Corona virus, China major city lockdowns, etc.

Probably because we had some argument in the past that did not end well.
--

Now, did they finally got it?Let's hope so. "Israel said delaying rollout of 4th COVID shots amid signs Omicron less severe"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel...n-less-severe/
Bravo, about time you get it.
Also "Some scientists warn that too many shots might actually harm the body’s ability to fight the Covid-19 virus. But Israeli experts say there isn’t time to wait."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/23/w...-4th-dose.html , which basically was cancel as no rollout has been issues yet. And hopefully they stay that way.

Also there are rumors that Spain will not got to 3rd dose.
https://twitter.com/GillesWell/statu...b1ceb9-ceb7%2F

I think 3rd dosers should feel duped and they have every right to. I tried to warn, hope some changed their minds.

Whoever continues this BS now that O is here, with doses every 3-4 months without medical issues that recommend to do so, falls in to the junkbie category. Those are relentlessly clueless and should be studied by psychiatrists.

This is from a club in Salonika.
We love our prime idiot. People singling to go fluksen himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz4uuP4rcrA

well, I don't give a crap if someone don't like me.
but its amaze me that people don't care about data, because, no matter who is saying something, it could be good information.
if you discard that because of your "feeling" of that person, it only means you are narrowed minded.

and let me tell you something, the government want that of you. narrowed and simple minded, its much easier to control.
so, get out from the shell and start your critical thinking "against" those that you believe are good, instead of using all your energy to protect them.

and that is for all, even the antivaxxers, so its not just one side, but both.

I think most people are getting tired of this thing going around for 2 years so they will do everything to get their freedom and jobs back, not caring about data. That includes every single measure their government takes. If they told them to stand on one leg they would gladly do so, but telling them to vaccinate to get their freedom back and then taking measures I think is the last straw, that is why some governments are backing up, or not, we will see.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dilettante

As far as I have heard the "loss of ability to smell" symptom was not very common with Delta and almost not a thing any more with Omicron.

---

That's a relief. I'm not saying I smell good, but I smell good enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wes4dbt

I've sort of adopted a wait and see attitude anyway.

---

So...you resemble a container ship??

Oh, that's a wait AT sea attitude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baka

but its amaze me that people don't care about data, because, no matter who is saying something, it could be good information.

---

I find your posts interesting and informative but most of the times I have nothing to comment.

thx Eduardo. at least someone is reading, and if it can give some input Im glad.
of course always with the critical eye, since even my data could be corrupted/altered/manipulated. who knows?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

I personally think, these numbers are "made up", because they just "magically appear" in the statistics of most countries.

For example in germany, I cannot for the hell of it - find any CSV-File which lists in detail:
- which concrete ICU-unit reported this
- from which "county" or "region"

Do you find such a detailed CSV- or XL-File for Canada? ... I guess not.

What we do have though is "the deaths" (which I still assume, is a metric they can lie about the least).

Please apply simple logic and math here for the moment - on these specific numbers for Canada:
- you had two "significant waves" so far (not counting the last one, where Omicron might play a role)
- the first, peaking in Mid April 2021
- the second, peaking in Mid September 2021

So let's look roughly two weeks later (after both peaks), at the dates of May 1 2021 and Oct 1 2021 respectively.

May1:
- double-vaccination-rate: 3%
- Daily-Deaths-per-Million: 1.25 people
- Case-Fatality-rate: 0.56%

Oct1:
- double-vaccination-rate: 71%
- Daily-Deaths-per-Million: 1.11 people
- Case-Fatality-rate: 0.97%

If there really is a significant "efficiency" to be had from vaccination, how do you explain these numbers?

---

Because the numbers are large.

I agree that you could make this look suspicious, but we simply don't have enough data there for the calculation you are trying to perform. Look at it this way:

1) 100% of those people who don't get COVID don't die of COVID.
2) Some percentage of those who get COVID die of COVID.
3) We don't really know what that death rate is, and to some extent we don't care, but there are two ways that could be reported. Both are reasonable, but we don't know which it is from those stats. Most likely, that is daily deaths from COVID per million of the total population. In that case, all the stats are really showing is either that the disease is less lethal in the second wave, or, more likely, that treatment is getting more effective. Or, it could be showing that it is much more lethal, but fewer people are getting the disease. All of those are possible. The data doesn't show which is right.
4) Most people get mild cases.

Even with a high vaccination rate, there are plenty of people to get the disease and plenty of people getting the disease. We're steadily ignoring it, so the virus is having no problems finding the unvaccinated. Heck, the people who are ignoring it more are likely to be the people who aren't vaccinated, so they could well be putting themselves at higher risk.

EDIT: I then thought up a couple other ways that the pattern could exist.

Math is interesting that way. We should be doing a stratified sample, but what gets reported is sometimes a stratified statistic and sometimes not. One is right...er than the other, in my opinion, but once you combine the two, the data can look quite weird.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baka

thx Eduardo. at least someone is reading, and if it can give some input Im glad.
of course always with the critical eye, since even my data could be corrupted/altered/manipulated. who knows?

---

Yes, of course.
I think that is another point why I refrain from commenting, because, for example, Dr. Malone is very controversial and I wouldn't like to comment without good backing data. Because you know, some folks here will come to the jugular (and that's also good, as long as they do it with valid arguments and data).

And it is the end of the year, most of us are rushing for something...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

I personally think, these numbers are "made up", because they just "magically appear" in the statistics of most countries.

---

I think that's an extraordinary claim, because I think it would be very difficult to get away with making up the numbers (here at least). It would take a lot of people all on the same page (Doctors, Nurses, Government leaders, and opposing political parties) to all want to keep everyone locked down and get everyone vaccinated. I think the provincial government here is not the least bit interested in keeping things locked down unless there is a real need, because it has been hurting them politically with some of their base. They're doing it anyway because I think they're genuinely worried that the alternative would end up hurting them more. We'll see how it plays out in the next election. The healthcare workers and PHU's are more interested in lockdowns/vaccinations because they believe it will help lower their workload and prevent collapse in case of a sudden surge of hospitalizations putting them over capacity. So I think if the numbers being reported to the government were flat out lies, they would jump at the opportunity to expose that and open things up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

For example in germany, I cannot for the hell of it - find any CSV-File which lists in detail
- which concrete ICU-unit reported this
- from which "county" or "region"

Do you find such a detailed CSV- or XL-File for Canada? ... I guess not.

---

Not for Canada (though I haven't looked), but I've been keeping an eye on the numbers in Ontario. Here are some pages of interest:

Daily change in cases by PHU
Status of COVID-19 cases in Ontario
Hospitalizations (includes a search by region widget)
COVID-19 cases in hospital and ICU by Ontario Health Region
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTX5x2nxCde90Zwo83cdixZsyd_hU1orGsGYKpDe344wHeFi9MqI71aZYC6GLjOV_P2lp6_lUoacPNa/pubhtml?gid=1467787327&single=true"]Ontario Covid-19 Charts compiled by some guy from official stats
Ontario COVID-19 Data Tool
Case numbers and spread (including ability to filter by vaccination status & age, and region
Ontario COVID-19 Advisory Science Table Dashboard
Public Health Ontario Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to December 12, 2021. Of particular interest see Figure 8b. Fatalities among unvaccinated and breakthrough confirmed cases of COVID-19 by age group: Ontario, December 14, 2020 to December 12, 2021

None of what I found above looks like a government or public health department that's trying to lie or hide something to me. Overall I think they're being transparent with the data, and I trust it to be accurate (within the bounds of reasonable mistakes/reporting errors/typos, etc...).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

May1:
- double-vaccination-rate: 3%
- Daily-Deaths-per-Million: 1.25 people
- Case-Fatality-rate: 0.56%

Oct1:
- double-vaccination-rate: 71%
- Daily-Deaths-per-Million: 1.11 people
- Case-Fatality-rate: 0.97%

---

Is that any cause death rate, or the Covid death rate? Where are the numbers coming from?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

Public Health Ontario Confirmed Cases of COVID-19 Following Vaccination in Ontario: December 14, 2020 to December 12, 2021. Of particular interest see Figure 8b. Fatalities among unvaccinated and breakthrough confirmed cases of COVID-19 by age group: Ontario, December 14, 2020 to December 12, 2021

None of what I found above looks like a government or public health department that's trying to lie or hide something to me.

---

Looks like the same kind of "reports" we get here in germany...
...where there's no Raw-data to be found, which clearly lists the contributions of the different ICU-Stations -
separated by their location (to make such data better verifyable via a simple phonecall or "a visit by an investigative reporter").

Nowhere do I find detailed raw-data with simple Columns like:
- ICU-address (or Phone-Nr, or Email)
- ICU-Units total (at that specific place)
- ICU-Units occupied currently by non-covid-cases
- ICU-Units occupied currently by covid-cases, numbers split into: vacc0, vacc1, vacc2, vacc3 status
- in addition, columns which specify "prior covid-infections", separately for the vacced/unvacced groups

If some of your Links contained such detailed raw-data, I'd like you to point them out to me.

Regarding your Chart 8b:
Hmm... there might be "no lie" behind it - but what they have presented there, is (IMHO) entirely misleading.

Please note, that the death-count for the unvaccinated (which contributed to the final percentages) included:
- the huge numger of deaths from Dec 14 2020 till May 1 2021 (of a period, where basically still no-one was vacced)
- all the deaths from May 1 2021 till roughly Aug 2021 (a period, where your vaccination-program was still in its upswing)

It's such an important statistic - and they messed it up with such dirty little tricks.

Same thing here in Germany - I can for the hell of it, not find any raw-data -
to make such a comparison (death-by-vacc-status - e.g. for the span of the last 2-4 weeks) myself.

Why is such data not transparently available to the public?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

Where are the numbers coming from?

---

From here: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~CAN

There's a Metrics-Box at the top, where you can switch to the things I've listed...
Singular values for a certain date you can verify via your Mouse-Position.

Olaf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

Looks like the same kind of "reports" we get here in germany...
...where there's no Raw-data to be found, which clearly lists the contributions of the different ICU-Stations -
separated by their location (to make such data better verifyable via a simple phonecall or "a visit by an investigative reporter").

Nowhere do I find detailed raw-data with simple Columns like:
- ICU-address (or Phone-Nr, or Email)
- ICU-Units total (at that specific place)
- ICU-Units occupied currently by non-covid-cases
- ICU-Units occupied currently by covid-cases, numbers split into: vacc0, vacc1, vacc2, vacc3 status
- in addition, columns which specify "prior covid-infections", separately for the vacced/unvacced groups

---

The highest resolution I have found is by PHU (public health unit), which is a region containing 1 or more hospitals. I did a bit of digging and have learned that every hospital reports to the provincial government, and the provincial government groups that information into PHU for distribution. Perhaps the individual hospital data could be accessible by a freedom of information request, but that's a bit above my pay grade.

It is interesting though - what might the reasons be for the government to group the data in this way? I can think of a few:

• They are trying to over-report the real numbers to make people more concerned than they should be.
• They are trying to under-report the real numbers to make people less concerned than they should be.
• They're worried the higher resolution data will be used in the "wrong" way. For example, "NIMBYs" living near a particularly hard-hit ICU might protest to get the "dangerous" COVID patients moved elsewhere.

Anyway, that got me searching a bit more, which uncovered this article (mainstream media source, my apologies in advance. You may need to disable JS to read it without a stupid pop-over BTW): Ontario criticized for reporting misleading ICU numbers for COVID-19 patients.html

Interestingly, the health workers in the article are criticizing the government for under-reporting, which fits with what I would expect from a government that would prefer not to have locked down if it was politically possible.

Another interesting thing in that article is the mention of CCSO (Critical Care Services Ontario) and CCIS (Critical Care Information System) as the source of data that hospital administrators use to make decisions. That data is not made public, which is also interesting. Why would that be? Could be nefarious reasons, it could be just because it's not their job (it's an internal tool after all). It could also be because they're not setup to properly scrub the data of personally identifying information and the like. In any case, it does look like you can request the data for research on non-research purposes, so an intrepid investigative reporter could have a chance to get at it: See the CCIS Data Requests Section for the appropriate forms. Since the form is "Attention: Privacy Lead", that last reason for keeping the data non-public by default sounds reasonable to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

Regarding your Chart 8b:
Hmm... there might be "no lie" behind it - but what they have presented there, is (IMHO) entirely misleading.

---

Yeah, I agree that that data is misleading now that I've looked at the dates properly. I originally just glanced at the dates and misread them as being a range of dates in Dec 2021 (e.g. a couple of weeks of data). My mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

Same thing here in Germany - I can for the hell of it, not find any raw-data -
to make such a comparison (death-by-vacc-status - e.g. for the span of the last 2-4 weeks) myself.

---

I didn't look much harder because I've already spent too many hours on this, but I didn't find anything like this either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

Why is such data not transparently available to the public?

---

It's a good question, why do you think?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

From here: https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~CAN

---

Thanks.

Ohhh boy. It's as I thought.


The Robert Koch Institute ( RKI) is a German federal government agency and research institute responsible for disease control and prevention. It is located in Berlin and Wernigerode. As an upper federal agency, it is subordinate to the Federal Ministry of Health.

Are you ready?
Are you sure that you are ready?
Are you absolutely sure that you are ready?

It would be nice if a German speaking fellow verify this as I just translated:
Here is the link to the PDF: https://t.co/L5rk0YLKOw

And here is page 14 translation:

"Additional information is known to some extent for the Omikron cases in the reporting system. for
6,788 cases were provided with information on the symptoms, mostly none or
mild symptoms indicated. It was most common by patients with symptoms
Runny nose (54%), cough (57%) and sore throat (39%) mentioned. 124 patients
were hospitalized, four people died. In 543 (5%) cases, exposure was
country specified. 186 patients were unvaccinated, 4,020 were fully vaccinated,
of these, a booster vaccination was reported for 1,137. On the basis of the transmitted data
148 reinfections were found among all transmitted Omicron infections, none of them
Previous illnesses were reported to the person affected by reinfection. Figure 9 shows the
Division of the Omikron cases reported so far in Germany. Omik-
cases proven. "

So first of all, endemic(?).
Secondly just pray Jesus that it's not as lethal.
Third have a vaxbie new year ! Well it's today but I will be out spitting on vaxbies so...

P.S. German media had the report, they are not saying the vaxbies, they just blah blah blah in general and go vaccinate now. Goes to show huh? I had to dig outside of the google circle to find the article.
https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-ge...day/a-60280693
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...nt-2021-12-23/
https://www.pharmaceutical-technolog...icron-variant/

And lets not forget.
How did you say once?
From Monday only non vaccinated should walk the streets and vaxbies must stay indoors or in camps or massacred so we don't get omicron from them and let us go on with our lives. You have said all these for unvacced before. So I suppose you stick to your opinions now?
You know who you are :rolleyes:

German people. When the new data spread out, demand from your government to lock the vaxbies in, they spread the virus!
Greek people....Lol when the news comes in, in about a years from now, they won't be in authority but you should hunt them down and jail them for the rest of their lives because they knew.
I bet a whole lotta pants where pissed today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

It would be nice if a German speaking fellow verify this as I just translated:
Here is the link to the PDF: https://t.co/L5rk0YLKOw

---

The normal, publically reachable Link is this one here:
https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/...ublicationFile

Translation by me (yours had only minor translation-errors, not related to the numbers):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... additional information is known to some extent for some of the Omikron-cases in the reporting system.

6,788 cases were provided with information on the symptoms, mostly none or only mild symptoms were indicated.
The most common symptoms in patients were runny nose (54%), cough (57%) and sore throat (39%).
124 patients were hospitalized, four people died.
543 (5%) of the cases, had a "foreign-exposure-risk" (were returning from other countries recently).
- 186 patients were unvaccinated
- 4,020 were fully vaccinated ...of these, a booster vaccination was reported for 1,137

(comment by me... the rest of about 2600 - apparently had only one shot or were naturally immune already -
and apparently, the booster-shot is totally worthless against Omikron)

On the basis of the transmitted data, 148 reinfections were found among all transmitted Omicron infections,
none of these persons were affected by previous illnesses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My $0.02 on all that:

As always, such more detailed infos (split into vacc/unvacc) only come up occasionally in "additional footnotes" -
(to assure "deniability" in case an accusation of "hiding information" comes up).
There's still no systematic and weekly reporting of detailed information about "cases, ICU-occupation, or covid-deaths",
which are split regarding their respective vaccination-status.

And yes, they are still pushing the official (corporate-lobbied) agenda in the public media, that:
- Omikron is extremely dangerous ("everything will collapse - even FireDepartments - let's vaccinate with more boosters")
- unvaccinated people are still "a danger to society" (let's make vaccinations mandatory)

Especially the last one is nauseatingly dishonest...
(it always was, also in the "D-variant-phase" where the numbers did not support the claim, that "the unvacced are a danger")

Regarding case-mortality from covid:
- with the D-Variant, we had about 0.6-0.8% in the recent one or two months
- whereas from those recent Omikron-numbers (10,443 Omikron-cases with only 4 deaths so far)
..one can easily deduce that the case-mortality is dropping significantly (same as in SouthAfrica)...

I guess it might be a little early to fully trust a calculated number at this early stage
(as it is, about 0.04% case-mortality for Omikron in Germany) - but the tendency,
that it will be at least an order of magnitude lower (compared with the D-Variant),
seems to be highly likely (the confidence in that, as said, bolstered by the numbers
in countries who are further along with the Omikron-spread).

Olaf

Do we still care about case rates? Have we cared much since the vaccine rolled out? AFAIK it's always been about ICU capacity, death rates, and serious problem rates. If COVID has finally become the sniffles, who cares about case rates? This should be good news.

Anyway some of the disagreements we're having are coming down to what to do with a lack of data. There are clearly some holes in the information we have (notably the recent short-term data on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated death rates).

In the absence of data, I think we fall back to our underlying personalities. Perhaps I'm more willing to give people the benefit of the doubt (up to a point), perhaps you're more willing to ascribe ill-intent. We all seem to err on the side of caution, but the side we think is more cautious differs (I felt getting the vaccine was the right choice, some of you felt otherwise). At the end of the day though, in the absence of any compelling data, we're all just betting that our default choices are the right ones.

Here's a funny thing about a personal absence of data. To this day I know of no one within one degree of separation that has tested positive for COVID. No one in my immediate or extended family, none of my friends, none of the neighbours that I talk to on my street. Maybe it doesn't exist after all? I haven't physically met a single person who has had COVID (at least with their awareness).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

Do we still care about case rates?

---

Not much - they are only important, when it comes to determining the mortality-rate somewhat more reliable.

E.g. Cyprus is a good country to choose, when you want to find out about the most probable mortality-rate...
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~CYP
According to Cyprus, the real fatality-rate for Covid is more like 0.3% (assuming, normal state-of-the-art healthcare).

They are the Country, where the amount of continuous testing is at least an order of magnitude higher than in any other:
https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...ry=CYP~CAN~DEU

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

Anyway some of the disagreements we're having are coming down to what to do with a lack of data.
There are clearly some holes in the information we have (notably the recent short-term data on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated death rates)

---

Especially when the "scarcity" of data in these areas is deliberate
(suppressed by extensive lobbying - throughout a whole lot of countries).

Why is this data not availalbe in most countries?
Because their whole argumentation, all the propaganda we have endured -
(where they "blame the unvacced as the cause for the recent waves" and present "vaccination as the only salvation"),
would fall apart immediately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

In the absence of data, I think we fall back to our underlying personalities.

---

I'd say, that it is more a thing of "applying common sense" (accompanied by a dose of: "Occams razor").

But Ok - it might indeed be "a personal trait", to what degree a specific person performs "thinking about it".

There's always the danger of:
1) "overthinking stuff" (approaching the borders of paranoia) - and
2) in the other extreme... too much of a "doesn't bother, or doesn't affect me"-attitude
2.1) variation of 2, where one is recognizing the problem, but "keeps silent" out of fear of losing face, job, whatever

1) is, where "speculations about ill-intent" go overboard (producing stuff like the QAnon-nonsense)
2) is, where the "sheeple"-attribute is well-deserved
2.1) is... well, understandable - and kinda sad

What I hope we all can agree on at least?...
is that everyone was able to witness a so far unprecedented "wag-the-dog"-event -
(company-interests dominating governments on a global scale openly and shamelessly).

For example what I'd like to read about personally is some more reliable background-info,
about the 4-5 governments who didn't sign the inhuman and strangling Pfizer contracts in the first round.

Especially the reasons, why each of these governments "came back in the end, signing it" - a few weeks or months later.

Olaf

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

For example what I'd like to read about personally is some more reliable background-info,
about the 4-5 governments who didn't sign the inhuman and strangling Pfizer contracts in the first round.

Especially the reasons, why each of these governments "came back in the end, signing it" - a few weeks or months later.

Olaf

---

Here in Argentina it was the case.

Everybody took that as the government wanted to make some corrupt business with Russia and China, that were the vaccines we got first, and for that reason they didn't go ahead with PFizer contract.

The now former Health minister at the time had said, that Pfizer has requested things that were inadmissible, and that at some point he would reveal what they asked for (he never did so far).

There was a huge criticism (from the political opposition and media) to the government because they didn't get the Pfizer contract.
That the other vaccines were not good, etc. (In my opinion, it turned out to be the opposite.)

This year, after the big pressure of media for long time, after the popularity of the government fell down a lot (and after the obscure business with Russians and Chinese have already been done?), at the end the government signed the agreement with Pfizer, and also with Moderna.

People and reporters speculated what could PFizer have asked, but nobody knows.

I hope the data continues to show the O variant has such a low mortality rate. Because the spread is exploding here, up 80% in one week. But I don't understand this claim that the vaccine is useless. If that's true then the vaccinated should be dying from the virus at least at a 5/1 rate. If 75% are vaccinated and a very high percentage of the most vulnerable are vaccinated then I would expect probably a rate even higher than 5/1. In fact it seems quite the opposite.

if u read the rapports (the real one, not from media)
its like 0,03-0,04% death rate, like influenza.

O variant is different, your antibodies are no match, you could inject 10 boosters, and the result is the same.
u need a new variation of the vaccine that can match the O variant.

but, O variant shows that is mild, much like a flu. so of course someone will die, every year we have 600.000 that dies of the flu.
if you are old and weak, u could die. we can not live forever.

right now they are doing everything to not loose face. theres money here, corrupted politicians, people in power that want to squeeze as much they can for profit.
of course the hospitals are full, theres a problem with the health care system that can not sustain the amount of elderly people, its a falling system that has been going on for years.

here, they know they need to do something, everything cost more, energy, gas, food, because "they took enormous loans" to pay the corrupted people that are behind this pandemic. and we need to pay it back. but its impossible, the amount if huge and the politicians knows that, they try to get new credits, but we are reaching a point of no return, when the cost to pay the interest rates are higher than the income. its a loosing battle.

but with a pandemic, to change the world into a more totalitarian direction, is what they try now to survive a bit more, of course we are the one to pay for it. and the cost is our freedom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

What I hope we all can agree on at least?...
is that everyone was able to witness a so far unprecedented "wag-the-dog"-event -
(company-interests dominating governments on a global scale openly and shamelessly).

---

I don't think there's any doubt that corporate interest dominate governments in many cases, we see examples of this all the time and have for a long time. I don't know if the domination is unprecedented in the sense that corporations were doing (or trying to do) any more "domination" than they usually try to do, or if the situation itself was so unprecedented in modern times that they were able to more effectively get what they wanted and were able to capitulate less (if anything). Governments were kind of backed into a corner on this one, no? You've got your science advisories boards recommending vaccines and lockdowns, you have a populations where 60-70% of the people are asking for a vaccine because they think it will help get us out of this mess, and you've got a company that shows up with a vaccine that they'll sell you on their terms. If you buy in, in the worst case is that you've wasted money. If you don't, in the short term you will be absolutely lambasted by the public & media. The worst case long-term you might go down in history as being responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people. The best case long term might be that you will get to say "look, we were right and saved a bucket of cash!", but unfortunately you might be saying that from the other side of the election you just lost. So I don't see how many governments had much choice really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

For example what I'd like to read about personally is some more reliable background-info,
about the 4-5 governments who didn't sign the inhuman and strangling Pfizer contracts in the first round.

---

Did they get the Russian/Chinese vaccines instead? That would only be politically possible for some countries, can you imagine if the just about any Western nation bought the Russian or Chinese vaccine? Might as well hand a loaded machine gun to your political opponents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Schmidt

Especially the reasons, why each of these governments "came back in the end, signing it" - a few weeks or months later.

---

Again, this could be something nefarious (like Pfizer-reps showing up at the Presidential Palace with a manila envelope full of "interesting" photographs), or it could be they worked out a better deal due to competition from the other vaccines that were never a possibility for the other countries.

What's I do think though is that contracts signed by the Government should be publicly available, unless there's a National Security issue such as there may be with a military contract. Can't imagine how national security would come in to play with a vaccine purchase contract though. I'm totally out of the loop on the contracts though - have any been released, and do we know what's in them? Wikileaks get a copy yet?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by baka

if u read the rapports (the real one, not from media)
its like 0,03-0,04% death rate, like influenza.

---

What reports are those? Everything is media, unless you get your hands on scientific papers that have yet to be published. I'm not sure those are reliable, unless you can get your hands on them after they have been accepted for publication and before they are actually published. If they were rejected for publication, then why would you want them? If they have already been published...that's media.

I'd like to know which countries Olaf is talking about. It seems like a different story for different countries. Eduardo has it right, as far as I know, for a whole lot of countries. China and Russia were certainly playing some vaccine diplomacy, for better or worse. Some countries took them up on it, also for better or worse. And then there are countries like Japan, which did very little, then a whole lot. That was a different motivation entirely, as far as I can tell.

Happy new yeeerrrr!
Jb is from canada right?
https://twitter.com/EzraKahan/status...b9-cf80cebb%2F

O variant, 81.1% of cases are amongst the fully vaccinated.

And vaxbies are wondering, but why? We take 1 we add 3 and subtract 11 and divide by 6. Lol, you've been duped.
Now I propose people in Canada to also start a lockdown on the vaccinated, they are dangerous. You know influenza kills 600.000 per year and as it seems like O have somewhat the same deathpatern, we could save lives if we lock them up. Camps, exile, shoot them. What you have proposed before.

In other news, I ate so much. Ohhh!! Also for a good start of they year would be nice if you donate to your local community. A nice act is donate on children care hospitals and organizations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

Happy new yeeerrrr!
Jb is from canada right?

---

You bet, Happy New Year from Canada!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

O variant, 81.1% of cases are amongst the fully vaccinated.

---

As you would expect at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

And vaxbies are wondering, but why? We take 1 we add 3 and subtract 11 and divide by 6. Lol, you've been duped.

---

Maybe some people feel duped, but I don't. I was happy to get vaccinated as a hedge against some potentially serious bad luck vs. the earlier variants (and I would do it again). Now that Omicron seems both inevitable and likely mild, I'm just waiting in line for my turn - I'll let you know how it goes! Anyway, the government here has basically come to the same conclusion, telling everyone with symptoms to do their best to isolate for 7 days. Testing is no longer free unless you are in a high risk group. Strangely, the return to school after Christmas break has been delayed by 2 whole days (Because that's supposed to have some kind of effect I guess?), and no restrictions have been lifted yet, but I assume this will happen soon enough. It will be interesting to see how it affects day-to-day life if everyone comes down with it in a short period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

Now I propose people in Canada to also start a lockdown on the vaccinated, they are dangerous. You know influenza kills 600.000 per year and as it seems like O have somewhat the same deathpatern, we could save lives if we lock them up. Camps, exile, shoot them. What you have proposed before.

---

I never said anything like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

In other news, I ate so much. Ohhh!!

---

Me too. Falafel with tahini sauce on rice, salad, tabbouleh, tzatziki, baba ghanouj, hummus, pickled beets, artichoke hearts, and toasted pita. It was good enough to have the leftovers for lunch just now :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

Also for a good start of they year would be nice if you donate to your local community. A nice act is donate on children care hospitals and organizations.

---

Good idea :) I just donated $50 to the local children's hospital, dedicated to you.

Good for you to donate. I also do but I don't like to give details.

Just to clarify, the vax comments where in no way directed to you.

P.S. I had to fill a captcha and it wrote "Allergic Reaction", hhhm, I started scratching... :cry:

I'm trying to get a head start and isolate early.

Actually, I went up skiing (cross country only, as I want to save my knees for other hobbies).

It sure looks like Omicron will get past the current vaccines...and the evidence is increasingly clear that it also isn't all that severe and pretty insignificant for those who are vaccinated. So, yeah, looks like we'll all get it and those without the vaccine, previous infection, and those with either and other comorbidities will be the ones at risk. That is pretty much the profile for the flu, so maybe COVID will just become another weeder of the garden. It may be a year before we know that, though. That 600,000 is world wide (and has HUGE error bars around it from one year to the next). In the US, it's around 50K/year, plus or minus about 30K from one year to the next. It will be months, if not a year, before we have some idea what the death toll from Omicron is on a yearly basis.

I say don't risk it like before and lock all vaxbies!! :duck:


P.S. Who said endemic,endemic,endemic first?I wondeeeerrr....Now all we have to do is wait for the aftermath as you say.I have my suspicions but I'll wait before saying anything.
But the 1rf to thirth(yep) doses are coming for O, the pharmaceuticals said so. What will vaxbies do?! Tune in next week...

Quote:

---

P.S. Who said endemic,endemic,endemic first?I wondeeeerrr...

---

You have said it many times. Even though you are clearly wrong.

Quote:

---

WHAT IS A PANDEMIC?
The World Health Organization (WHO) declares a pandemic when a disease’s growth is exponential. This means growth rate skyrockets, and each day cases grow more than the day prior.

In being declared a pandemic, the virus has nothing to do with virology, population immunity, or disease severity. It means a virus covers a wide area, affecting several countries and populations.

WHAT IS AN ENDEMIC?
An endemic is a disease outbreak that is consistently present but limited to a particular region. This makes the disease spread and rates predictable.

Malaria, for example, is considered an endemic in certain countries and regions.

---

Unless you don't think the virus has spread to many countries. You would be wrong but at least it would make sense.

Ohhh, vaxbiees acting clueless. Whatyou gonnadooo...

Vaxbie vaxbies whatyougonnado, whatyougonnado when they vax you too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sapator

I say don't risk it like before and lock all vaxbies!! :duck:


P.S. Who said endemic,endemic,endemic first?I wondeeeerrr....Now all we have to do is wait for the aftermath as you say.I have my suspicions but I'll wait before saying anything.
But the 1rf to thirth(yep) doses are coming for O, the pharmaceuticals said so. What will vaxbies do?! Tune in next week...

---

If they come out with an Omicron vaccine, I'll be getting it.

As for endemic, I don't know who said it first, but I didn't see it in this forum first, that's for sure. Don't go claiming credit for that word. Besides, endemic may not mean what you think it means. Heart disease is endemic, it's also deadly, so people are always looking for ways to reduce the death toll from it. If COVID simply becomes the number one killer of the elderly such that your life expectancy at 60 drops by a decade or so, is that a good thing? Nobody would say so...except some economists who would note that it would make life easier for the government since certain payments and expenses would drop dramatically.

Of course I did not say it first. I said it first in this thread and possible since we got 2 thread on the subject in this forum.
Are we talking semantics now, acting like we don't understand?

Endemic. Well you will be surprised that I understand the word better than you think. And I was associating it with what covid viruses and influenza ended up to be to make a point.Of course it was a year ago so you have the right not to recall.
But since we act like we need to know the exact of the word, let me give it to you (and by you I don't mean Shaggy, it's plural).
It's Greek, it's ancient Greek. Let me break that.
Endemic from Greek adverb endon "ένδον" meaning that occurs, originates or belongs within (aka inside) the second compound of the word to come.
The second compound waiting to be glued in is, miccos from the Greek word "μικκός" meaning small. Miccos is on the Ionian language spread or we can use micros, meaning the same but on Biotian and or Dorian.

Ok, that's a nice background on the etymology, but why does it matter? Why does it matter whether or not it is endemic? We are constantly struggling against endemic diseases. We certainly don't ignore them, or fail to seek treatments and cures. Why would we do different in this case? Who really cares whether or not it is endemic? All that means is that we failed to stop it.

Really, it hurt my ego not acknowledging the 3 e's (endemic,endemic,endemic). :p
We where discussing if it will go from pandemic to endemic in the last few pages and I reminded the 3 e's and then you, you and and and that other bad guy attacked me about endemic (little did we know that.....)
You don't fail to stop a flukous, but it's the start of the year and I don't wanna go circling again .
Anyhow since it will probably go to simple flu mode I'm just trying to get my blood back(is that a phrase you use?) as this will be over soon and I won't have a thread to satisfy my big ego and selfishness :bigyello:

(hmmm climate change, they will vax people soon for this somehow so...)

You appear to be equating endemic with harmless, or at least readily ignored. That's not the definition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jpbro

We can't completely stop it, but I think there are measures we can take to spread it out. We're all going to get it since omicron is basically infecting exponentially now, but I think there is value in trying to make sure we all don't get it at once (more or less). Or perhaps not? Maybe it's better for everyone to get it over the next month or so, have society basically collapse for a few weeks and then try to quickly rebuild once it has run its course?

---

Isn't that what the U.K. tried at first, the primary out break, and reversed ASAP?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLbJ0H8zdc

Joe Rogan interview with Dr. Malone:
(highly interesting insights - no exaggerations, no bull -
and a relaxed interviewer who's actually able to follow)
https://rumble.com/vrrkwz-joe-rogan-...rt-malone.html

Had to use a Rumble-Link here, because Youtube is in the meantime taking down even the re-uploads faster and faster.

Olaf