ps Doesnt Powerbuilder have per seat licence fees?
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ps Doesnt Powerbuilder have per seat licence fees?
My name is Mark Sreeves and I use VB
There, I've confessed to it now.
I also use several other languages in the course of my work as well however.
The first language I was taught at University was Modula 2 which I believe is very similar to Pascal.
Modula 2 was chosen as a first language because it forces good practices. It is very strongly typed and does not have GOTO so code has to be well structured and I think it is an ideal first language; strict not too cryptic.
Modula 2 used to be used (maybe it still is) in embedded systems a lot.
Quite amusing to read people slagging off the languages - I've used Pascal, BASIC (anyone actually remember what that stands for?!, clue: B=Beginners) C, C++, Lisp, xBase, PAL, Perl, Java, Rexx and a dozen others. They all have their own idiosyncracies and shortcomings but it is generally horses for courses.
Delphi is great to use, strongly typed and truly OO and has a better IDE than VB but the VCL can be leaky. C++ is just too much work. VB is fine but I wouldn't code an OS in it. It isn't OO and it is STILL interpreted.
For elegance and small programs, you can't beat C but it ain't exactly new and I'm probably just misty eyed over my first "Hello, World"
Cheers,
P.
Hi, I don't know about the licence but you're probably right, luckly I don't have to pay for it :pQuote:
Originally posted by beachbum
ps Doesnt Powerbuilder have per seat licence fees?
Feeling good, I'll be out before you know it!
hi again
I am also quite amused at the bagging of VB (lordly criminals excepted :p). surely it must be a form of ***** envy. when i first started programming u were lame if u didnt know assembly, then you were lame if u didnt know cobol etc etc etc... the other month i went to see my ISP about something on the website and he asked me what i had used for it... Frontpage i meekly responded... geeesh .. real webbers type in the html and asp directly... oh well.
I am off to the peat marshes to suck up some oil, which i will then refine to get my self built car ticking over. But i refuse to drive on those god damned infantile roads.
Beginners All-Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code ;)Quote:
Originally posted by paulw
I've used Pascal, BASIC (anyone actually remember what that stands for?!, clue: B=Beginners)
Oh, bah to the lot of you :p
I've written raw machine code on my ZX81, beat that!
Well, I use VB for probably 95% of the work I do. I taught myself VB as a business decision, not becuase it was easy.
I started with Ada (military language used for avionics packages, and probably the single most stable compiler written), and learnt Miranda (oh, the joys of recursion), assembler, Unix C, C++, Delphi, Perl and a few others for various things.
But I use VB in preference to the rest, cos I'm running a business, so I haveto make money. I would have been out of business years ago had I chose C++. I probably could have used Delphi, but Borland just don't provide the huge amount of technical data that Microsoft do.
That said, I certainly wouldn't advocate teaching VB, Delphi or even Java as a first language - its to easy to get distracted from the fundamentals of programming (go, Donald Knuth, go) by the pretty interfaces.
Putting a button on a form and showing a message box ins't programming. Neither is linking to a database using a data control - they are more pseudo-programming tasks.
Writing double linked lists, red black trees, quick sorts etc - that's real programming. But then, it would be much harder to make any money out of it if I had to code every form from scratch. I still refuse to use data controls though...
As a side note, remember: Real programmers don't eat quiche.
- gaffa
Well, i can beat you but only by 1!!!! ZX-80 :rolleyes: now there was a machine.. where did that keyword go...looking... looking...Quote:
Originally posted by Bonker Gudd
Oh, bah to the lot of you :p
I've written raw machine code on my ZX81, beat that!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gaffa
As a side note, remember: Real programmers don't eat quiche.
QUOTE]
Emmm egg and bacon pie is still okay, right? :eek:
Just, beachbum, just...
- gaffa
ARRGGH!!Quote:
Originally posted by gaffa
...Miranda...
Miranda!
I think you are only the 3rd person ever so utter that dreadful word on this forum!
Oh right, it's not just me then!Quote:
Originally posted by gaffa
I still refuse to use data controls though...
I NEVER use data controls. I prefer it if I have control over my data.
Ok
change of subject. I know it is not nice to laugh. I feel reaaaaalllly guilty....but here goes... I have seen this post about developing a MSN replacement program (like we need another one of them) but the cruel bit is that after 145 posts they still havent worked out how to stage the first meeting :rolleyes: i am soooo sorry... i couldnt help it but it cracked me up. :p
Miranda was the first language I ever used - I had only had a computer for a few months when I decided to transfer from an arts degree to a comp sci degree.
Had never heard of unix, let alone f****** vi editor. That was a very hard six months, but when I transferred again to a different uni and did ADA, I caned it - particularly when it came to recursion (somewhat unsurprisingly I guess)
Data controls are the spawn of the devil. My company has a policy of turning programmers who use data controls into eunuchs.
- gaffa
viQuote:
Originally posted by gaffa
let alone f****** vi editor...
luckily I managed to avoid using vi, the UNIX systems at university had Emacs as well.
I liked Emacs so much that I got hold of a DOS version and used to use it on my home PC. It was better than Edit because when I shelled out of my DOS Modula 2 compiler there wasn't enough memory left to run Edit but Emacs was fine.
There, you can all sleep easier now with that knowledge. :D
Beachbum,
What is it with people wanting to write instant messangers? I mean, the world has had instant messaging for years - it's called the telephone....
- gaffa
Excuse me? I might be in high school and have no real professional training, but I have customers for each of my two shareware programs.Quote:
Originally posted by ©¿©¬
beachbum,
I think you're forgetting that filburt1 is just a kid whose opinions account for very little.
He's not a professional programmer.
Quote:
Originally posted by filburt1
Excuse me? I might be in high school and have no real professional training, but I have customers for each of my two shareware programs.
I agree, pretty soon all you old people will die off and us "kids" will be the pros... i know that filburt knows quite a bit about programming, possibly more than you "professional" programmers.
Aw, thanks. I'd kiss you but I'm not gay. :D :D
lol, its true tho *cries because he thought arien would finally kiss him :D :P :D
I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but I doubt it.Quote:
possibly more than you "professional" programmers.
Pascal has its uses, and it's certainly a good place to learn procedural programming techniques. I don't actually like the syntax personally, but some do. I'd rather look at heiroglyphic-like languages such as C and C++. Turbo Pascal was used quite extensively before Windows reared its ugly head, and was favoured by many for writing games in due to its speed and efficiency. Many still choose Delphi over C++ for games writing.
I don't really use VB any more except for when I want to help someone out or I just want to test out some quick algorithm. I started using it because that's what I was taught.
I agree. I'd put him up against any of you pros. (well except a few:D ).Quote:
Originally posted by filburt1
Excuse me? I might be in high school and have no real professional training, but I have customers for each of my two shareware programs.
yeah, i bet he has ANSWERED questions for just about every one of you......
Albeit incorrectly. :D :D
My school teaches vb,C++, and html(well thats not really a language ;) ) but no one else's school teaches C++? :confused:
html is definitely a language!
Hypertext Markup Language... hmm I think that's a language :rolleyes:
Mine does, but only two years of it. And HTML is a language, but not a programming language.Quote:
Originally posted by ¤¿¤
My school teaches vb,C++, and html(well thats not really a language ;) ) but no one else's school teaches C++? :confused:
my school does too
HTML is a programming language, because it consists of instructionsQuote:
Originally posted by filburt1
Mine does, but only two years of it. And HTML is a language, but not a programming language.
some of you people are pissing me off!
i see you here everyday, posting/answering questions, trying to bump you freaking post count by any chance, and when you're asked 'why you use VB' you starting act like you're freaking geniuses - 'i hate VB, VB is for kids, fock VB, etc...'
what the f_uck is that?
i use VB everyday, and that's how i make my living... i love that language, i'm saying it's the best - but i have tried other ones and VB fits my needs completely.
and for those of you that think that VB is stoopid, kid's language - get your stinky arses out of this forum, you bunch of loosers.
You either probably read the book 'Teach yourself VB in 24 hours' and you think you know VB?
VB is a very powerful language, and i'm not talking about the graphics and s*hit, i'm talking about professional applications development like COM, COM+ and stuff like that.
you can build a DLL in a few minutes, try doing COM in C++ you'll have to spend twice as much time, because you have to do everything manually...
most of you kids aren't probably old enough to understand the real power of VB...
Feel better now? :)
i agree w/ schizo in everything but the end, kids can realize the potential and the uses of programming languages. There are tons of people on these forums that are under 18, that are very intelligent. I know a lot of VB and a little C (and i know html), and most people i know consider me very smart with computers and computer programming. I don't think that the under 18 people here should get made fun of and called script kiddies and sh*t because some of us can program then a lot of you. I understand that we are not "professionals" (unless you use the real definition which means getting paid for the thing u do... then a lot of us are) does not mean that we are not good. I would love to be considered a professional, but i have been turned down time after time by companies when i asked for training and a job, and by local colleges when i have asked if i could get into a course so i could learn more. I have tried to get Microsoft and A+ certified, but again was turned down because of my age. My dad will soon be studying to become microsoft certified, and hes doing some research now to find out about what he will need to know. I know that he asks me questions often because he knows that i know a lot about computers (though a lot of my knowledge is from him). Same with my school teachers, my teachers ask me to make programs for them to attempt to teach some people in classes, and also rely on me to fix computers (our "IT" staff is not too good). I have been told by one of the people that run one of the computer labs that i am good enough to get her job. I have worked hard to gain trust from my school and local businesses, which is hard to do once again because of my age. I will not be called a script kiddie or anything like that because you can't stand the fact that some "kids" are as good or better than you at something you do to make a living.
Quote:
Originally posted by kedaman
HTML is a programming language, because it consists of instructions
Quote:
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=programming+language&r=67
An artificial language used to write instructions that can be translated into machine language and then executed by a computer.
It is irritating that "kids" (I'm almost 17, so I'm starting to dislike that name :D) are considered crappy programmers. I got a commendation letter from my last boss cc'ed to me, and I was (almost) 16 at the time. I can understand that there is a disrespect for really young programmers who just copy and paste, but when you create and distribute useful productive programs, that makes you feel good.Quote:
Originally posted by Skitchen8
i agree w/ schizo in everything but the end, kids can realize the potential and the uses of programming languages. There are tons of people on these forums that are under 18, that are very intelligent. I know a lot of VB and a little C (and i know html), and most people i know consider me very smart with computers and computer programming. I don't think that the under 18 people here should get made fun of and called script kiddies and sh*t because some of us can program then a lot of you. I understand that we are not "professionals" (unless you use the real definition which means getting paid for the thing u do... then a lot of us are) does not mean that we are not good. I would love to be considered a professional, but i have been turned down time after time by companies when i asked for training and a job, and by local colleges when i have asked if i could get into a course so i could learn more. I have tried to get Microsoft and A+ certified, but again was turned down because of my age. My dad will soon be studying to become microsoft certified, and hes doing some research now to find out about what he will need to know. I know that he asks me questions often because he knows that i know a lot about computers (though a lot of my knowledge is from him). Same with my school teachers, my teachers ask me to make programs for them to attempt to teach some people in classes, and also rely on me to fix computers (our "IT" staff is not too good). I have been told by one of the people that run one of the computer labs that i am good enough to get her job. I have worked hard to gain trust from my school and local businesses, which is hard to do once again because of my age. I will not be called a script kiddie or anything like that because you can't stand the fact that some "kids" are as good or better than you at something you do to make a living.
I have gotten more than one e-mail from a Tiny Clock user just thanking me for the program. That makes me feel awesome! (http://www.liquid2k.com/filburt1/tinyclock/awards.html) My favorite one: ""I wanted to thank you for placing your Tiny Clock on Go.com. I used Windows 3.1 for five years with a clock with seconds, and now that I have Windows 98, I missed the seconds. Thank you for Tiny Clock!"—Jean Vanadeer"
I was 15 when I wrote Tiny Clock.
Children, children, children. You need to watch your language and your pronouncements.
1. For all those unaware of recent history (the past 30 years worth anyway) Pascal was originally written as a language to teach structured programming. The fact that it was useful in some actual working (read: profitable) enterprises was not anticipated.
2. Basic encouraged spaghetti code in much the same manner that FORTRAN, COBOL, and Assembler encouraged the same style. It was taught in the same manner (once again, a lifetime ago). To say that Basic is to blame for the coding sins of your fathers is to blame the victim. I've been using Basic (in various incarnations) since the late '70s and I DO NOT write spagetti code. Even BEFORE basic had callable subroutines.
3. C (the antecedant of A and B, the predecessor of C+ and C++) was designed to do systems level work on the machine itself that the older languages couldn't do because of limitations in accessing the operating system(s). Thus, the lack of overt support for I/O. That was supposed to be implemented by the HighPriests of the whatever machine/OS you were using. It was NOT meant to take the place of FORTRAN, COBOL or Basic, it was meant to take the place of Assembler in systems level work.
ah screw the dictionary! :p actually I disagree with it, every language that consists of a set of intructions is a programming language, literarily, independent from compiler, the ability to compile, execution and ability to execute. Say for instance the turing machine is a theoretical programming languageQuote:
Originally posted by filburt1
So why not teach a language that other people would actually use, like C++ or Java?Quote:
1. For all those unaware of recent history (the past 30 years worth anyway) Pascal was originally written as a language to teach structured programming. The fact that it was useful in some actual working (read: profitable) enterprises was not anticipated.
My code never violates my Pet Peeves (search the board), and arguably, my pet peeves state good programming practices.Quote:
2. Basic encouraged spaghetti code in much the same manner that FORTRAN, COBOL, and Assembler encouraged the same style. It was taught in the same manner (once again, a lifetime ago). To say that Basic is to blame for the coding sins of your fathers is to blame the victim. I've been using Basic (in various incarnations) since the late '70s and I DO NOT write spagetti code. Even BEFORE basic had callable subroutines.
It did that and so much more. Nearly every major Windows application is now written in C++Quote:
3. C (the antecedant of A and B, the predecessor of C+ and C++) was designed to do systems level work on the machine itself that the older languages couldn't do because of limitations in accessing the operating system(s). Thus, the lack of overt support for I/O. That was supposed to be implemented by the HighPriests of the whatever machine/OS you were using. It was NOT meant to take the place of FORTRAN, COBOL or Basic, it was meant to take the place of Assembler in systems level work.
Actually, to be completely technical, QBasic would not be considered a programming language by Dictionary.com; rather, a scripting language. The biggie is that programming languages are compiled while scripting languages are interpreted.Quote:
Originally posted by kedaman
ah screw the dictionary! :p actually I disagree with it, every language that consists of a set of intructions is a programming language, literarily, independent from compiler, the ability to compile, execution and ability to execute. Say for instance the turing machine is a theoretical programming language
Noone couldn't say QBasic can't be compiled