1. How?
2. You're comparing an entire religion to one person?
3. Oh? Got a quote?
4. So have all the Palestinans running around cheering in the streets
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1. How?
2. You're comparing an entire religion to one person?
3. Oh? Got a quote?
4. So have all the Palestinans running around cheering in the streets
No. I am comparing one person to US.
Palestinans should be doing that because America is supporting the bloody attacks on Palestinans, and America is also providing Israel weapons to attack on them.
You understand that when it happens to you what is happening to all the Palestinans right now.
The two countries have been acting like little violent kids forever. May I remind you that it was a Serbian dude that effectively started World War I that led to World War II.
Of course you can provide a quote from a US government official who speaks for the US public that supports that claim right?Quote:
Originally posted by abdul
Nothing can be impossible. Simply, US said that nobody can attack on it in what so ever way.
Nobody has ever made this allegation. You can say things like "Nobody attacks the US and gets away with it," but you can't say "The US is invincible to all concievable occurances."Quote:
US thought that nobody will ever be able to attack on it *IN WHAT SO EVER WAY*
Your opinions of what is and is not concrete evidence are neither credible nor of any concern to me.Quote:
All of the above points should be made clear with some kind of concrete proof.
1. The CIA isn't stupid. They know the names of people who work with Bin Laden and similar groups.
2. No. I am saying that terrorist groups that subscribe to this religion have conducted their operations in a fashion similar to that which we saw last week.
3. Sigh, I'll look for it in a bit.
4. Palestinians have neither the resolve nor resources to take on something like this.
Firstly, Palestine is not and has never been an autonomous nation. Second, Israel is defending itself from the same terrorism that you saw in New York every single day. The difference is that Israel kills terrorists, Palestinians kill women and children.Quote:
The two countries have been acting like little violent kids forever
Er, for the sake of honest reporting I'm going to stick my hand up on this one.Quote:
Originally posted by nishantp
It couldnt happen like that Ghost Ryder...Cause the US has satellites that can track radio-activity, thus detecting the Uranium needed in A-bombs. Its very hard to move them without the US knowing al about it.
Almost all items on earth give of radiocativity. A satelite that would track such items would be impractical (Would you belive that Aberdeen is highly radiocative). You really want plutonium for bombs, and it's surprisingly abundant on the planet.
I just thought I'd set the record straight from someone who knows this stuff....
SD
Even former President Clinton was after bin Laden:Quote:
Originally posted by abdul
I believe that the sky is blue, and the grass is green because I have seen them. But I have not yet gotten any proof about Osama's involvment in those attacks.
AGAIN, A TRUE PROOF IS NEEDED!
http://www.msnbc.com/news/628739.asp
So Bush is not going into this and pointing his finger at the first
Joe that comes along. bin Laden is a known terrorist.
So are you saying that only the hijackers should be punished for
this? It's a little too late for that.
Aknisley
The hijackers, and their associates, have been linked directly to Osama Bin Laden's group.
This, on it's own, is not proof of Bin Laden's involvement.
The incident follows the patten of Islamic generally, and specifically Bin Laden's, previous terror attacks.
This is purely circumstancial.
Bin Laden was reported to have informed Arabic newspapers of the impending attack four weeks ago.
No more than heresay. More substanciation is required.
Bin Laden has publically denied his involvement in, but also condoned, the attack.
He denied it. So it doesn't matter that he condoned it; would you expect otherwise?
I'm not saying that it wasn't him but we shouldn't ever jump to conclusions. Even the USA are only saying that he is the prime suspect. They do not yet have conclusive proof (although that probably won't stop them going in and kicking a** anyway).
I just hope that America makes an effort to keep the majority of the Islamic world on it's side. The last thing we want is for them all to unite against America (and NATO).
This, on it's own, is not proof of Bin Laden's involvement.
It's incredibly strong evidence when grouped with the other facts.
This is purely circumstancial.
Even so.
No more than heresay. More substanciation is required.
Required for what? A trial? There will be no extradition or trial.
He denied it. So it doesn't matter that he condoned it; would you expect otherwise?
I honestly don't trust terrorists. If a terrorist says something, I tend to think the other way.
Jump to what conclusions? He's already guilty of mass-murder on numerous other events.Quote:
I'm not saying that it wasn't him but we shouldn't ever jump to conclusions.
There's very little the Government of the United States of America is saying to the television in comparison with what they know and think.Quote:
the USA are only saying that he is the prime suspect.
OK, that may be true. Does this mean then that the USA will go after every known terrorist? Will they invade every country that has ever sponsored terrorism?Quote:
Jump to what conclusions? He's already guilty of mass-murder on numerous other events.
It seems to me that the USA may not care about evidence. They may just rush in and, like a bull in a china shop, they will not consider who's being trampled on.
They may. Sometimes you don't realize that there is a problem until you get a piece of it yourself, then you understand what's been happening to other people.Quote:
Does this mean then that the USA will go after every known terrorist?
I heard a statistic on this subject the other day: more than 10 times as many US civilians were killed in the WTC attack in a little over 1 hour than Palestinians have been killed in the entire Middle East conflict. How accurate that statement was I cannot vouch for, but it is fair to say that this has been much more devastating in terms of loss of human life than the situation in Palestine.Quote:
Palestinans should be doing that because America is supporting the bloody attacks on Palestinans, and America is also providing Israel weapons to attack on them.
You understand that when it happens to you what is happening to all the Palestinans right now.
But then, you probably see that as a good thing. Do you ever consider human issues and set aside Islamic issues? Or are human issues irrelevant when religion is involved? Is religion more important than human suffering?
'True Islam'? You think the Taleban represent 'true Islam'? I think perhaps Kovan would have something to say about that.Quote:
Non of the muslim countries are united and they also also against Afghanistan(TRUE ISLAM).If Afghanis don't get any neuclear weapon then they can't get rid of America. You can also see that Pakistan is now going on the side of America to fight "true Islam"(***** Musharaf)
I have often heard the virtues of tolerance expressed in quotes from the Koran. I remember there were specific passages which said something to the effect of 'let each person choose their own religion - just because someone is not a muslim it doesn't mean you should persecute them'. Under the Taleban's laws, any Afghan that converts to a non-Islamic religion is considered a criminal and sentenced to death. Where is the tolerance the Koran preaches? How can you possibly interpret the Taleban's laws as 'truly' Islamic?
Sorry to say aknisely but there is some circumstantial evidence for an involvement of bin Laden that is all.
After the bombing of the US-embacies there has been an attempt to kill bin Laden and to destroy his training camps. 70 cruise missiles have been fired into Afghanistan. This happened in 1998 Did this prevent the attack on the WTC?
It is political and sustainde action that will end terrorism. If bin Laden can be proven the mind behind the 911-attack he must be caught. Cruise missiles can't do that.
The kind of hard talk - and soon action - of Mr. Bush will worsen the problem. Much like anything Ariel Sharon did worsened the problem in Israel.
I posted on this in
this thread too - click on the link in my last post for a good article in Far Eastern Economic Review.
Then propose another possibility. Who better fits the facts than Bin Laden?Quote:
Sorry to say aknisely but there is some circumstantial evidence for an involvement of bin Laden that is all.
Quite obviously not, since Bin Laden didn't die in those attacks.Quote:
This happened in 1998 Did this prevent the attack on the WTC?
Could you have done better? When people refuse to listen to reason, what more can you do? When people make agreements, then immediately break them, how do you deal with them? If people want to kill you and your family and everyone in your country because they think you're ruining the land, what do you do?Quote:
Much like anything Ariel Sharon did worsened the problem in Israel.
Bit tricky - it would involve them invading themselves in retaliation for their long-term support, including financial support, for the IRA while they were busy bombing the **** out of us. :pQuote:
Originally posted by simonm
Will they invade every country that has ever sponsored terrorism?
Agreed. It's all very well going in there guns blazing but it's not going to solve the problem long term on it's own. The relationships between Islamic countries and western countries must be worked on to achieve a greater level of understanding between all.Quote:
The kind of hard talk - and soon action - of Mr. Bush will worsen the problem. Much like anything Ariel Sharon did worsened the problem in Israel.
Just storming in and killing all the terrorists will leave nothing other than bitter resentment in those that they leave behind.
Aknisely
I think that a problem here is that you (perhaps) and others in Israel do not make the distinction between those who want to make peace and those that don't.Quote:
When people refuse to listen to reason, what more can you do? When people make agreements, then immediately break them, how do you deal with them? If people want to kill you and your family and everyone in your country because they think you're ruining the land, what do you do?
If the Palestinians make an agreement and then an extremist faction comes along and breaks it, does that mean that all palestinians are untrustworthy? The extremists don't want peace and by allowing them to break the agreements between Israel and Palestine, you are allowing them to dictate the agenda.
Do you not think it is part of Bin Laden's plan (if he was guilty) to enrage America so much that it carelessly attacked Islamic countries in such a way that it causes them to unite in an anti-american front and carry out the holy war (that Bin Laden has demonstrated so many times in the past is what he wants)?
He wants Islam to unite against America and that is just what might happen if America don't take care to keep the current global coalition together.
I totally agree with Simon here (is this a first? :)), it is vitally important that this anti-terrorism coalition (or whatever you want to call it) doesn't stir up a feeling among the Islamic nations that it is making anti-Islamic attacks. This is one of the reasons I thought it was so inappropriate that Bush quoted Psalms at his initial speech.
Making this into a holy war is a very bad idea indeed. I have to say I was very glad to see that the Pakistani government has taken a fairly neutral standpoint in this situation. If they had backed Afghanistan (and it's still possible they might) it would have caused a lot of trouble I think, with consequences reaching further than just Pakistan and Afghanistan, into other Islamic nations.
Of course not. Likewise, we aren't holding Palestinians accountable for the terorrism of the extremist groups. Unfortunately, the extremist groups are the only organized (term used very lightly) group of people with whom we are to deal with. They are the ones who made the Oslo accords, and they were the ones that broke them. They will now suffer the consequences.Quote:
f the Palestinians make an agreement and then an extremist faction comes along and breaks it, does that mean that all palestinians are untrustworthy?
We aren't allowing them to break the agreements. We have not, are not, and will never tolerate terrorism against the state of Israel. If you commit terrorism against Israel, you will die. And that's just the way it is.Quote:
The extremists don't want peace and by allowing them to break the agreements between Israel and Palestine, you are allowing them to dictate the agenda.
Aknisely: Well actually yes I think I could have done better. A lot of people could and would have done better. There are a lot of Israeli politicians too that could and would have done better and I hope some day soon they will get the possibility to do so.
As for broken agreements: agreements have been and are being broken by both sides every and each day!
To make sure I do not side with Palestinian terrorists. Nor with any terrorists. But I cannot side with Israel if it acts the way it does either. If it was not for the US government Israel had been condemned by the UNO more than once. And there were more than only the usual suspects to vote for this. Guess why?
Again: military action will not and CAN NOT end a problem like this. For every terrorist killed three will step up. This will continue as long as they have support in their home country. This support can not be broken by any army but only multiplied.
Israel is a rich country. The only truly developed country in the region. By helping its neighbours to develop too it can help itself. By fighting its neighbors (and especially the closest ones) it only fights itself.
regards,
Helger
By Tamim Ansary, an Afghan-American
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would
mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else
can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues
being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though
I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where
I'm standing.
I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt
in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York.
I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban
and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over
Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When
you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And
when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity.
They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats
nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A
few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled
orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in
mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban. We come now to the question of
bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done.
The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles
of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all
that.
New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least
get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat,
only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe
the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping
bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true
fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with
ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to
be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as
needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on
the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die
fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much
bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have
to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by?
You see where I'm going.
We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what:
that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did
this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a
billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a
billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win,
whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden
does. Anyone else?
Tamim Ansary
Simonm, thank you for posting this.
The American public is now, unfortunately, aware of the fact that the true Afgahnistan government is not the Taliban and are saddened by the losses the Afgahni people have suffered at their hands. We are also aware that if we are to root out the terrorist network a ground assault is necessary. Many more lives will be lost but if we do not make this attempt, many generations of lives will still hang in the balance.:(
Explain precisely how you would deal with terrorists who decide to bomb buses and throw stones at children.Quote:
There are a lot of Israeli politicians too that could and would have done better
There is no one more dangerous than he who is not afraid to die, and there's very little you can do other than make them die where there are no bombs or children or elderly women involved.
I don't understand. Palestinians who signed agreements break them, that invalidates the agreement. It shows that they are not willing to follow the terms of the agreement, and they wouldn't mind if Israel does so as well.Quote:
As for broken agreements: agreements have been and are being broken by both sides every and each day!
Israel has no choice but to kill the terrorists.
How is Israel acting that is improper? Would the United States not kill the terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center? Would Iraq or Afghanistan not kill terrorists?Quote:
But I cannot side with Israel if it acts the way it does either.
It's impossible to understand the middle east conflict if you haven't been there. You don't understand what it's like to live in fear each and every day.Quote:
If it was not for the US government Israel had been condemned by the UNO more than once.
And for this, we are hated by our neighbours. We offer them shelter, food, water, schools, money. They don't want any of our Jewish medicine or food. If they do not want to bring themselves out of their medieval society, then that's that. We'll always offer our love and support to Islam; the door is always open, we are all human beings. Take it or leave it.Quote:
Israel is a rich country. The only truly developed country in the region.
But when you kill our citizens, when you invade our land, when you bomb our schools and hospitals, we will act. We will be better than you, however, because we will not target your children or your women. We do not kill people. We kill terrorists.
aknisely
You're perception of the Israel/Palestine problem is so black and white in your eyes, isn't it? Don't you see that you're no better than Kovan when you refuse to concede a single evil done by your own side and only see the evil done against you?
I am Jewish and have been to Israel on several occaisions but I think it is important to take a neutral view on the situation. The Israelis and the Palestinians are too close; they can't see the wood for the trees. It sometimes takes outsiders, people looking from the outside in, to see what's really going on.Quote:
It's impossible to understand the middle east conflict if you haven't been there. You don't understand what it's like to live in fear each and every day.
all i got to say on this issue is
IF use kills innocent muslims
the anti terrorism coalition will be broken
and muslims will no longer support it
where they will form an anti-US coalition
and there goes world war III
its just as simple as that
right now you have umm let say 500 bombers
well, that will reach to 500, 000, 000
so lets all hope we dont see more innocent people die
you know,
Saddamn Hussein gave some words.. maybe Bush should at least consider them.... "US must not use military action, they must use their brains...."
or something along those lines
yes saddam is backing the taliban
that itself should be enough to start world war 3
If World War 3 will start against IRAQ (and some other middle eastern countries, where Afghanistan might not be one of them), I am afraid it will be one way street.
Also, Saddam could be as much involved as bin Laden.
What I think will happen is that US will try to disable countries that are finacing bin Laden (regardless how much money he has)
do you mean Saddam wont have a chance to press his nuclear war head button?Quote:
might not be one of them), I am afraid it will be one way street.
Also, Saddam could be as much involved as bin Laden.
doesnt matter where its directed at (US is to far probably for his target, so Israel is bye bye to the sea, taking a LOT of innocents)
all he wants to do is press the button, and no longer it will be one way
lets all hope everything is all and good
no wars
i personally dont want to be a history as being victim of a war
Israel is too close to Iraq. So it will be more like bye bye Israel and Iraq and some other countries. And also in my opinion I dont think Sadam has any nukes.
oh believe me he does
i am sure he bought some from the black market
maybe not as big ones as US has
but hes got something
neverless, lets hope they dont go shooting in the air
Yes I hope not. But still there is no proof that he does have them.
I dont think its going to be a nuclear war anyway.
well he used gas bombs on us in 1988, killed antyhing in sight
so does he REALLY need nukes to start a war?
i was there, i BARELY escaped the gas bombs in 1988
so one of those with greater mass will take out the mediterianian countries
I understand your desire to "level the playing field," or make it look less one-sided, but I honestly can't understand why you think that there's anything that Israel has done that any other nation wouldn't have done in its place.Quote:
You're perception of the Israel/Palestine problem is so black and white in your eyes, isn't it? Don't you see that you're no better than Kovan when you refuse to concede a single evil done by your own side and only see the evil done against you?
Then do tell what is really going on. When I was there a few years ago, three Israeli buses blew up over the course of a month killing almost a hundred innocent people. How many Palestinian buses with innocent people exploded during that time? None.Quote:
It sometimes takes outsiders, people looking from the outside in, to see what's really going on.
Kovan,
You've stated before that this is precisely what Iraq should do.Quote:
(US is to far probably for his target, so Israel is bye bye to the sea, taking a LOT of innocents)
its not what Iraq SHOULD DO
its what IRAQ WILL do when you piss it off too much
Israel doesn't fear Iraq. Iraq is nothing.
Aknisely
The sad thing is, I can't think of any other country that would have done better than Israel in it's place. It is an impossible situation.Quote:
I understand your desire to "level the playing field," or make it look less one-sided, but I honestly can't understand why you think that there's anything that Israel has done that any other nation wouldn't have done in its place.
But, that does not mean that we cannot learn from the mistakes that have been made (on both sides) and to realise the failed strategies.
Israel has failed to ensure peace in the region and the USA has failed to be an effective mediator for peace talks. This is too tall a task for Israel to sort out on it's own. America is to pro Israel to be trusted by the Palestinians so I believe a new coalition of countries should be brought together to mediate the situation (and possibly intervene if the situation continues to deteriate).
Kovan
Do you not think that Israel has nuclear weapons? Is Sadam Hussain really that stupid that he would nuke Israel knowing full well that Iraq would be also nuked?Quote:
do you mean Saddam wont have a chance to press his nuclear war head button?
doesnt matter where its directed at (US is to far probably for his target, so Israel is bye bye to the sea, taking a LOT of innocents)
if you ask me
i believe every "country" has nuking capabilities
yes i think he is that stupid to start a nuclear war
as i have seen many other stupid things he has done
what makes you think he wont press it?
and as for people bombing iraqi
he doesnt give as much **** about jews, and the rest of the world as he does with his own people
so he wont care what they do to "iraq"
i was refering to if it comes to world war 3
he is not to pleased with jews
if he takes anyone before he goes down
my personal opinion is that it will be the jews
now will he really do it, thats a question of how much brain he has
hey he launched few missles in gulf war at israel
what makes you think the next ones wont be gas? or nuclear
wasnt gulf war was suppose to cripple saddam?
only innocent people died
he is capable of what he was and more without MUCH Damage done to what he really cares about
neverless, who ever launches the first nuclear war head, will take the rest of the world with their target (including their own country)
thats my opinion
Wow, Kovan replies and the whole thread goes silent.
We're learning all that we can, and trying to improve the situation as best we can, but there's only so much we can do. The proverbial ball is in the Palestinian's court, and if they refuse to co-operate, then there's nothing that can be done.Quote:
But, that does not mean that we cannot learn from the mistakes that have been made (on both sides) and to realise the failed strategies.
Peace is a two-sided deal. We're being peaceful to their law-abiding citizens; they are not extending us the same respect. In essence, Israel is peaceful; the Palestinians are not.Quote:
Israel has failed to ensure peace in the region
America is pro-peace, not pro-Israel or anti-Palestinian. They do furnish funding for military support for Israel, but they realize that they have to maintain an objective position, and as far as I can tell, they've done the best they can in that respect. But again, there's only so much that America and Israel can do for the peace process; the Palestinians are the only party that are not willing to co-operate. I find that sad, but that's their choice.Quote:
America is to pro Israel to be trusted by the Palestinians
Because Israel will survive any attack, from anyone.Quote:
hey he launched few missles in gulf war at israel
what makes you think the next ones wont be gas? or nuclear
Haven't you learned anything from the history of Judaism? The Egyptians enslave us; we survive. The British crusade against us; we survive. Islam jihads us; we survive. The Turks persecute us; we survive. The Nazis exterminate us; we survive.
Saddam Hussein is no threat to Israel, nor to the world's Jewry. We will survive your folly. We are strong, and we go stronger with every obstacle.
No, the Gulf War was to keep Saddam where he belongs; out of Kuwait.Quote:
wasnt gulf war was suppose to cripple saddam?
Quote:
thats my opinion
why did the USA rush to kuwaits aid?? mmmmm lets think??Quote:
Originally posted by aknisely
Because Israel will survive any attack, from anyone.
No, the Gulf War was to keep Saddam where he belongs; out of Kuwait.
OH RIGHT
alot of the oil is there, and they couldnt lose that could they??
and yes, the jews will be around until the end, it says so in the Qu'ran, not sure where
bani-israel, the children of israel
and the jews survived all of those bevause allah was gracious to them and they were ungrateful so he punished them (the holocaust) but he has not willed their end until judgement day, so ur right akinsley
(btw, i dont know exactly where in the Qu'ran this is)