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I'm gonna work on much of the IDE as I can, and even though it will be far from complete, I will upload the source code this weekend to allow other team members to get a crack at it, and make improvements. I haven't been able to get on my fathers computer for the past couple of days (mainly cause of my brother playing those MMOFPS's for hours on end), which is where my LightFusion project is at. But I will try and get on tonight to work on it.
Jake. 2 things:
We still havn't decided to what we are translating LF into and we havn't made any progress on our list of rules.
We are gonna attempt to make the compiler and linker on our own (which will be later on), but if we fail and cannot do it, then we will try making a precompiler.
I have posted a thread over in the Assembly section on converting assembly to machine language, but got no replies yet.
Also, as for the list of rules, since you guys have more access to the computer than I do, due to my situation, the rest of the team is gonna have to add to the list of rules.
I really think a compiler and a linker is a little too much and will give us no room to speed things up. At least with an GNU assembler/linker all the hard work is done for us at great speeds AND
PS - Chem and I decided it would be better to temporarily remove him from the project until we get to the point of making the library functions. That way he won't feel over loaded (minishop. school, etc.)
You plan to temporarely remove penagate? He can temporarely not work on the library functions. Right now, we need to focus on three things. The IDE, the syntax, and the rules/features of LightFusion. Once we get a great deal done, then we can jump into the other things. Let's focus on this step by step.
PS: What is GNU?
GNU = GNU's Not Unix ;)
No I don't plan on removing penagate. He has offered tons of syntax suggestions and other help (including graphics).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Roman
Jake, I have been thinking about it, and I really think myself and/or penagate should do the IDE in VB6. We all know VB6 and only you know C++ (or at least I don't think penagate knows it). I know you have been working on it a lot, but it is easier to apply custom controls in VB (like tabbed code windows and an awesome text box control that our very own Joacim Andersson made (well not made, but extended).
This allows you to work on the syntax and compiler all the time instead of spreading youself thin. It also keeps me busy and I am sure I can delegate a good portion of the work to penagate and it will give him something to do also.
Please seriously consider this. I think it would be better for everyone.
http://www.gnu.org/
From their own page:
Quote:
The GNU Project was launched in 1984 to develop a complete UNIX like operating system which is free software: the GNU system, (GNU is a recursive acronym for “GNU's Not UNIX”; it is pronounced “guh-noo,” “noo” being like the American “new”). Variants of the GNU operating system, which use the kernel Linux, are now widely used; though these systems are often referred to as “Linux”, they are more accurately called GNU/Linux systems.
[...]
We support the FSF's mission to preserve, protect and promote the freedom to use, study, copy, modify, and redistribute computer software, and to defend the rights of Free Software users. We support the freedoms of speech, press, and association on the Internet, the right to use encryption software for private communication, and the right to write software unimpeded by private monopolies.
Thanks CornedBee. I didn't know that much about it. When I said GNU I was reffering to a free compiler/linker and I think GNU provides/makes those.
Yep, that's part of an operating system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
Actually I'm strong in VB, since I've been working with it for 9 years, and only have a little experience with C++, which is like 2 years, most of it being from Borland 8 years ago, till I gave up on it a year later cause it got too difficult for me. Then years later, I got into VC++ 5.0, then took a term of Intro to C in college, then obtained my free copy of VS.NET 2003 Professional Edition from the computer lab at my college, and got into C++ from that.
Thats fine, but I know NO C++ so I won't be able to help in anything written in that. Thats why I think I should do the IDE in VB with some help from penagate. Please consider it and get back to me.
I basically know C conceptually, and not very familiar at all with the OO extensions in C++. So no real practical experience with it, but I understand it so it's not hard for me at all. But, if you don't understand it, it's a bit daunting. Coming from VB makes it doubly hard as the two languages are not really on the same level, so you can't treat it as an equivalent. You need to fully understand how VB works inside out in order to apply any of that knowledge to working in C/C++, and even then there isn't a lot to be gained from it. If I was learning it all again I'd start with C and then a short shift to C++ instead of VB.
But, I'm not fussed how we do the IDE. I think the compiler is way more important. Unless Jake can split the work on that up, I'm not too sure how we can all contribute in that area.
I agree with CornedBee that the IDE isn't important at all right now, BUT there isn't anything for me to do until we decide what we are translating LF into and even then we can't write Library functions for a while.
The IDE is just something to keep me busy. I have made a really good start on it today so we will see how things go. I will post what I have made in a week or so. It looks really professional so far.
PS - Penagate, hows that logo coming? Or it coming at all? :)
Tell ya what, I'll write the IDE in C++ (source code to be uploaded this weekend although not done), and you write it in VB, and we will see which we will like better. I do agree that VB's version will be easier, but this is also a great learning experience for me in C++, and so far it's looking pretty sharp. I would love to have that object you plan on making, which is like a RichTextBox, only better.
As far as that code window I was making, Joacim Andersson has already made one (which he extended from a project that used to be open source). It has 1000 more features than I was going to add, but there are stioll a few that I would like to add.
The IDE looks awesome so far (in VB). I plan on using tabbed windows instead of MDI because in reality, I can't think of a time that I have ever used my windows side by side. Tabbed windows lets you maximize space and organize stuff easier.
Also, for VB there are a few add-ins that I am using to make the IDE look really professional. All the icons for menus and toolbars are XP/3D looking. I am going to post a thread in chit-chat to look for some people that would help me look for icons that match the set I already.
Like I said, in about a week I will post it. If you want to keep working on the IDE as a learning experience thats cool and if it turns out better then the VB version then we can use it.
Alright, kool. It'll be far from complete after I upload it, but it's a start, and it will allow others to continue working on it from where I left off, if they aren't gonna use VB of course like you and penagate, though I am gonna continue working on it as well. It's part of the team work.
Sorry EM, I can't think of any logo ideas at the moment :(
hi guys. I could help with parse code, also have syntax ideas which would reduce sourcecode whitespace.
Fire away :)
well two ideas for the c parser:
1. - instead of -
if ()
{
}
- one could say -
if ()
}
2. drop the requirement to put ; at end of the statements.
by default the parser could be this way, and to turn the functionality off, use some kind of in-code switch
You don't even need the } on the end. Do as Python, use indentation to tell what belongs to what. That FORCES the programmer to be nice and dandy when it comes to indentation.
- ØØ -
And that is different fromQuote:
Originally Posted by dafhi
if () {
}
how? Whitespace savings ~= 0
Not to mention that most modern text editors can highlight matching parenthese-like characters - but what if there is no matching pair?
I believe they already plan that, but that's practically no savings. Not to mention that being able to put more than one statement on one line can be an advantage in some cases. Whitespace savings = 0Quote:
2. drop the requirement to put ; at end of the statements.
Very bad idea. This means that a source file can be in more than one syntax, and you always have to check what mode the current source is in, so that you don't make syntax errors. Not to mention that these errors could be very obfuscated. Take a look at this hypothetical C++ code with your changes:Quote:
by default the parser could be this way, and to turn the functionality off, use some kind of in-code switch
This code can no longer reliably be top-down parsed. Just before reaching the second closing brace, this code could mean either of:Code:namespace freaky
void do_or_do_not()
}
}
Or (because ; is not required):Code:namespace funky {
void do_or_do_not() // Empty function definition.
{
} // Function end
// } yet to come
Code:namespace funky {
void do_or_do_not(); // Function declaration.
} // Namespace end
// Next } will be syntax error
And it wreaks havoc on code meaning if the programmer posts it here and forgets the code tags. I don't like indentation-dependent languages very much. Had a weird bug in Haskell with this once.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoteMe
Actually I plan on using {} as blocks for good reason, dafhi. Having a partial block () } is not good, as Cornedbee put it. { would indicate the beginning of a code block, and } would indicate the end of a code block. Having no beginning or end could confuse the compiler, and I don't want that.
Thanks for your suggestions dafhi, but as CornedBee pointed out, reducing white space is useless and actually a bad thing in most cases. Having more white space makes things readable. And the LENGTH of the source code doesn't matter at all (for the most part).Quote:
Originally Posted by dafhi
Ok guys. What font should I use for the IDE?
Microsoft Sans Serif - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?
Arial - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?
Tahoma - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?
Verdana - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?
As you can see verdana is what VBF uses, but I think Tahoma might be better for compactness.
What does VB6 and Visual Studio.NET use?
VB default is MS San Serif and I am fairly sure it uses that on the IDE itself also. I have no idea as far as VB.NET.
why dont have an option to change the fonts? default should be arial or tohoma
You should have an option to change the font. Let the font be independant from the functionality of the IDE. If you want to insert some fixed width font for formatting, the IDE should remember your choice for output. Rather than having to set properties, the IDE could just use the last selected settings.
Just a thought.
Thats fine. But I am reffering mostly to the controls. I don't really want to allow the changing of the font of EVERY control (menus, statusbar, buttons, command buttons, etc.) although that is a possibility. I guess my question is more to the effect of "What should the default font be. I can make things customizable later on.
The source editing window is already in courier new and that can be changed later on as well.
Tahoma is Windows standard.
Is it? I thought it was MS Sans Serif or something. I guess that looks about right. So should I use that for the default font for the IDE?
visual basic doesn't make you type
Sub MySub()
Begin Sub
End Sub
regarding the semicolon, i did not say require that the programmer DOESNT type it
MS Sans Serif is the default, but according to the "GUI Experience guidelines" (or whatever it's called) as of Win 2K to XP, Tahoma is the standard font. You'll find all the Microsoft apps use it. I don't think there should be an option to change it, only the code editor fonts. As I've said I always use Lucida Console as my fixed-width font, but fonts and colours in the editor should all be customisable (as they are in VS).
not sure if this has already been mentioned:
the IDE should include automatic indenting and possibly automatic code completion to make coding faster.
It will. Just wait and see. All the credit goes to Joacim Andersson though. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dafhi
We already worked out most of the syntax, dafhi, within this thread. Right now we are creating the IDE. Bear in mind, this isn't Visual Basic we are designing here. We are simplifying the syntax by fusing C++ with VB, with a twist of our own style. In VB, there were many problems with the syntax. Like for example, the If statements:
VB Code:
Now instead of using Then and 2 words End If, it could have been simplified to this:
Makes things easier, and faster that way. ;)Code:If a = 0 {
a += 2
}
$0.02:
1. I think the GUI should be the very last thing you do, use a commandline compiler while you are still designing. Once you are happy with your language syntax then you can write your GUi around it. Then you can even call your commandline compiler from the GUI saves you having to incorporate it into the GUI.
2. The font you use for your code should be a monospace font. This lets you align code more easily.
We have discussed this many times. The only reason we AREN'T doing this is because Jake is doing all the compiler work at the moment and I am doing the IDE because I have nothing better to be doing until we get a little way into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname
I was reffering to the font of the controls and such. I gues I will use Tahoma. Courier New will be the default for the code windows (with many options to change it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by wossname