that with the fact that we ARE evolving... its just the trigger and the vehicle that I disagree with.

Evolution is as I said... a natural progression, the organisms pre-programmed response to the environmental factors around it.

This explains why an entire SPECIES gains a particular trait... because they are all influenced by that same environment. If you believe in Darwin, one Bat mutates Sonar and suddenly a million Bats mutate the same thing... I am surprised people don't see how absoulutely stupid that sounds.

i cant be stuffed reading so im just gonna spam and say hi

I like Gen-X's definition of the soul, however I still don't agree, I think what you have missed out in your philosophy is that it's human nature to rebel and question, this can be attributed to our DNA, Also our parents are not the only influence on us, our freinds, teachers, people on the telly all influence us in some way, what forms us is this whole mixing pot of Ideas, nobody questioned the Idea of God in the Middle Ages because there were no influences to the contrary. The soul as I was told is the part of you that lives after you die, If we don't accept this, and I don't believe in the Idea of the afterlife, I posted my view somewhere on this thread. What is left for the role of the soul?

Sam... Throw the word "Soul" out the window.

Think of it as your "essence"... or "Chi" if you want to be Oriental, "Chakra" if you want to be Indian, "Mojo" if you want to be Austin Powers ;)

Basically its a word to describe that which is PURELY yourself. Something that your genetics says otherwise and something your entire influencial circle says otherwise.

Gallileo tried to tell the Catholic Church that the earth was NOT the centre of the Solar System. The use of his telescope showed him the revolution of the planets and that they were not around earth (I think he spotted Venus or something).

Before that he was DEVOUTLY catholic and the entire environment of the time was that of the Earth being Geocentric to our solar system.

It wasn't a "rebellion" that caused him to make the change, he didn't set out to prove something wrong for its own sake, and he certainly didn't just believe everything that had been taught to him and was passed via genetics.

What he did was have the perspicacity to actually realise for himself that DESPITE everything he knew and felt down to the very CORE of his bones was incorrect.....

THAT is the soul. THAT is what sets us apart from animals, why we have developed beyond then and WHY we do NOT just use instinct.

Look at animals.

You hit them every time they go to eat food, they will LEARN to be scared when eating food [THE MIND]

They are born with the knowledge on how to survive in their environment. It is their INSTINCT.... [THE BODY]

But they have NO soul... they can only act INSTINCTIVELY and with the knowledge they have gained during their survival (ie Dodge the water... nearly drowned, avoid the cave... bear nearly killed me).

Human beings have MORE than just that... heck, we have a Neo-Cortex after all!!! We can overcome things we KNOW to be dangerous and things even our BODIES know to be dangerous and still do them... Animals would never do that unless the alternative was death itself.

Surely even you can see the difference here?

True, but DNA does control most of this. Sure you have different personalities but all those personalities can be found in your DNA. Once your mind is used to a certian type of personality, it is easily accessable for your mind.

I can't remember my history but Gallelao was renaisence right, and a mathematician, he had a great intelect (BODY) and views to challenge what he saw (MIND) it wasn't his soul, or his chi(a bodily energy at the center of chineese medicine, a substance which can flow from person to person and is not a unique personal thing) or his essence (a smell, or flavor) why as humans do we have souls and not other animals, where along the evolutionary ladder did we aquire one? your personality is purley a combination of nature and nurture, if there is such a thing as a soul I don't think it is this.

Gen-x:

Quote:

---

Identical Twins are seperated at birth and go to live in 2 totally different places. After several years they are brought together and amazingly they exhibit some extremely similar characteristics despite the fact they were in different environments.

---

Two identical twins are not identical. In fact's it's gramatically wrong, there can't be two identical things, by many arguments, and this one will fall because two "identical twins" had the same DNA but are different bodies. The DNA will never build up a person without being affected by either mutation or environment. So your DNA is not you.

Quote:

---

"SOUL"
Basically its a word to describe that which is PURELY yourself. Something that your genetics says otherwise and something your entire influencial circle says otherwise.

---

I asked you about "SOUL" as a part that is not of physical character. did you misunderstand me or did you answer me? Is "Soul" just a a word like "Hate", "Love" or "Math", or do you think Souls have a particular existance? Is soul an illusion? (Refering to evolution thread)

Sam

Galleleo Challenging common beliefs is NOT the Mind. The Mind is what you have been taught to be true, your education, culture, society...

In that respect Galleleo would have believed the earth was the centre of the universe... after all that is what he was always taught.

Thus it was him going AGAINST his mind, AGAINST what he had always told was true that he came to his conclusions.

The capacity for his intellect was his BODY (DNA), but not the content itself. The content was STILL his mind.

We acquired our "soul" when we became self-aware. When another Animal has reached the ability to actually gain true sentience (Go look at a SETI site for the definition of this) then we will know if they have a soul.

I have to ask if you agree with this first, because of you dont' even agree with THIS simple concept then there isn't any use in continuing.

And seeing as you are now looking up words and applying the incorrect meaning to them (typical problem with the english language) how about trying to look up the word facecious :mad:

Magatron
DNA does NOT control most of this. I can exhibit ANY personality I want, neurons have NO chemical bonds in the neo-cortex when you are born.. it is your UPBRINGING that establishes those bonds.

DNA is a blueprint for FUNCTION. This means that it IS possible to have defects, mental conditions and the like in your DNA but it is NOT something that will tell you that you will be a stubborn person, or a jealous one, or a happy-go-lucky one... that comes from your experiences.


Kedaman
"Identical" in this means "Started with the same DNA template". This means that gentically at birth they are the same. Of course mutation can change this "slightly"... but it wont cause them to suddenly sprout hair or grow a tail now will it?

I know you do not natively speak english, which means some of the meaning behind it is lost. The tests were done to show that similar genetics can in SOME cases show similar personalities.. but not ALWAYS.

It was done to show that your DNA is not wholely responsible for what you are... just as other tests were dont to show that your upbringing wasn't wholely responsible.

They came to the conclusion that it was a "combination of both".

Its just MY theory that there is an esoteric part that there is a 3rd source and to my mind this explains why not EVERYONE who had an alcoholic father didn't become one themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Sam Finch
I can't remember my history but Gallelao was renaisence right, and a mathematician, he had a great intelect (BODY) and views to challenge what he saw (MIND) it wasn't his soul, or his chi(a bodily energy at the center of chineese medicine, a substance which can flow from person to person and is not a unique personal thing) or his essence (a smell, or flavor) why as humans do we have souls and not other animals, where along the evolutionary ladder did we aquire one? your personality is purley a combination of nature and nurture, if there is such a thing as a soul I don't think it is this.

---

sorry my bad, I didn't write what I thought I'd written

The Point Was that Galleleo was Part of the reneissance, every body was challening the views around them, that was the thing to do at the time. He was influenced by those around him.

The only example I can think of of your "Soul People" is someone who is mentally disturbed and acts irrationaly, Is this what you mean by a soul?

Gen-X: What controls your perosnality then? You feelings are different functions in your DNA. It has to be some form of matter that controls you.

Simply put (what megatron said) Do you think "soul" is of physical character? Is there a code how of how you act? Or has "soul" no scientific explanation?

It must be some form of matter that has the instructions to influence your behavior. Therefor, if you're an angry person, your DNa will make your feeling of anger and rage more easily accessable than your other feelings.

Why MUST it be some form of matter that influences your behavior?

I agree that some people may have a genetic disposition TOWARDS a particular behavior (hereditary spouse beating for instance) but that doesn't mean you will do it.

Some people have the ability to OVERCOME what their genetics tell them to do.

Imagine this :

- A man's father was an alcoholic
- The man himself "feels" the lure of alcohol
- But the man doesn't drink... in fact he stops himself


This has shown that even with a genetic weakness towards that area he can MENTALLY overcome that weakness.


This is how people sometimes CURE diseases like obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), gambling, smoking and drinking... They train their MINDS to overcome what their bodies are telling them.

While I agree with you Mega that the body DOES contain some of these behavioral traits, it doesn't mean that EVERYTHING comes from genetics... the mind and the construction of neural pathways can completely ALTER a persons personality, behavior and even bodily function (See Stigmata... its where the MIND believes so strongly it can actually cause itself to bleed).

Your example of the alchoholic, I've seen cases like this, the son doesn't drink because He has learnt from his Father's mistakes, I still don't understand where the Soul part of your psychological makeup comes in.

Is stigmata like an extreme example of the power of suggestion, I've done some hypnotism in my time so I'm seen some lesser examples, (I've had people seeing Pink Elephants and stuff, and I had a guy walking backwards for half an hour asking everybody why on earth they were walking forwards) But Bleeding!! I'd be very impressed if someone managed that (or scared probably) Can it really be done?

Gen-x, i was asking of what nature "soul" could be. Can you answer me?

Gen-X:

ALL of the instructions for you you are in your DNA your body thakes those functions and uses them! It's not some soul that does it. How can this non-matter soul affect a form of matter??

Kedaman

Read between the lines... I dont KNOW where the soul comes from, what it is... all I know is that I can see a distinct difference between matters of the mind and matters of the body that I personally put down to what I call a "soul"

Megatron

You really are not grasping this concept are you? I can understand it is your philosophy to think that a human being is a complex organic machine.. right down the the very last. That every single thing about us is pre-determined and that at some point in our future we can completely copy and recreate human beings like they were clumps of proto-matter.

Taking that into account I can see perfectly why you refuse to see anything other than that.


Imagine a car. The car is a machine that has all of the "functions" as you like to call it built in. It contains everything you need to drive, each of the components interact with each other and work...

But it has no DRIVER... without that driver it is simply a machine. You can turn it on, you can even point it in a single direction but it wont respond. You need something controlling the body.

The human body is made up of 2 different types of responses... Autonomous (heart beat, breathing, reflexes) functions that you do not control and that just WORK... it also has responses that you MUST control in order to function (walking, etc). Now we say that walking is a neural trigger from the brain to tell the limbs to move... but what tells the brain to send that impulse? It just triggers because a complex interconnection of billions of neurons just "happened" to come to the conclusion that I want to walk forward now?

That is what sentience is about... the ability to do something THAT HAS NOT BEEN PREDETERMINED.

Will I have a chocolate cake this morning or caramel? Mmmmm... I like both of them equally, I haven't had either of them in a long time.. Which to choose... which to choose.

Please Megatron.. tell me what my DNA tells me to pick?

Gen-X

Okay, I see your point now, and without a doubt, I don't think I can argue much further. But a soul is not a form of matter. How can non-matter influence matter? What happens to this soul after you cease to exsist? Even if this is true, does that mean that dogs cats and even protopla and bactera have souls as well?

Quote:

---

Read between the lines... I dont KNOW where the soul comes from, what it is... all I know is that I can see a distinct difference between matters of the mind and matters of the body that I personally put down to what I call a "soul"

---

Were' still on the same subject, same definition, YOUR DEFINITION. What is your "soul" that is not matter and interacts with it? OR DON'T YOU KNOW?

Quote:

---

But it has no DRIVER... without that driver it is simply a machine. You can turn it on, you can even point it in a single direction but it wont respond. You need something controlling the body.

---

Of what nature is this driver? You can't missunderstand me one more time. You keep explaining what it does, and we all now it already, but you don't tell us what it is.

Kedaman

For @*#$^@#& sake!!

How many times do I have to explain to you that I DONT KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!

I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms


If I ask you who/what God is I am sure you will give me similar answers... you dont know yourself you just know it exists.

Megatron

Quote:

---

But a soul is not a form of matter. How can non-matter influence matter?

---

Is Time matter? Yet it influences us?

Quote:

---

What happens to this soul after you cease to exsist?

---

Personally I think that it does whatever it wants to do... if you are a christian then it goes to heaven (or hell if that is what you have chosen), if you are bhudist you go to bhuda, if you believe in reincarnation then you get reincarnated.

For me it explains why people see what their religious beliefs have taught them to see at the time of death/near death... the white light and all that...

If you think there is nothing but oblivion beyond death then that is exactly where your soul will go.

Quote:

---

Even if this is true, does that mean that dogs cats and even protopla and bactera have souls as well?

---

Like I said before... my personal belief is that souls are a result of sentience... TRUE sentience... not just animalistic instinct. So dogs and cats dont have souls because they are purely instinctual creatures, they don't have the brain capacity to be able to support a driver.

Think of the car example again... We say the car can have a driver... But can a single wheel have a driver? Or how about a grain of rice? That is like saying bacteria has a soul

Quote:

---

I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms

---

I think that'll keep Kedman happy, I think I see what you mean by the soul, do you mean that the soul is the personality itself, born from Nature and Nurture like a child is born from its parents, am I at least barking in the right forest?

Gen-X

If WE have souls, than every living being should have a soul. We are no differnet. We all have the 7 characteristics of life. If think that all this mumble jumble was created back in the old days when technology was not so advanced and people are crazy believers. These traditions carried on and some people still believe them.

If this is true. How did people first come up with the idea of a soul? Or how did someone come up with heaven or hell or reincarnation? Has anyone actually seen/experienced these things?

Sam

Your sort of in the right forest... but instead of it being a "combination" of nature and nurture I think it is something that is "neither" nature OR nurture.

Megatron

Quote:

---

If WE have souls, than every living being should have a soul. We are no differnet. We all have the 7 characteristics of life. If think that all this mumble jumble was created back in the old days when technology was not so advanced and people are crazy believers. These traditions carried on and some people still believe them.

---

Maybe you should read again what I said about a driver... some "machines" just simply cannot be driven, they simply function based on the commands they were given (instinct) while others can actually have a driver take control and get them to do things that were beyond their mechanical abilities (sentience)

So in this respect we are VERY much different... firstly we (and the other primates) are the only creatures in existance to have a neo-cortex, which is the outer layer of the brain responsible for higher order functions.

Quote:

---

If this is true. How did people first come up with the idea of a soul? Or how did someone come up with heaven or hell or reincarnation? Has anyone actually seen/experienced these things?

---

"soul" is just a name. In fact it is an anglo-saxon christianic word which they use to describe the spirit of a person that goes to either heaven or hell.

In oriental culture they are "ghosts", in the greek culture they are "spirits" or "avatars".

The point is that WE decided what they were and where they lead us. That was my point about people going where they WANT to go when they die... If they have decided you get reincarnated and they came up with the concept of what it is then for THEM that is exactly where they will go. Maybe that means another dimension, another reality, or just an infinate loop of proto-matter...

Heck... maybe OUR universe is a collection of "souls" that some other trans-dimensional species dreamed up as a place where they go when they die :)

Quote:

---

Sam

Your sort of in the right forest... but instead of it being a "combination" of nature and nurture I think it is something that is "neither" nature OR nurture.

---

I thought that was what I said, the soul is "born" from your DNA and your experience, kinda like I was born from my parents, I'm neither my mother nor my father but I'm still a combination of the 2 (don't push this analysis too far, the similarity probably ends quie quickly) Is that what you meant?

Is that outer part of the brain the place where the soul is created? No. Therefor, it doesn't matter if we have 100 layers. There are several different nerves in the brain that extract functions from your DNA and that helps you live.

The example with the driver and the car: The driver is like your nerves sending signals to yourself, not a soul.

I don't think he means the soul is a physical thing, kinda like a computer program, a number or an Idea isn't a physical thing, it's known as an abstract noun. The soul is your personality itself, I think that's what he's saying.

Does anyone here get the station TLC? If so, there was a 1 hour special on this evolution bit. They said that at the beginning, an atom was created out of nothing. How is the possible?

he he there still trying to puzzle that out, I don't think they're saying it was created from nothing, it was created from a singularity, kinda like a black hole in reverse.

Quote:

---

Is Time matter? Yet it influences us?

---

It does not, because without time nothing can influence nothing. So as definition says, Time is the reason for influence.

Quote:

---

I told you that I can see a distinct difference that is not explained by either mind OR body and I have put it down to soul. I can make any number of postulations if it will make you feel better :

1. Particles from another dimension called Philotes that entwine when passing into OUR reality causing the atoms to form together to create us.

2. The creation in another dimension of our "essense" aquired when we reach sentience and are actually aware of ourselves.

3. A self-determining trans-dimensional, para-neuraletic consciousness that attaches itself to biological organisms


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that'll keep Kedman happy, I think I see what you mean by the soul, do you mean that the soul is the personality itself, born from Nature and Nurture like a child is born from its parents, am I at least barking in the right forest?

---

I'm happy with what you have given me Gen-x, that's exactly what i wanted you to say. Now I ask you one more thing, if consiousness is not dependent of matter, created when new humans are born, and goes it's own way when they're leave the biological organism, what do you think is more fact, that we are, or that universe is? This causes a conflict in our universe, that physics cannot explain: Nothing is interacting with something, Hence we or universe cannot exist. Do you agree on this or not?

Also if no one else have an explanation for this, I say I have.

Actually they are kind of right when they say it was created out of nothing.... but you have to understand the "perspective" from which it was meant.

We have proved that particles "appear" inside a vaccum. This is basically the same principle.

All atoms consist of 3 Quarks and depending on whether its a proton, electron or neutron determines which of those quarks it is (I think there ar 7 types of quarks).

It is believed that Quarks exist in a "field" that is outside the perception or "existance" of our 3rd Dimension. Just like the Sun is a process of Hydrogen atoms colliding and fusing to form Helium (it doesn't happen so much that the entire sun is Helium... its a gradual process of conversion) some believe that the universe is a process of Quarks colliding and fusing into atoms... at which point they leave this "field" an phase into what WE consider reality.

So from the point of view of the person in OUR reality they would see "something... created out of... nothing"

I know that doesn't sit well with you Megatron... you like to think that every single thing in existance is completely and totally made of matter, that it MUST have some form and that it MUST come from somewhere.

Sam
No you still misunderstand what I mean by "soul". It is not something born of the two things... it is NOT something that comes as a result of the other 2...

I can't state it any more clearly than this :

I believe the soul has NOTHING to do with DNA and NOTHING to do with conditioning/education. It is COMPLETELY seperate from your mind and TOTALLY seperate from your body.

It is NOT something that sprouts from the combination of the two (and remaining distinct from either one), it is something that develops completely on its own.

The only thing that can change is which of the 3 components you follow most... MIND, BODY or SOUL. Some people might have a terrible experience in their life which causes the MIND to exhurt over the top of both body AND soul. That doesn't mean its changed.

Megatron
You can't see passed it can you?

If the car/driver is like your brain sending signals to itself that is like saying the car battery telling the car to drive. You need something EXTERNAL to a machine to get it going... it may have a power source like a battery and combustable fuel like petrol... but it is still only going to drive in a stright line.

I never SAID that it was our neo-cortex where the soul is born... I said it was the neo-cortex that gives US the ability to actually be sentient... and that it is the SENTIENCE that gives us a soul... whether that soul comes into existance as a result of our awareness or it "attaches" itself because our SENTIENCE is actually an anchor I don't know.

But I ask you this Megatron... Why is it that human beings are the only species that can SPEAK, WRITE, READ among other things... because we hare just highly developed instinctual animals?!?! We *ARE* different to every other form of life on this planet.

Think about Apes. We are told that they are our ancestors. Through evolution we were the end product of millions of years of evolution from Apes. If that were the case, then why are there no longer ANY of the inbetween steps from US to THEM? Surely if Neanderthal man was better able to survive (hence the WHOLE reason he evolved from apes) then HE would be here and THEY would not?

Hasn't it ever bothered you the fact that the ENDS of the evolutionary chain exist but the middle is strangely non-existant? I agree that our DNA makeup is the same, but then again isn't "most" life the same? 2 occular units, 1 heart unit, 2 lung units, rib-cage.. etc, etc. (I'm excluding crustatians, jelly fish and the like for the moment, their environmental stimulous for development is greatly different from ours). It isn't a co-incidence that ALL bipedal and quadrapedal forms of life share the SAME traits of existance.... it also isn't coincidence that homo sapien is the ONLY form of life with a neo-cortex and we just happen to be the only form of life that develops art, philosophy, literature etc...

You can't tell me we are just the same as animals in anything but a biological sense.

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-10-2000 at 07:36 PM]

kedaman

Who ever said "nothing" influences "something"?

That I say my personal opinion on what a soul is, does not constitute matter does NOT mean it is "nothing".

Perhaps by our definition of what "something" and "nothing" are you could say that but as you could read from what it might be, it could be like quarks... something that exists outside of our 3rd-dimension (has no substance) and yet because it exists in another place that has an intersection with our dimension (funny enough, right at the point where WE are) that it is the reason for us having control.

Now I am sure you have an explaination for what it is and where it comes from... I have known from the beginning of your questioning about my opinion that you have been wanting to head directly towards "God is the reason for our soul, it comes from HIM, HE controls it"... It has been so obvious from the moment you asked the question, as if you were trying to lead me in that direction form the beginning.. not because it was a natural direction to go... but because it was the direction YOU wanted to go.

If it makes you happy to accept my opinion but twist it to say that God is responsible for it then enjoy the rapture it brings you... but that isn't what I am saying and it certainly isn't the direction I would go.

So I guess I have to summarise for you my singular opinion as to why God does NOT exist.

- Assumption : God created the universe
- Requires : God to be omniscient and sentient
- Sentience is an exhibition of control
- It is an influence that can "direct"
- It is the antithesis of instinct which only "reacts"
- Our universe is about "reactions" not "anticipations"
- Therefor if God controls our universe he is NOT sentient
- If he is NOT sentient then is is not a "being"
- If he is NOT a being then he can only be a "force"
- Therefor remove the label of "God" because that is a being

I am not saying that the above statements are scientific in any way... it is a simple explaination of why I personally disbelieve in a creator philosophy, because for me the existance of a creator indicates a known and obvious existance in the universe.... and I do not need to function thinking there is any reason, purpose or "goal" to be achieved... if there is they are the goals we set for ourselves as human beings and as the human race.

I believe in ideas such as honesty, compassion, sincerity, honor, respect for life and everything else... but they are not qualities dictated to us by some supreme being... they are concepts that WE have developed and choose to follow.... just like "some" of us choose to follow the concept that they were created by someone else.

I just don't see why we are the only form of life woith a soul. Surely we are much more intelligent but that doesn't make a differnce. Bears and Lions are much stronger than us. Shouldn't that count as "special qualities"?

I like your example of the car and the driver but it just doesn't make sense to me that there is some form of Non-matter controlling me and telling me to write all of this. I belive it's a combination of nerve signals and functions from your DNA that make us up. There is no external source telling me what to do.

how do these "souls" get created? When do they get created. When we are a small zygote? embryo? half-born? How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?

OK, now I don't know what you mean by the soul, the way I see it you have your personality, the thing that makes decisions. This is shaped by Your DNA and outside influences on your personality.

Are you saying there's something else that influences it. where does this soul come from? your DNA and your experiences combine in a very complicated way, i'd say chaotic but it's probably not something maths and chaos can describe. the point is just because people don't turn out like their parents doesn't mean there's any other "Factor" to your personality if you look at the smoking thread ravcam is increadibly anti smoking because his parents smoked. I'm influeced more by my freinds than my parents. your personality is a combination of your DNA and all the influences around you, some of them you adapt to positivly others negativly. I don't think a third influence is involved, especially not one that doesn't seem to be accounted for anywhere.

Quote:

---

Now I am sure you have an explaination for what it is and where it comes from... I have known from the beginning of your questioning about my opinion that you have been wanting to head directly towards "God is the reason for our soul, it comes from HIM, HE controls it"... It has been so obvious from the moment you asked the question, as if you were trying to lead me in that direction form the beginning.. not because it was a natural direction to go... but because it was the direction YOU wanted to go.

---

No i'm not pointing at God. Actually i'm pointing at myself. This theory is clearly differing from my beliefs in God. I would say god created humans but i wouldn't say he created our souls, that's what differing my theories here: There was a will from the beginning, ONE will, it was god, and not telling you how it actually worked out but now, theres are billions of wills, all pointing in different directions, trying to change "universe", which is a shared illusion in that sense that god dreamed about this before all this, and after the split, we share that dream, because we're connected. I'm telling you that universe does not exist, that it's an illusion, that we control it and we are all parts of god. End of theory. Now you can't kick me for that because you have nothing to take logics from when they are illusions. Also, you can't kick out god from this universe because he already is. You can't apply logics from this universe, or this illusion on god because nothing says that he can only be this or that but this and that or none or/and both of them at the same time. In english: How on earth can you explain something that is not explainable. It has even been written in the bible

I can tell you that god' does not exist. Simple, true and fact, all at the same time because when we use exist word, we have always used, it, we refer to something that's not. Also "Nothing" was Nothing becase it's not in our universe. And whats not in an illusion can be true. Did you get my point? You told me about dimensions, i think there are just as much as we see them, because they are illusions, there can't be more than what we can't see. If we found more of them, they will be only added to the illusion.

From the other side, Universe exists. God does not, because he is not in it, and universe is definition for everything so if God isn't there then he can't exist. Simple, true and fact.

Now this theory is my explanation but that's not what i believe in, because i believe in God. If you think i'm so stupid that i would believe in him for stupidity then point your finger at the rest of religious humanity, including yourself because if you believe in universe then thats your stupid religion.

I'm totally sceptical to everything except myself, my "soul" the driver that is so blind, he have nothing to look at but he want it so much that he can see it: Universe

Megatron

Quote:

---

I just don't see why we are the only form of life woith a soul. Surely we are much more intelligent but that doesn't make a differnce. Bears and Lions are much stronger than us. Shouldn't that count as "special qualities"?

---

What do "special qualities" have to do with it? It isn't STRENGTH that determines soul its the ability to do something external to your environment and your influences.

A lion is a lion is a lion... it never acts like a human or acts like a fish. The reason for this is that lions and bears are INSTINCTUAL. They do what they do because their genetics PROGRAMS them to do it. They eat, they play, they procreate, they die. Everything they do is based purely on the genetic memory that was programmed into them at birth... and as they grow up their parents "teach" them, what they have learned... MIND and BODY.

Humanity is different. It is our INSTINCT (Body) to procreate... and yet more and more people choose NOT to... have you ever known an animal to ABSTAIN from sex because it didn't feel like making babies?

Or a lion that turned down a deer even when it was ravenously hungry because it felt SORRY for the deer?

Of course not!!!! THAT is the difference between US and THEM. We can make the choice that goes against everything INSTINCTUAL and everything TAUGHT. (Are you reading this bit Sam?)

Quote:

---

I like your example of the car and the driver but it just doesn't make sense to me that there is some form of Non-matter controlling me and telling me to write all of this. I belive it's a combination of nerve signals and functions from your DNA that make us up. There is no external source telling me what to do.

---

Now this is where you have it wrong. "IT" is "YOU". Its not telling you what to do... YOU are telling YOU what to do. Its still your brain, its still your body... but it is ALSO YOUR soul. Some people believe that the existance of this "soul" can be seen in auras when you look at people through radiographic spectrums... This "radiance" is far brighter in human beings than it is in any animal.

Quote:

---

how do these "souls" get created? When do they get created. When we are a small zygote? embryo? half-born? How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?

---

Ok. I am going to "theorise" here. Take into account this is jut off the top of my head.

How do these "souls" get created?
They are not created. They are just like Quarks. They are "particles" that all float around somewhere.

When do they get created?
When Quarks meet under certain conditions and there are 3 of them then they form an atom. "souls" are created when the conditions are met to bring them into existence... OUR existence.

When we are a zygote? embryo? half-born?
Here is the funny thing. Lets take a baby. It was born with instincts, the ability to breath under water etc, etc... It knows how to breath, it wants to eat, it wants to poop. At this stage it is purely instinctual. There comes a point when this "being" finally realises that it exists... it doesn't just LIVE any more, it doesn't just DO... suddenly it realises that it has its own existance, its own willpower, its own abilities. I believe at THAT point the soul comes into existance.

How does this souce of non-matter attract itself to humans and when does it do it?

Imagine this. We have a stream of water. In that stream are lots of weeds. The weeds continue to float down river. Suddenly there is a STICK in the river and a weed gets "caught" on it.

Now lets consider the fact that we exist in the 3rd dimension. At some point we come to TRUE sentience, and it is THIS sentience that creates a STICK in the river. Now lets say that the "conditions" under which the quarks form is that there is a STICK in the river.

At the point of our sentience we create a conduit, a "presence" in a higher dimension that is not VISIBLE to our own here in the 3rd dimension. As the contents of this other dimension are say "philotes" (for want of a better word), they are snagged on this new presence in their dimension and our "soul" is formed.

Now this "soul" can be shaped by our DNA and it can be shaped by our "mind"... its now connected to us symbiotically and so just as we can damage ourselves it gets damaged as well. If our mind is hurt it could hurt the soul.

(This ones for you Sam)

But it does NOT mean that the soul was CREATED as a product of the BODY and the MIND... if you have a particularly STRONG philote then it resists the effects of the body and the mind... in fact if it is THAT string it can sometimes CHANGE the body and the mind...

To challenge you Sam... lets take a family.

Father bashes his wife. His son grows up in an environment where his DNA tells him to bash his partner and his EDUCATION tells him to bash his partner...

How then is it possible that he will grow up to do something DIFFERENT when both his MENTAL and his DNA influences both tell him the same thing????

[Edited by Gen-X on 05-10-2000 at 11:11 PM]