Israel?

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Originally Posted by wes4dbt

I do hope for some relief for the Palestinians.

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That's all you hope for?

No! Israel needs to be de-fanged so it can never do this kind of thing ever again. The stakeholders who are pushing this genocide need to be brought to justice and, when found guilty for their war crimes, punished as harshly as international law would allow. There should then be some kind of plan to give meaningful compensation to the Palestinians for all that they have suffered at the hands of Israel since its founding. It can be in the form of some kind of relief fund, or perhaps give them back all the land illegally stolen by Israel. Whatever it is, it has to be something meaningful and not some kind of empty token gesture.

I know none of this will ever happen, but that is what I hope for.

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That is why, coming full circle, I think the best long term solution for peace is for Hamas to release the hostages.

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I don't think they should. I wouldn't. I wouldn't give Israel a damn thing until someone gets prosecuted and punished for war crimes. Israel shouldn't be allowed to get away with these atrocities they're committing, nor any they have committed in the past. The reason Israel keeps doing this is because they keep getting away with it. A line needs to be drawn.

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I didn’t realize this until today but Hamas also agreed to resolve power and turn it over to a new government formed by Palestine. This actually accomplishes both of Israel’s stated goals of getting all hostages and getting rid of Hamas.

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Unfortunately, I don't think this will stop anything. I believe it's very clear by now what Benjamin Netanyahu's true goals are. He wants the Palestinians gone, and he doesn't care how. If they won't flee, he will kill them all. I believe this is why he is committing the genocide in the first place. I think Israel has always coveted the Palestinian lands, but Classical imperialism has long fallen out of favor in the 21st century. In today's world, conquest demands subtlety; now you need a pretext, and the events of Oct 7 provided the perfect pretext for this genocide.

If Hamas switches gears and gives Israel what they are asking for, I strongly believe Israel will also change gears. They will spin up another narrative and use that as a pretext, and the genocide will continue.

Netanyahu wants to stay in power so he can delay the prosecution against him. To do that, he requires the support of groups that very much want to wipe out the Palestinians (though getting them all to leave would probably be acceptable to them).

I agree that there should be prosecutions for war crimes that certainly seem pretty evident, but this isn't one sided. Hamas did launch an attack on Israel that killed a large number of civilians. They would have done more had they the opportunity, and stated that repeatedly. The only reason there hasn't been a bloodbath on both sides is because one side is too weak to accomplish the goal they have repeatedly stated.

Also, reparations for the Palestinians is probably not really viable, since the reparations they want would be the elimination of Israel. Would they settle for something less? Possibly, but it would be decidedly less, so they might not go for it.

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I agree that there should be prosecutions for war crimes that certainly seem pretty evident, but this isn't one sided. Hamas did launch an attack on Israel that killed a large number of civilians. They would have done more had they the opportunity, and stated that repeatedly. The only reason there hasn't been a bloodbath on both sides is because one side is too weak to accomplish the goal they have repeatedly stated.

Also, reparations for the Palestinians is probably not really viable, since the reparations they want would be the elimination of Israel. Would they settle for something less? Possibly, but it would be decidedly less, so they might not go for it.

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Do you think Hamas represents what the vast major of Palestinians want? Because it seems the vast majority of Palestinians being killed are just civilians and not Hamas.

Not asking that as an argument, I really don't know. Though after what Israel has done to the Palestinians in the last two years, I could see that as a prevailing attitude.

I don't know, either. Hamas won an election in Gaza...a long time back. What do people think now, either about them or in general, I can't say. I'm sure they have no love for Israel at this point. They probably never did. The whole area could be called the State of Grievance...for as long as we have recorded history.

Is there any patch of land in the world that has been more soaked with blood than that area (Jordan River to the sea, roughly)?

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Is there any patch of land in the world that has been more soaked with blood than that area (Jordan River to the sea, roughly)?

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Probably not.

Europe, Asia and Africa have seen plenty of bloodshed but nothing comparable. Though I don't really know much about the time between the end of the Holy Wars and the establishment of Israel.

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Though I don't really know much about the time between the end of the Holy Wars and the establishment of Israel.

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Broadly peaceful. During the renaissance the Middle East was viewed as a centre of knowledge and actually looked up to. I don't think Western purges like the inquisitions ever reached the area and I'm not aware of any Islamic purges (e.g. intefadas, fatwas etc) in that time. I can't think of any major state wars either. For most of the period the area was ruled over by the Ottoman Empire so peace was kind of enforced. Troubles really started again when the Ottoman Empire started to decline pre WW1 and post WW1.

Anyway, big news is that a peace deal has been agreed between Israel and Hamas. I'm cautiously optimistic with two large caveats (and a whole bunch of smaller ones). 1. The hostages haven't actually been returned yet, though I think Hamas are genuine in their intention to. 2. It remains to be seen if Israel will actually stop the attacks once the hostages are returned - I'm less optimistic about that. After that I've got a whole bunch of concerns around whether it will actually hold long term but, let's hope.

And I'll give props to Trump on this. It seems like, for the first time, a US president actually put pressure on Netanyahu after the attack on Qatar which brought him to the table. Biden could have done that and didn't. I think talk about him deserving a Nobel peace prize is bone headed but he does appear to have achieved something positive in this case.

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Broadly peaceful. During the renaissance the Middle East was viewed as a centre of knowledge and actually looked up to. I don't think Western purges like the inquisitions ever reached the area and I'm not aware of any Islamic purges (e.g. intefadas, fatwas etc) in that time. I can't think of any major state wars either. For most of the period the area was ruled over by the Ottoman Empire so peace was kind of enforced. Troubles really started again when the Ottoman Empire started to decline pre WW1 and post WW1.

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That probably why you do hear much about that period. Not a lot of documentaries about long periods of peace.

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Anyway, big news is that a peace deal has been agreed between Israel and Hamas. I'm cautiously optimistic with two large caveats (and a whole bunch of smaller ones). 1. The hostages haven't actually been returned yet, though I think Hamas are genuine in their intention to. 2. It remains to be seen if Israel will actually stop the attacks once the hostages are returned - I'm less optimistic about that. After that I've got a whole bunch of concerns around whether it will actually hold long term but, let's hope.

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That's about how I feel. Maybe even a little less doubtful of a long term peace in the region. If Israel doesn't break it then considering what they've done the last couple of years to that entire region, the need for revenge can only be contained for so long. At least that's been the normal for the last 75 years.

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And I'll give props to Trump on this. It seems like, for the first time, a US president actually put pressure on Netanyahu after the attack on Qatar which brought him to the table. Biden could have done that and didn't. I think talk about him deserving a Nobel peace prize is bone headed but he does appear to have achieved something positive in this case.

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I'd say it has a lot to do with, right place/right time. It's only been recently that support for Israel here in the US decline enough to make it politically possible to pressure Netanyahu. Up to recently if you were against what Israel was doing in Gaza, you were labeled an antisemite.

Well, no Nobel peace prizethis year for Captain Chaos.

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I didn’t realize this until today but Hamas also agreed to resolve power and turn it over to a new government formed by Palestine. This actually accomplishes both of Israel’s stated goals of getting all hostages and getting rid of Hamas.

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I read that too. That surprised me. This was just reported.

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Reuters obtained video showing Hamas-run police standing guard on a street in Gaza City yesterday, with one of its members saying that “interior (ministry) forces” were deploying “across the Gaza Strip.”

“The biggest deployment is in the intersections and markets, for the security of citizens, so that the grieving people feel that there is law,” the officer said in the video.

Another officer said “the people welcomed this deployment very much and came to greet us and tell us to stand by them.”

Hamas dismissed yesterday's BBC report that claimed the militant group had deployed 7,000 security forces to reassert control over areas of Gaza recently vacated by Israeli troops, calling the report "false."

NBC News was unable to independently verify the BBC’s report.

Israeli troops pulled back from Gaza City following the announcement of a ceasefire on Friday. The agreement keeps the Israeli military out of urban areas, but they maintain control of roughly half the enclave.

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Hamas is still very active in Gaza. We'll have to wait and see if they actually give up control.

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I'd say it has a lot to do with, right place/right time.

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I think there's a lot of truth in that but, at the same time, being in the right place at the right time still requires one to act. Trump actually did - or at least, he appears to have applied pressure to Netanyahu. If that's contributed towards a peace deal, I'll give him credit.

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We'll have to wait and see if they actually give up control.

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Yeah, I guess I'd describe myself as sceptically optimistic. I'm feeling the same about Netanyahu actually seeing it through and not just continuing to occupy the strip. I haven't seen anything in the peace plan that addresses the illegal settlements in the West Bank so I don't feel like we're actually seeing much of a reciprocation from Israel and that could be a problem going forward.

I'm also crossing my fingers that Trump will stay committed to the process long enough to see it through. He hasn't had a good track record on that - he tends to chase an announcement and then lose interest. And I feel like putting Blair in charge of overseeing things is uncomfortable. I'm not sure if you guys see him the same as we do but it was him that followed Bush into Iraq so we've always thought he was an odd character to use as an envoy to the Middle East.

Hard to say what the truth is but the reality is that Israel got it's hostages back and now have resumed killing Palestinians.

https://www.npr.org/2025/10/19/nx-s1...sefire-in-gaza

Life is very cheap to the Israeli's now a days. Well, Palestinians lives at least.

I'll be curious to see if there is much push back from the Israeli people against the murdering going on in Gaza now that they have the hostages back. Also, wonder how the rest of the world responds. I doubt the US will have the courage to do more than just wag their finger and say "naughty, naughty".