you could always use LGPL, since it allows you to use the LGPL code alongside proprietary code.Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
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you could always use LGPL, since it allows you to use the LGPL code alongside proprietary code.Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
I'll look into that.
Could you define proprietary? What all would that include?
As far as the GPL is concerned, proprietary is any code that is under a more stringent license than the GPL itself.
CornedBee & tr33, I have looked into the LGPL and it looks like it is geared more towards libraries than to open source sofware+some propietary code.
Well, you could use the GPL with a few "special exceptions" for the proprietary libraries you link to.
CornedBee, I thought I read that any modifications to the license makes it no longer "the GPL" and isn't fully supported and what not. I will read it again though. Do you know of any licenses that directly allow for proprietary libraries along side open source code?
Penagate, can you read back to the last page and see my most recent suggestions for the logo? I think we are really close to getting a good one, then we can make a button/splash screen/etc.
Also, I wanted to let everyone know that our SourceForge project was approved and lightfusion.sourceforge.net is now ours (even though it is a blank directory). Jake & Penagate, I reccomend you guys sign up for a source forge account and I will add you to the project team part and you will have access to uploading stuff and a TON of other services.
Another issue with licensing: If we use the GPL then (as I understand it) any programs that are made and compiled in LightFusion must also be under the GPL. The Lesser GPL might be the way to go, because it allows users to make proprietary software if they chose. This is a decision we all need to make I guess: Do we want programs made by LightFusion to be under the GPL or to allow the user to decide what to do with them?
The GPL is pretty strict about leaving programs VERY open source (not just mostly) and I thinkt he Lesser GPL might be the way to go, but is geared mostly towards libraries. I'm not sure what license we should use.
Also, if Jake uses bison and flex then I think we have to release it under the GPL because I think those are GPL programs... I'm at a loss as to what we need to do.
Bison and Flex are examples of programs that use special exceptions. In particular, they explicitely exclude their runtime libraries and any code generated by them from the license.
Yes, it's no longer THE GPL. But it's close enough that people recognize and accept it.
Okay, I think I might just add my own exceptions that will end up having tons of legal loopholes in them. I sent an email to GNU about out situation (having a library, compiler and IDE that we want to license) and I hope to hear back from them soon.
Does anyone have any objections to me designing the webpage for our project?
eyeMonkey, add me to the project, usrname 'Datacide'
Datacide, congrats on 100 posts. I am fine with you designing the web page on 2 conditions. 1) You can put what you want on the page, but if I ask you to add or remove anything, then I would appriciate it being done 2) If I decide later that I want to take over the designing or assign it to someone else then I want you to be ok with that. If you are okay with those then feel free. I will add you to the projec tommorow (as web designer) and you can design lightfusion.sourceforge.net (not through your host please).
Isn't the solution simple - Release the compiler and linker under the GPL, then you have the use of Bison and Flex, and release the IDE separately under a different licence, so that you can use the CodeSense control (which I guess isn't open source). That also forces the IDE and compiler to be independent of each other, which can only be a good thing.
As usual I'll be back with more graphics :)
that sounds like a great idea. now you only have to work out what to licence the IDE under.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
LGPL on Wikipedia
OSI approved licences
I'm no legal expert but the GNU LGPL (Lesser General Public Licence) looks like it would accomodate the compiler/linker, despite its heavy focus on libraries. If not, then at least it would cover the standard library?
The LGPL no longer has a focus on libraries. Why you shouldn't use the LGPL for you next library.Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
I skimmed through it and it seemed every second word was "library"!
Because it was originally intended for libraries, thus Library General Public License. But by now it's called Lesser General Public License, and there are quite a few applications distributed under it.
I got that part, but just reading it it seems all to cover libraries only. And I did read the new version.
Wicked, I have no problem with that. Is the a chance I can join the developers team later on?Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
You might be able to joing the team later on, but it won't be for a long while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
I added you as a team member and gave you privleges to work on the website. Go in and see what you can do to lightfusion.sourceforge.net for us. I'd perfer if you use the logos made by pengate and if you made the background white (or light blue or something like that) instead of a dark color.
Also, do you know PHP? I was wondering if you could research on ways to access RSS feeds through PHP. I want to the news on our webpage to be linked with our RSS news. Look into doing it with PHP and look into RSS feeds if you don't know much about them.
Let me know if you have trouble accessing the web design aspects of the project.
Thanks for all your help!
I kill at PHP & SQL. I was making a layout with the logo's but it looks kinda grainy cuz I streched them.
Pen, is it posible for you to send me the psd files?
Awesome image in your signature. But you forgot the 'e' in sourceforge.net
Also, in the 'Lf' part on the left, the F should probably be capitalized since we spell is LightFusion. Other than that, that looks cool. Don't try to incorperate Penagates logos too soon, because he will be posting a new (and hopefully final) version soon.
Also incase you haven't already, you should read this and any other documentation about sourceforge hosting services: https://sourceforge.net/docman/displ...d=1&docid=4297
How do I access the server space on SourceForge? Is there an FTP server? what's the pass, etc?
PM me.
I edited my post above right before you posted that. Use that link.
Check it out, do you like the design so far?
...
*passes out*
WOW! Dude thats awesome. Do you do this professionally? Or is that a tempate? Or what? WOW! WOOOOOW! Thanks so much. Very glad to have you on-board.
A few comments:
Do you plan on removing the orange border around the bottom section?
You can remove the Newsletters part because I don't think we will ever actually do that. RSS feeds/News through SourceForge should be enough.
Could you change the font to Tahoma for most things (but not necissarily everything).
It looks like you hard code everything (from the look of the source). Is that the case? If so great work. I hard code all my websites as well. But none of them look that good! Great work!!
EDIT: Did you read the page I posted a few posts ago? Also could you change the "Downloads" link to "Downloads/Releases" Or just "Releases". Also could you add a title to the page (as in <title>) that is something like "LightFusion //Coding The Future.
One other thing. Could you edit the logo you are using for the top and capitalize "//Coding the future". Sorry, I am a bit of a prefectionist sometimes. No hurry on ANY of that though.
Everyone:
I am currently making the file format for the LightFusion project files (*.lfp). I was wondering what you guys think I should do concerning the positions of the windows. Visual Basic stores them in a seperate workspace file (.vbw). I don't see why we couldn't just store them in the project file. Are there any objections to that?
Actually window positions don't matter all that much for the current IDE setup because I force windows to be maximized all the time and make users use tabs to switch between windows. The IDE does let you tile/cascade windows, but they aren't moveable when they are in this state. I do this to try to remedy the problem that most MDI apps create (cluttered enviornment).
I still want to save information on window positions incase we decide to make windows moveable. I can also save things like what order the files are in on the tab bar, etc.
Penagate and Jake, you guys still need to sign up for a SourceForge account.
Jake, hows the computer coming along? You haven't posted in a while it seems. Does that mean your setting up your new computer as we speak (type)?
My Current To-Dos:
Figure out how to add exceptions to the GPL and then get out modified version approved by SourceForge.
Modify the IDE so it is centered around projects instead of individual files.
General IDE improvements.
I signed up yesterday.
Do you have PhotoImpact? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
Let's say I have a simple VB project.
How can I find out how to write it in LF?
...
Still think the IDE is important? ;)
What? Were you pointing out that we need to shift our focus for the moment?
Hey guys, just stopped in to say hello and see what the status of the project was? I really like Datasides logo for LF :thumb:
Why the sourceforge.net extension? Sorry but 750+ posts is too much to read. ;)
How about having the first post as the post with all the latest and greatest? Do you have any IDE screenies?
Because Sourceforge is a site that offers free services to open-source projects, like webspace, source control, download mirrors and bug tracking.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobDog888
Indeed you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
chem
why do you need to add exceptions to the GPL? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
will you be able to write a lightfusion program in notepad (or any text editor) without requiring the IDE?
eyeRmonkey, Do you have any content you want me to put up as of yet? At least something for the home page?
Also, did you recieve any info from SF about their donation feature? If so, do you want me to incorporate it into the site?
eyeRmonkey, SourceForge requires all pages to have it's logo on it, but I can't access the logos because it's only avail to the project admins. Can you grab the logos for me? It's in the Shell/DB/Web section of the admin pages.
Sounds good.Quote:
Originally Posted by chemicalNova
Because the GPL restricts me from adding proptietary DLLs to the project (and I need to use some because I don't have the source for them, but they are exteremly useful)Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
Yes. The IDE and compiler will be totally seperate.Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
Not really. If you could figure out how to tap into our RSS feed using PHP and put that ont he main page that would be awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
I don't have a paypal account set up and if we do start getting donations I want the account to be under mine or Jakes name so the answer to your question is no. Maybe we will set this up soon, but I dount anyone is going to be donating any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
I will try to do this later today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
Jake, where have you been? Your profile says your last activity was earlier today. Do you have an ETA on your computer yet?
Johnny English wants in on the project as well. He doesn't think it's fair that I'm the only team member working on the compiler and linker (2 of the hardest most difficult things to work on when making a language) while you guys only make IDE's, websites, and logos. So he's gonna work together with me on the compiler and linker.
Sorry I haven't been on the computer much. Been working overtime and got projects to work on at home such as my bedroom, bathroom, dining room, etc. What's an ETA? And how am I suppose to do that without a computer?
:lol: Estimated Time of ArrivalQuote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Roman
Does everyone like the site so far? (http://lightfusion.sf.net) Give me some feed back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
Sorry guys, but if this project is leading to an independent site, then the graphics and images will need to come off - that would make the graphics advertising for what is potentially a non-jupitermedia site.
Also - the larger graphics need to come out of the sigs.
Brad
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
Actually, I talked a bit with Joe (Jupitermedia Forum Manager). He is okay with the discussion continuing, etc.
My issue is with the larger graphics. Those need to be dropped. I'm okay with your smaller graphics, but the ones that get to be ad size we need to avoid.
edit: Clarification - I'm talking the logo graphics in sigs only, not screen shots or other graphics.
Thanks.
Brad!
Sorry for the problem brad. I understand though.
I assume that includes the image in my signature as well?
yeah, let's shrink them down a bit please. Anything much bigger than the below is going to catch my attention....
are the dll's for the IDE?Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
the site is looking great!Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
the names under the project members section should link to the SF.NET page for each member.
Looking good. A few things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
1) Could you remove the logo by penagate or make it blend into the rest of the bar on the left.
2) ChemicalNova is not a member of the project (although he probably will be later on) so you can remove him.
3) According to Jake, Johnny English is now on the project, but as far as I am concerned he is not until he starts posting regularly.
4) There is still not <title> tag in the header of the HTML document so the caption of the titlebar is still just the web address.
5) You should add a link somewhere that says "Development Discussion" that links to this thread.
6) You need to add an SourceForge logo somewhere.
Sorry about that. The banner is removed now.Quote:
Originally Posted by brad jones
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
I agree. They should link to the proper SF.NET pages for the member. I think the path is something like http://www.sourceforge.net/users/USER_NAMEQuote:
Originally Posted by tr333
if the DLL's are only for the IDE, then why not release the IDE under a different licence to the other stuff (as previously posted). This would allow you to keep the original GPL licence for the compiler/linker/etc.
I might do that. What license should I use then for the IDE?
eyeRmonkey, in your website there is a link for donation (well i was thinking on donating few bucks) then i got this massge after clicking this link
http://images.sourceforge.net/images...ct-support.jpg
Sorry, LightFusion does not accept donations. Please encourage the project admins to opt in to the donation feature
well i am encourage you guys to make a 'donation feature' :)
can't help you with that, since i don't know much about software licenses (except the GPL). it would depend on what license the DLL's are under.Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey
OSI approved licenses
Wize, Wow! Thanks a ton! That is awesome. Once we did set it up I was going to encourage people that even a dollar would help, so thanks. It would help right now since I am trying to buy ********** (Randem started charging for it) so we can have a nice install package.
I wanted the account to be under mine or Jake's name, but Datacide offered to open a paypal account for us and since there is interest in this I think I will have him do that.
Datacide, did you get my PM about the SourceForge Logos? Also, could you go ahead and set up that paypal account and send me a PM about how we can work out the details. Thanks.
The licenses are redistributable and that is about all that matters. I have already read a bunch of the OSI licenses and some are too short to cover enough and some are too long to read. I guess I will have to just make some more time for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tr333
Jake, can you post ANY and ALL syntax rules you have made? Wether they are hand written or slop-ily typed or whatever? Can you get them all into a .doc and post them?
I have decided to shift the focus back to syntax/planning instead of licensing and the IDE (even though I will continue to work on the IDE). Syntax is important at this point and Penagate had a good point when he said that it is more important to be able to explain to someone how to translate a project from VB to LF than it is to be doing other things.
I also want to add to the Ground Rules that we worked on somewhat before and need put some more time into.
Here is a list of the ones we decided on and below that is a list of the original ones posted by CornedBee that were used in developing C++.
Light Fusion Ground Rules for Development:
Aims:
• LightFusion will be easy to learn and will produce standard windows applications without lacking in speed of execution.
• LightFusion will make programming enjoyable for anyone who uses it.
• LightFusion will combine the popular features of languages such as Visual Basic and C++ and add features that seem to be lacking from those languages.
General Rules:
• Always make what the compiler is doing obvious to the programmer (through the syntax, documentation, features, etc) without confusing things too much.
• Don’t force the programmer.
• Every feature must have a reasonably obvious implementation.
Design Support Rules:
• Support composition of software from separately developed parts.
• Support common programmer styles.
• Support program organization and readability.
Language/Technical Rules:
• Use features/syntax from other languages unless there is a good reason not to.
• When in doubt, pick a solution that is easiest to teach and explains what the compiler is doing.
Original C++ Rules for development
Aims:
C++ makes programming more enjoyable for serious programmers.
C++ is a general-purpose programming language that
- is a better C
- supports data abstraction
- supports object-oriented programming
General rules:
C++'s evolution must be driven by real problems.
Don't get involved in a sterile quest for perfection.
C++ must be useful now.
Every feature must have a reasonably obvious implementation.
Always provide a transition path.
C++ is a language, not a complete system.
Provide comprehensive support for each supported style.
Don't try to force people.
Design support rules:
Support sound design notions.
Provide facilities for program organization.
Say what you mean.
All features must be affordable.
It is more important to allow a useful feature than to prevent every misuse.
Support composition of software from separately developed parts.
Language-technical rules:
No implicit violations of the static type system.
Provide as good support for user-defined types as for built-in types.
Locality is good.
Avoid order dependencies.
If in doubt, pick the variant of a feature that is easiest to teach.
Syntax matters (often in perverse ways).
Low-level programming support rules:
Use traditional (dumb) linkers.
No gratuitous incompatibilities with C.
Leave no room for a lower-level language below C++ (except assembler).
What you don't use, you don't pay for (zero-overhead rule).
If in doubt, provide means for manual control.
Current To-Do List:
* Work on and add to ground rules
* Make some decisions on syntax
* Begin taking small VB projects and translating them to LF code to help us in making decisions for LF sytnax
eyeRmonkey, I did get your PM, but each link shows the same image, is it like that on the sf page that you got it from?
As for donations, since your the project lead you may want to set up the PayPal account. It's extremely easy and fast. Although you do have to be 18...
I currently have a personal PayPal account but I doubt the other members would be comfortable with us using that. I wouldn't take off with the money but I don't think you guys know me well enough to know that I wouldn't.
If you want any different sized logos (like for the web page) post or shoot me a PM.
I'm only 17, so that isn't really going to happen. I'd rather have the money under mine or Jake's control, though, so maybe we will just have to wait or maybe Jake can set up an account and give us both access to it. Is that possible Jake?Quote:
Originally Posted by Datacide
Jake, also, how long until you think your computer is ready and have you set up a sourceforge account?
Didn't you say you were going to do some more work on the logos based on the most recent feedback? I think the last thing I would like to see is a SLIGHTLY more blue in the logo. You might want to scroll back though, Wossy and I both had some feedback a couple pages back. If you could try those changes, then I have a few requests for modifications on those (like small images for the help file and different sizes/qualities for icons and such).Quote:
Originally Posted by penagate
Current To-Do List:
* Work on and add to ground rules (Post #777)
* Make some decisions on syntax
* Begin taking small VB projects and translating them to LF code to help us in making decisions for LF sytnax