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OH MY GOD ROBIII THEY'VE LOST THEIR QUALITY :rolleyes:
no for reals now, I am not trying to discurage you, but I think it really helps if you kind of know what the game should look like later on, most game developers create "screenshots" before they create anything, just some basic outlines...
maybe some of you guys should try some (could be handdrawn too) and than you can talk about which ones you like and what to take and what not and than make the single baars and buttons...
First of all: Developers DON'T create screenshots. Thats what Designers are for.
Second: Most (commercial) games start out with storyboards and these sorts of things and in the first few stages are still drawn on paper to get an idea of the look and feel. Also a lot of planning and discussing about technical issues as the engine etc. take place in these stages. Only the last few stages involve actually designing in digital form and developing.
And as I stated before: I don't think you're ready for these stages yet...
Well you are right about that it is the designers job. I meant the whole team by saying the developers. Well you really do not need a storyboard for an online game, and what I said about those "screenshots" was related to the creation of the user panel since they already started those.
Of course it would be good to discuss some techniques first.
/\/\isanThr0p, If you know so much about doing the graphics, you want to do some that are of very high quility?
RobIII, I would have saved them in JPG or GIF, but since I planned on zipping them up (and they are temporary), the formatting wouldn't make a lot of differnce. Look at the compression ratio of the JPGs or GIFs and my BMPs. I was also having problems due to the fact that I had a bigger file. If I wouldn't have attempted to include that file, I could have posted them up in one big zip file too.
Hey gaming world I was not trying to offend you.
I was just joking and I was talking about the quality of the bitmap not the quality of the graphic. Since they are just samples I would have posted them with strong compression so its fast to view and upload (especially for those poor modem users)
well I am sorry if I offended you.
I wish you best luck on your project.
What I don't like is when people say that your work sucks, but woun't say how to improve it and/or woun't create better for you. If they think that something sucks, they should be able to do better.
If you think we're here to do it FOR you, you're in the wrong place. You'll have to do it yourself (or with your team), all we can do is provide hints/tips/advice. We're not your mom :DQuote:
Originally posted by Gaming_World
What I don't like is when people say that your work sucks, but woun't say how to improve it and/or woun't create better for you. If they think that something sucks, they should be able to do better.
Do your dirty laundry yourself :D
Gaming specifically mentioned giving hints or tips to improve, I believe.
Rob, why are you even here, if all you ever give are negative comments? You have repeatedly shown that you know next to nothing about the game development process. Lets boil it down.
Stage 1: Design
This is where a design document is created, concept art is created, tentative GUI design is laid, and engine specifications are drwan up. Both the designers and developers, as well as the other members of a team have a heavy impact on this stage. Designers are not there to dictate a game to a programmer/artist/musician. There is a flow back and forth, a brainstorming if you will. This process generally continues until late stages in development, prompting a very modular engine and game design.
Stage 2: Engine implementation
This stage is optional, as you do not need a game engine to create a game. This stage begins the engine creation process, to create a modular, and reusable code base.
Stage 3: Game implementation
This is the stage where the actual game is implemented, tweaked, etc. The engine is usually finalized near the beginning of this phase, as is the final design document. Artists should now be busy creating release, or near release quality artwork, and the musicians are hard at work creating a stunning score.
Stage 4: Testing
Obviously, this is the final testing stage, and may include a public beta test. If any problems are found, they are terminated.
Stage 5: Release
This is the final goal.
These are not very hard steps to follow, nor do they require "professional" programmers to accomplish. You DO have to take the steps in order though, and none of them get done in a few weeks.
Perhaps you should experience the process before commenting on how "badly" this team is doing.
Z.
I'm NOT commenting on how "bad" they are doing. I'm WARNING them. Just to tell them it ain't easy. No pun intended.
The stages you mentioned are the same as I mentionend (maybe in different word-ings but hey...)
But I do not agree that stage 1 is for developing already. Maybe we can agree to split step 1 in two steps:
1) design document is created, concept art is created, tentative GUI design is laid...
2) actual developing starts
Also EVERY game has "some sort" of an engine. If it is reusable or modular is another thing. So although the "Engine" may be specific to their game, it is still just a bunch of code. Difference is that a "good engine" can be used again for some other (new) games.
I am a professional developer (full time) working in a team with:Quote:
Perhaps you should experience the process before commenting on how "badly" this team is doing.
1) Project Managers
2) Technical Managers
3) Designers
4) Developers
5) Testers
and lots of other "...-managers" like account-managers etc. So don't try to tell me how this process works. We work on long-term projects (some of them 3 months, others 3 yrs) in one form or another in the "stages" described above. We also use RAD methods (Rapid Aplication Development) where application development is started in very early stages, but still "stage 1" (as I stated above) is always complete before 1 line of code is written. This is because the team-players all need to agree the direction we're taking.
If you'd like to know what sort of projects we do: I work for a BIG company and we build CD-Rom productions for children in school (6-12yrs old I'd say) and build (e-commerce) websites for big commercial companies like Canon. I am specialising in ASP/VBScript and for many years in Visual Basic now. Also databases (MS SQL) and HTML/Javascript are some of my "specialties". I've programmed before for the Motorola 68K in ASM and have been around in C(++), Delphi and some "project-specific" languages. Also I've programmed PLC's and have worked for a computer company for 3 years supporting/repairing and maintaining hardware, servers and networks (routers/switches/firewalls etc). But I must admit that most knowledge for me is based on Microsoft stuff...
And even I learn something new (even on these forums) about VB almost every day...
Oh, ...
And I'd like to apologize for some strong words I have used in a previous post (a few posts ago)... They may have come out wrong, and I just had a bad day...Sorry...
I will agree with most things above, except for the engine stuff. An engine is completly separate from game code. The actual game code USES the engine, so that the two never mix. If you have rendering stuff, for instance, tied directly into some game logic, you no longer have an engine, instead, you have a game. To resuse that code, you would have to dive in, and rip out all of the mixed code, hoping that you dont destroy what you want in the process. To reuse an engine, you simply drop in the existing code, and start.
Sorry if I came across as being an ass, but it really bugs me when I see someone telling others what they cant do.
I certainly agree about the design phases, but for amateur projects such as this, it always helps to get something ont he screen while the designing is going on, so people dont lose interest during the "boring" parts of development(development, meaning the entire process). Personally, Design is one of the most fun aspects.
I also agree that it is a difficult project, but not nearly impossible. VB's speed is not much of an issue, as you can create DLLs to do some time critical functions for you.
Anyway, sorry for sounding bitchy, I apologize =).
Z.
well I think I did tell you guys what I think should be done better so I am not just saying you suck, but I try to give tips. I don't have the time to do artwork for a project I am not involved in and I am not a designer either, I still think that I got the right to say that those pictures were not that great.
See the problem is that none of us are graphic designers (as far as I know). I belive we are all programers and/or web-masters.
there's always a lack of artists, but I have seem some guys around here making quite nice graphics. If you read a book about photoshop you are already able to do a lot better than what was posted. (search for some tutorials, I had a photo class a year ago, did some stuff there quite impressing what you can do pretty easily if you know how to (and got the time ... of course))
hm I forgot about the name of the book
when I remember I will post it, I really think it's worth the 40$ (well you can find most of it on the net too) or 50$ if you live out of USA. (like me)
I took a photography class last semsitser, and they did a light covering of Photoshop there. Before that class, I used MS Paint.
what a powerful tool :)
well than I would look to get a little deeper into photoshop
sorry ive been gone for a few days.
I had some family business to deal wth...
I think we should probably get some one JUST for
art work...(So programmers dont have to do everything, although we can, it
is still toooooo much work for however many people we have..)
I know, I want too. But I don't have the time or money to pay for one out of school.
I also argee that we need an artist (who isn't do anything else).
Ill go post a thread in the graphics forum part of vbforums and see if anyone want to join...
Sigh :rolleyes:
Ok ok fine, ill help you guys out with graphics :)
I love media, so im not that bad at it
I just have to know you guys are serious about this... that this isen't going to fall appart in the next few weeks.
And I have to warn you, I don't have alot of time but 2d graphics don't take me that long to do.
Heres a sample I just drew a few weeks ago in like ½ hour.. I was bored. (sorry kinda bad quality, lowerd cause of attachment limit)
BTW: Check out my "music offer post" in the projects request forum.
well Gaming_World, seems like you found just the right person for that job.
Guys:
Being programmers is a benefit to you. Fancy graphics are just the icing on the cake. A game is playable with simple coloured squares (or whatever) for the meantime while you ensure that the gameplay works.
I agree with Rob to a certain degree. A project as complex as this has to be planned meticulously if you want it to take off. Have an idea of how everything works before you start plugging it together. Split it into individual sections (eg movement, combat etc) and work out rules as to how they work. Have a good read through the Sentience thread for ideas.
As an aside, Sentience didn't have quite the strict, structured planning that I'm recommending for you, but this is mainly due to the fact that Arbiter and I have been very good friends for over 12 years now, and we know how each other works and how to get this project completed.
Zaei:
I didn't know you thought so much of Sentience. I felt truly proud reading that. Thank you. Theres still a lot of work to be done, but when it finished, you'll be one of the first to know :D
We all realize coding MUST be first...
And that great graphics is just icing...
But, we do need something, visual, to be as some sort of
a goal to strive for...
Invitro- the pic looks great,
and no this isnt going to fall apart in the next few weeks
we already talked alot in project requests and decided it
was time to get to programming...
if its lasted this far, it can last a lot longer...
Ok that sounds good.. well, if you guys let me know what you need (email me or post) I can start on it right away. Graphics, bars characters.. whatever.
I can even come up with a general visual idea for the game, but I'll need some help.
ok... we need a website, so maybe more people will
wanna join, so like characters and a general idea, ill help
you with any of it just ask...
oh and what program do you use to make stuff like that?
I use adobe Photoshop with Eye Candy plug-in.
The only tool you need... there are others, but were not going to do any 3d stuff.
Ok, I need a list of some kind... what characters we using, is it just the normal zelda stuff?
Have you guys thought about copyright stuff?... name wise.
And whos going to make the site? :)
I'm just the graphics dude ;)
We will almost certinly change the name. I belive it was just a temporary name anyways.
Here is the current list of stuff that we plan on having in the :
Customize clothing (buy?)
Multiple Classes
Multiple Skins
Multiple Genders (M/F)
Many different Items and Item Types and Item Classes
Truly unique items (1/server)
Most areas closed to PVP combat
Areas with harder enemies and better drops open to PVP
EXP amount based on damage done (if one player does 90% damage, that player gets 90% of the exp, and the like)
Different Kingdoms (may cause wars between players, and the like)
May be part of different kingdoms
Healing by potions, food, or a stay at an inn.
Jobs – Give bonuses
Marriages – Gives both players the benefits of each of their jobs, and they share everything that can be shared (gold, storage space, characters, est.)
Death – Lose gold at low-level areas, exp and gold at higher-level areas (items perhaps)
Kingdoms have levels; players give kingdoms percentages of their EXP gain
Monsters respawn after a period of time (will we still reset the servers?)
Some base quests, admen add more in
Allow players to buy horses and wagons. The horses will allow for faster movement, but can’t hold as much. The wagons reduce movement speed, but can hold more.
Other then that, we don't know for sure. It should give a slight list. I belive we were also planning on starting out with a general class, then as you play, you develope more skills, and become spielcelised.
Graphics (some may change, many more will be added):
Horses
Wagons
Kingdom Signs (don’t know what for sure)
Terrain (grass, water, river banks, sand, est.; any terrain reasonable for a MMORPG)
Some basic weapons (swords, maces, pole arms [syces], daggers, staffs, wands, bows, crossbows)
A (some) basic shield(s)
A simple class (for now just a pleasant)
if you don't mind me making a suggestion, and i havn't read all related threads so perhaps it's came up...
http://sourceforge.net/ offers free hosting,CVS, mailing lists, bug tracking, forums, task management etc for open source projects. No offense but you seem fairly disorganized for a big project like this, and sourceforge will facilitate communication, job assignment, bug tracking, testing, and most importantly code management and version control.
Assuming, of course, this project is intended to be open source.
I'm interested in the project and may be able to help in the future, but can't commit to anything right now. I saw a mention of the need for a web developer, that's my fuerte.
-Rob
I woulden't mind doing web stuff but I'm getting sick of it... I do to much web already... so im out for the web, but I will do the graphics work for the web as well... and maybe help with some web stuff :)
I looked over the rules, looks good... 1 problem... what if someone takes a unique item and never playes again... nobody else will have the chance of getitng it.
I can take over web with your guys help...
check out my web(in my sig) and let me know if you
want me too take over the web part (temporarily of course :))
About some one quitting, maybe just after a few weeks of inactivity, they are deleted and then the item is replaced??? I dont know something like that
Since people can get married, it would make sense that they could buy a house. If they can buy houses, it would make sense that, when a player is not connected, they are still in the world, be it in a house, Inn, or just laying around. If this is the case, their items could be stolen. Perhaps, as the length of inactivity increases, the amount of defense against robbery decreases. So, a player that has been offline for 2 months would have a very low defense against thieves, while one that has been offline for a week would not be very vulnerable. Characters in Inns get a bonus to this defense, though it costs money every day they stay there, and houses give the best defense, though they are probably expensive(you could also tax house owners).
Z.
Z. u seem to be on top of it :)
Thats actually a good idea... we can have the character playing when the player isen't.
LOL, yeah good idea...
I think we need to start having live chats or something...
U guys have ICQ?
my uin is 802604, add me and we can chat
mines 124764683 ... I got an out dated version of icq, how do i get the updated version?
How do u add people.?.. My thing has a problem with adding people... I have to search for them, and then add them...
And i cant even search it messes up with an error number...
Has been for several months now..
i can never get ICQ to work, and I would never be on it anyways. This is accully better, as you can then look back on stuff from eriler (god damn spelling).
I like the idea with the players staying in the world. I think that the chance of getting robbed shouldn't go up for a week, and after four months, if some1 trys it works. And also, if someone is attempting to rob you, and you come online, they should fail, and they should be punished somehow (kinda like in real life, where coming online is waking up).
Heres what I put in the rules file I have:
May be robbed while offline; chance of success increases after 1 week; 100% chance after 4 months; if you wake up (come online) during the robbing, it fails and the person attempting the robbing gets punished; inns decrease chance of success, but cost $/day; houses decrease it more, but cost lots of $ to buy, and get taxed $/month.
Let me know of any changes that we can debate for around 50 posts:rolleyes:.
nothing I can think of right now so....
BTW: Isnt this supposed to go under rules?
AND>>>>-------------
Is everyone ok with me doing the website until someone else voluteers to be full time webmaster or something?
Wasn't GuyBrush gonna do it (look under the origal communations thread).