Printable View
If your not taking sides then why did you call it "Trumpatize" when I mentioned him my post about the current Israeli actions in Gaza?Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
I'm against what Israel is doing in Gaza. Yes I am "anti antisemitism" but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their current actions.
Biden didn't talk about kicking the Palestinians out and turning Gaza into a resort. That was what my comment was regarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by sapator
I did not mention you in particular where did I do that? You are just the biased and that if fine. I'm not talking sides since my last post with relevance to the confrontation was months ago so I'm not participating.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
And on "Biden didn't talk about kicking the Palestinians out and turning Gaza into a resort." Talk is cheap the practice is the exact same like Biden, do nothing and protest. So it does not make sense to "Trumpatize" but since I disturbed the water I'll let you go in with the rampage. Sorry for the intrusion.
"blazed", "rampage", "Trumpized" lolQuote:
Originally Posted by sapator
What this has to do with anything?
I remember a while back when Ty said things are going to get worse for the Palestinians now that Trump was president. SH said, how could it get worse. Which I tended to agree with.
https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news...121218784.html
Now I'm starting to feel Ty might be right. The murdering of Palestinians continues and the food/medical/housing has gotten worse. I don't blame Trump anymore than I did Biden. Both have chose to turn a blind eye to the situation. Then again, who hasn't? Other than a, shame on you and let's sent aid, Israel has been given the freedom to do what ever they want to the Palestinians.
At least Biden never proposed turning Gaza into a resort. I believe, minus the experiments, the Israelis are topping what the Germans did to them. "Never Forget" turned into "Never forget as long as it isn't us". I can't think of anything so horrendous against a people in decades north of the equator. And the US is complicit.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
That's going a bit too far. They are being uncaring in their violence, but they haven't reached the level of systematic execution. Although, I would say that some of the people on the right wing of Netanyahu's coalition certainly sound like they'd be willing to go there.
I really respect your posts but, BS!...deliberately starving people, eliminating medical help, denying basic survival? The aren't lining them up and shooting them in front of pits, but, the streets, hospitals, and evacuation routes suffice for them. Same death pits , no burning... They are slaughtering a people to clear them off the land. You do see that right? They are deliberately starving children for payback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
UN warns 14,000 babies could die in Gaza in next 48 hours without aid.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/li...e-news-updates
Revenge is a ***** but payback is a .....
Yeah, I agree that it's terrible. I agree with almost all of that, but what the Nazis did was a level beyond even that. What we are seeing here is a careless, self-interested, violence focused on gaining some land without regard for those who live there. History has plenty of examples of that kind of warfare, especially in that particularly blood-soaked corner of the world. The Nazis did some of that as well, in eastern Europe. What they did to certain other groups, including the Jews, was a level beyond that. Israeli right wing actors want that land. They'd like it cleared, and they don't seem to care how it ends up being cleared, but it is the land they want. They are indifferent to the people on it. The Nazis wanted the people dead, they were relatively indifferent to whether or not there was land involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
The Nazis just plain wanted them dead and didn't care about their land. I agree with that. The Israelis want the land and want them dead as long as they are on it. I think that is splitting hairs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
I realize I'm simplifying complicated world events. But the Israelis are being as cruel as any other peoples that have inflicted such punishment on others. With our help...
After 75+ years of fighting I'm not sure there isn't a significant portion of Israelis that have reach a point of complete dehumanization of anyone in that area that isn't Israeli. Any of them they kill is automatically justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker
Maybe the same can be said about the rest of the world. Because they are openly killing innocents and no one has really done anything. In fact we supply them with weapons. I think this is what I find the most shocking.
I like seeing some outrage, too bad not from the US...
Israel’s Allies Condemn Expansion of Gaza War
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/20/w...offensive.htmlQuote:
Britain, France and Canada called the Israeli plans for escalation “disproportionate” and “egregious” at a time when the U.N. is warning the population is at risk of famine.
That seems sort of worthless. Israel doesn't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
Lets see some meaningful sanctions. Boots on the ground would be great but I can't see that happening.
Yeah, it's splitting hairs for either of us to be arguing about the level of despicableness a despicable act is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
That '+' is doing a whole lot of work on that 75. If you read the Old Testament, that's pretty much how Moses led the Jews back to Israel from Egypt. Thou shalt not kill did not apply to anybody who was not part of the tribes. For those people, extermination and conquest was the rule. Of course, it wasn't the rule for the Jews, it was the rule for everybody in the region.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I agree with both of you. It's nice to finally see some outrage but I don't imagine it's going to make any difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
I think the only country that could make a difference is the US and I'm not sure even you guys could. Netenyahu sees the war as a means to hold on to power and doesn't give much of a damn about what the effects are beyond that.
I think my criticisms of Israel's policy on Gaza are justified and many people agree. I'm a little unnerved though because of the DC murder of the Israeli couple. I would hate that my criticism helps fuel behavior like that. In the end I don't think I can stop a nut like that and there is a need to voice to leaders discontent. But I can see negative criticism being fuel for bad behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyDexter
I think that kind of thinking's a trap. I may disagree with you on the occasional nuance but I think criticism of Israel's actions is entirely valid and I think your criticisms have been entirely reasonable. No matter what you say there is always a chance that some kook will glom on and carry out some act you never intended - that's not on you and should not prevent you from making the criticism in the first place. If you'd issued a direct call to violence then you might share some responsibility but I don't think anything you've said has come close to that bar (at least, not on this forum).Quote:
I would hate that my criticism helps fuel behavior like that.
That said, I do think we all could be a little more careful about how we express ourselves, particularly on written media like the internet where it's difficult to express tone. It's quite easy to write something meant as a joke and have it taken all too seriously.
CNN news has shown their priorities...less than a dozen people burned by a lunatic and it is 24/7 coverage; while thousands of children are being deliberately starved to death EVERY SINGLE DAY and barely a peep! Go America!
I'm not making light of the tragedy and pain caused...my comment is about CNN's priorities.
The BBC is leading with "Doctor describes 'total carnage' as 27 reported killed by Israeli fire at Gaza aid centre".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cvg5vyp33j1t
Something new and bizarre is going to get the lions share of the news. Israel murdering the Palestinians isn't new.Quote:
Originally Posted by TysonLPrice
It's strange how any push back against what Israel is doing is somehow framed as antisemitism. When it's not that at all. I'm not talking about terrorist acts, like this latest attack, I'm talking about peaceful protests or public denunciation.
For such a small number of Americans they certainly seem to have a large amount of political influence.
A lot more than the Ukrainians have...Quote:
For such a small number of Americans they certainly seem to have a large amount of political influence.
Just an update.
The US support of Israel hasn't diminished. It seems to be stronger than ever. Now we are attacking people outside the US that point out the crimes being committed in Gaza by Israel.
https://www.npr.org/2025/07/10/g-s1-...or-abuses-gaza
Here in the US there is a strong effort by the Trump administration to label anyone who speaks in support of protecting the Palestinians as an antisemite.
Not our finest hour.
I came across this video this morning which, I think, gives a pretty balanced view of how Israel's politics have evolved over the last twenty years or so and how they've ended up in a far right position being led by characters who were previously banned as terrorists. It's quite an interesting watch if you've got a spare half hour.
I think one particularly interesting take away is how much of an aberration the current situation actually is. There have been tensions and sporadic conflict in the region for centuries but the wholesale abandonment of any attempt to find a peaceful solution and the advocation for literal ethnic cleansing is new.
Is it really new? If your going to talk about centuries and the region in general, I'd say it's not new.Quote:
I think one particularly interesting take away is how much of an aberration the current situation actually is. There have been tensions and sporadic conflict in the region for centuries but the wholesale abandonment of any attempt to find a peaceful solution and the advocation for literal ethnic cleansing is new.
With the long history of violence, everyone one on all sides have had harm done to someone they care about. So the acceptance of violent acts from the general population isn't surprising.
The current situation in Gaza is a massive escalation by Israel. The western powers have made Israel the overwhelming military force in the region, they have also turned a blind eye to their terrorist acts and expansionism in the past. Israel has decided to push these behaviors to the limits and more. So far the western countries have decided to basically show there are no limits. An occasional "shame on you", then "here are some weapons".
The tensions certainly aren't new and there's been a long term perpetration and acceptance of sporadic violence by both sides.Quote:
Is it really new? If your going to talk about centuries and the region in general, I'd say it's not new.
The point was that the massive escalation (arguably to the point of genocide) by Israel is new. I think a lot of people think that both sides have been trying to genocide each other constantly for centuries but that's not really accurate (well, arguably Hamas has been trying to genocide Israel but it was never credible s a threat). It would be more accurate to say the area has seen periods of outright war at the State level and lower level political violence interspersed some genuine efforts for peace. But the ethnic cleansing and/or genocide we're seeing from Israel over the last couple of years is an aberration.
Bombing Qatar is new.
Yeah. I'm still trying to process the Quatar thing. I feel like that could lead to some really nasty backlash but I'm struggling to think how it would play out.
If that causes other countries to reject the Abraham Accords, that would cause Trump to lose it, since that was his big achievement of his first term. What that would mean is hard to say.
Israel's attacks in several countries in the middle east in the last year does seem reckless at best. It is hard to understand.
I think it's reached a point where it's just hypocritical to call this the Israel-Gaza war or Israel-Palestine war. This is clearly an Israeli invasion, with mass murder as a result.
Getting the hostages released would be great but I'm doubtful that will lead to long term peace in Gaza. The biggest pushback, by the Israeli people, to the genocide of the Palestinians by the Government/military was because of the hostages. Once the hostages are released I have no faith in Netanyahu continuing the peace.Quote:
It might still be a bit early, but it looks as if Hamas has agreed to release the remaining hostages.
Here is a pretty short read about the what's in the peace plan. https://apnews.com/article/gaza-isra...215850b454f601
I'll give it @ a 50/50 chance of happening. In other words, I have no idea.
One thing I noticed was there is no responsibility placed on Israel to help rebuilt Gaza, at least to the point where Palestinians have adequate food/shelter/infrastructure.
About his only support is the US. He probably wouldn't have to provide much of a justification for breaking the peace for him to keep that. US politicians seem very afraid to be anti Israel.
My concerns are for the Palestinian people, definitely not Hamas. The words moral and Netanyahu are strangers.Quote:
Yeah, I'm not saying the move is risk free on the part of Hamas, but I do think it is the moral decision and strategically the best decision for them long-term.
If Israel continued this campaign after hostages are released, remember the stated goal of Netanyahu and the Likud party is to completely eliminate Hamas, then I think at that point it would be a bridge too far. Enough people in power (in the US) would start to distance themselves.
As soon as you start to see even a minority turn against unconditionally supporting Israel, then at that point Israel has lost.
I'm just not sure what Israel could do that would give our politicians the courage to turn against Israel. Israel has killed over 65K Palestinians, most innocents, bombed Gaza to rubble, starved them. That hasn't been enough to lose US support.
I hope your right.
Why would you expect the US to stop supporting Israel?Quote:
Originally Posted by wes4dbt
Some polling suggests that under 50 in both parties have turned STRONGLY away from Israel. Too much so, I'd say. I don't like what the government over there is doing, and I really don't like why they are doing it (for Netanyahu, it's to stay in power and out of prison, since his coalition is fragile and adamant that he continue the war).
After all, it's not like the Palestinian leadership is better. It's probably worse, it just lacks capability.
On the other hand, Israel's hard right and Hamas have traded back and forth as to who will sabotage any peace process. Neither one wants peace. They both want the utter annihilation of the other side, so one of the two always finds a way to undermine any nascent peace process. Who will it be this time, and how?
I find this such a strange position to take. This kind of thing is typical US foreign policy. This has always been US foreign policy. The US has been committing or have been complicit in countless atrocities since its founding. This is nothing new. The only reason anybody in the Western world knows about this genocide is because of social media. The only thing that has really changed is that the US and other great Western powers can no longer hide it as well as they could have when there was no internet and information was strictly controlled by a handful of large corporations.Quote:
It's more of a hope and a prayer on my side.
If this were the 90s, this genocide would have at most gotten a 2-minute segment on CNN before they moved on to more important matters like sports stats or celebrity gossip. They would have trivialized it into a non-issue for the parts of the world that relied on Western information channels like CNN to find out what is happening around the world.
I would never expect the US to stop supporting Israel unless someone can figure out how to make it hurt the economic interests of the capitalists and government officials who are keeping the US involved. If it doesn't cost the US stakeholders more than they stand to benefit or are benefiting right now, then I'm sorry to say, the US will never stop supporting Israel, no matter how appalling the war crimes.
The US isn't moved by morality; it's moved by economics. This is how you get the US out, economic strategies, not moral arguments.
Certainly haven't announced that sentiment publicly.Quote:
Some polling suggests that under 50 in both parties have turned STRONGLY away from Israel.
Ah, but we wouldn't be supporting and sending weapons to the Palestinians if the roles were reversed.Quote:
After all, it's not like the Palestinian leadership is better. It's probably worse, it just lacks capability.
My guess is Israel. Hamas needs time to rebuild.Quote:
On the other hand, Israel's hard right and Hamas have traded back and forth as to who will sabotage any peace process. Neither one wants peace. They both want the utter annihilation of the other side, so one of the two always finds a way to undermine any nascent peace process. Who will it be this time, and how?
I have no delusions of permanent peace. I do hope for some relief for the Palestinians. Their current situation is a horror.