ok that was a bit harsh for you
how about:
Environment is information.
information flow control, interfaces
NotLKH
Quote:
Originally posted by NotLKH
In agreement, but just one Small point.
The use of the words "Direct contact" in relation to "consciousness" and "environment" is impossible, since one is Physical, and the other is, at least as far as I can tell, Non-Physical. There Must be an Interface to allow interaction and interpretation. Hence, senses and sense organs.
So, at best, in either direction, there can only be InDirect contact between the two.
Point taken into account. My explanation is:
Even though you won't ever know how exactly the original data looks like the outcome (the interpreted information) is a function of it's source, which may or may not contain transformators, my point is that these will be taken into account in evaluating information as a function. So as Q=IC and I=T(x), then Q=T(x)C where x is environmental data and T() the overall tranformation x is encountering. In Control Enginering you use the Laplace transformed functions to obtain an algebraic expression for the time dependent transformation, but until we take into account time derivatives we won't do that. To keep it simple Q=IC considering I a layer for T(x) we replace T(x) with a mathematical model that produces the same output.
Quote:
Also, is it too bold of me to say that in the real, physical world, there is no such thing as information?
Engineers always work with information flow, to produce mathematical models. Next you can argue which is more real, information or physical reality. The answer is that information represents their physical equivalents, even if there is no physical world present, just the information you recieve and send.
Quote:
It seems to me that new information is the product of a resident
consciousness analyzing the interpreted information passed to it thru interfacial channels derived from outside the consciousness.
That is what I have decided to call intelligence.
Re: information flow control, interfaces
Quote:
Originally posted by kedaman
NotLKH
...
That is what I have decided to call intelligence.
Hmm.
Perhaps there is No such thing as "Intelligence"?
"Intelligence" seems to be more of a Judgement of how "Effective"
an Entity one has chosen to call "Conscious" has processed externally derived data into "Rational Information".
So, "Intelligence" seems to require at least 3 people. 2 to form a majority judgement of what "Rational Information" is, and then a Third, to feed data to, and to Judge.
{People is being used generically to represent a group of "Conciousnesses" that can intercommunicate with each other.}
:D
Transporation of information
Quote:
Originally posted by NotLKH
Hmm.
Perhaps there is No such thing as "Intelligence"?
"Intelligence" seems to be more of a Judgement of how "Effective"
an Entity one has chosen to call "Conscious" has processed externally derived data into "Rational Information".
So, "Intelligence" seems to require at least 3 people. 2 to form a majority judgement of what "Rational Information" is, and then a Third, to feed data to, and to Judge.
Let's say we could perform this frictionless, with something like mind reading, you transfer information without any transformation. Ideally this would be analoguous with supraconduction. Would that make your intelligence unlimited?
Re: Transporation of information
Quote:
Originally posted by kedaman
Let's say we could perform this frictionless, with something like mind reading, you transfer information without any transformation. Ideally this would be analoguous with supraconduction. Would that make your intelligence unlimited?
Now what we're getting into, is Information = Knowledge?
I'll get back to that in a minute.
First, let me Disagree with/Qualify myself.
A single conciousness CAN self-evaluate the analysis its
performed on the data its received. It can determine how
effective it has processed the data into "Knowledge", thru
observation of how well external events conform to Expectations
developed from what it thinks is "Effective Rational Information",
or "Knowledge". So, in effect, it can Determine how "Intelligent"
its self is.
But this rating is more of a "How Satisfied" it is with the comparison of Its Expectations vrs Actual Results, and the being can only see if its Less Intelligent than it wants to be.
So, As used in the above statement, "Knowledge" is "Effective
Rational Infromation", ie.. If the "Rational Information" Generates
a Thought Process that effectively produces expected results,
then the conciousness has "Knowledge" of something.
And, Needless to say, From a Group Perspective, "Intelligence" is
a judgement on the "Knowledge" of a Conciousness, thru
Observation of its interactions with the world, and/or thru
intercommunication, after having passed to it some "Data" to
process.
But, lets assume this "Frictionless" Information gathering. It
seems to me this would be similar to "Rote Memorization", So,
even though it now has "New Information", has it
actually "Processed" it into "Effective Rational Information"?
It might allow the Concious Entity to be observed to react to
Stimuli "Intelligently", But, {shudder, don't say it lou!!!} this kind
of reaction, similar to "Rote Memorization", might be more akin
to "Instinctual Response", reacting properly, but based more on a
general feeling of "this is what needs to be done now", then as a
calculated response.
So, I think, in your thought experiment, "Intelligence" doesn't
necessarily increase thru this "Frictionless" gathering, although
you would still get the desired response.
Let me think on that some more.
Re: Re: Transporation of information
Quote:
Originally posted by NotLKH
But, lets assume this "Frictionless" Information gathering. It
seems to me this would be similar to "Rote Memorization", So,
even though it now has "New Information", has it
actually "Processed" it into "Effective Rational Information"?
It might allow the Concious Entity to be observed to react to
Stimuli "Intelligently", But, {shudder, don't say it lou!!!} this kind
of reaction, similar to "Rote Memorization", might be more akin
to "Instinctual Response", reacting properly, but based more on a
general feeling of "this is what needs to be done now", then as a
calculated response.
So, I think, in your thought experiment, "Intelligence" doesn't
necessarily increase thru this "Frictionless" gathering, although
you would still get the desired response.
Let me think on that some more.
OK. Thought a little more.
I think you're right!:D
IF, as I previously stated, thru this "Frictionless" process, the Conscious entity does indeed react more instinctively with this "New Infromation" than as a "Calculated Response", that represents the Ultimate in "Knowledge". That is what Every individual desires to acheive as they go thru an Educational Process. What better way to perform is there, if their "Knowledge" has become so Ingrained, there is no effort whatsoever in Using this knowledge.
Reacting properly thru Instinct vrs "Calculated Response" maximizes efficiency and Does, indeed, display that a conciousness has attained "High Intelligence".
So, It seems that Any who Downgrades "Instinct" as being an
undesirable trait of a lower form of conciousness are misled.
Hmmm.
-Lou
Re: Re: Transporation of information
Quote:
Originally posted by NotLKH
[B]
Now what we're getting into, is Information = Knowledge?
I'll get back to that in a minute.
First, let me Disagree with/Qualify myself.
You don't have to disagree, we're completely considering your argument, and also your definition of knowledge.
Quote:
A single conciousness CAN self-evaluate the analysis its
performed on the data its received. It can determine how
effective it has processed the data into "Knowledge", thru
observation of how well external events conform to Expectations
developed from what it thinks is "Effective Rational Information",
or "Knowledge". So, in effect, it can Determine how "Intelligent"
its self is.
Are you suggesting verification trough consistensy over time? What abour a blind man, is he intelligent just because he sees black all the time and consider himself being intelligent just because he can see black all the time?
Quote:
But this rating is more of a "How Satisfied" it is with the comparison of Its Expectations vrs Actual Results, and the being can only see if its Less Intelligent than it wants to be.
Do you suggest intelligence is proportional to happiness? Pretty stupid to be unlucky?
Quote:
And, Needless to say, From a Group Perspective, "Intelligence" is
a judgement on the "Knowledge" of a Conciousness
Your definition of knowledge contains parameterized efficiency, introducing a group would cause unmeasurable complexity wouldn't it?
Quote:
, thru
Observation of its interactions with the world, and/or thru
intercommunication, after having passed to it some "Data" to
process.
Considering the unmeasurable distortion of information how are you suppose to calculate with intercommunication?
Quote:
But, lets assume this "Frictionless" Information gathering. It
seems to me this would be similar to "Rote Memorization", So,
even though it now has "New Information", has it
actually "Processed" it into "Effective Rational Information"?
Processing? Now you're having information distortion, parameterized efficiency, groups trough intercommunication, you've opened a 5000 piece puzzle here, can you get the pieces together?
Quote:
So, I think, in your thought experiment, "Intelligence" doesn't
necessarily increase thru this "Frictionless" gathering, although
you would still get the desired response.
I'm just helping you think, thanks for your input :)
Re: Re: Re: Transporation of information
Quote:
Originally posted by kedaman
You don't have to disagree, we're completely considering your argument, and also your definition of knowledge.
The "Group" Perspective, and My disagreement with Myself, derives from the post I placed before this post you commented on. I think you missed some of its points.
Anyways, In and Of itself, a Blind Conciousness, without any other Conciosness around to inform him of anything, can only judge itself as "Intelligent". It cannot rate itself as "How Intelligent", because that would require an External Comparison, ie.. He would have to be One of a Group of Conciousnesses that can Intercommunicate, in order to determine "How intelligent" he is.
An Individual Conciousness can only rate its "Intelligence" by a "Satisfied/Dissatisfied" rating, since there is no "Other" conciousnesses around for comparison. In this Non-Group Example.
After all, wouldn't you agree that a conciousness, that belongs to no group {By which I mean there is no other Conciousness that it can detect either directly or indirectly that it associates itself with, {which, communication is the best and most effective way of judging a beings "Conciousness"}}
MUST be considered The ultimate Intelligence of its Set?
Of course, We can't consider that, because if we're around to actually "consider" anything, means that no such lone individual conciousness exists that we know of.
{heh, Knowledge of a condition destroys said condition. Interesting...}
{'Course, Heisenburgs principle involved}
-Lou
