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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
szlamany
1) What are the top 5 features or aspects of VB6 that are the most important to you - that you really require?
- native compiler
- deployability of the same (compiled) binary to all current Win-platforms
- deterministic behaviour when Objects (or other sidewards allocated stuff as Strings or Arrays) go out of scope
- fast upstarting and (comparably) lightweight IDE
- ability to choose myself, which dependencies I want to incude in my deployment
- reasonably high hurdles with regards to potentially attempted decompilation-efforts
- Debuggability across different IDE-Instances (IDE-Processes)
- 1:1 Code-Compatibility in case of Office-Automation (VBA)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
szlamany
2) What are the top 5 most unwanted features of VB.Net that you never, ever want to see?
Perhaps it was this second question, which caused an: "this is a poor idea"-reply...
(because it has much more potential to heat-up the discussion again).
But here we go - what I'd never like to see in a VB6-successor are:
- Garbage-Collection
- Intermediate-, non-native Code
- release-cycles in an (unreasonably) high frequency
- a 100-300MB Class-Library which comes "as a Blob" - and can differ from system to system (or is not there at all)
- a "Babel-like"-scenario in terms of modern GUI-stuff, where nobody really knows where to saddle on
..(instead a GUI-Framework which is well-thought-out, so that new stuff and changes can happen *behind* existing and stable interfaces)
A bit decoupled from .NET as it is today - but becoming more (and more) important (to me) - so I will at least "make a wish" here:
- no AppStore-enforcement (although it seems that this becomes more of an "OS-feature" - and less a restriction of "modern IDEs"
Olaf
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schmidt
- a "Babel-like"-scenario in terms of modern GUI-stuff, where nobody really knows where to saddle on
..(instead a GUI-Framework which is well-thought-out, so that new stuff and changes can happen *behind* existing and stable interfaces)
A million times, this. I find it sad (and a little ridiculous) that the ever-changing world of HTML+CSS provides a more stable, consistent UI framework than Windows itself.
XAML (any of its 4 different incarnations), WPF, HTML5, WinForms - I don't care which platform they pick, but please guarantee that at least one will be a stable, reliable target moving forward.
The same goes for the graphics libraries underlying the UI frameworks. You can't leave something like GDI+ as a major component of the .NET stack, only to deprecate it and leave it in a permanently half-working state. Similarly, GDI desperately needs to be dragged into the modern age (32-bpp support throughout the library as a bare minimum), and ideally, both of these libraries should be layered atop DirectX.
(I actually think Microsoft's fundamental inability to stick with a UI framework is directly tied to the sloppiness of the underlying low-level libraries. Clean those up, and UI frameworks will be a lot easier to support.)
/rant
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
and ideally, both of these libraries should be layered atop DirectX.
Didn't they attempt this with Vista ?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
Since you seem to be hung up on C# and VB.Net, let's use another example to make this clearer.
Emscripten is a clever tool that converts C/C++ code to Javascript. This is what allows massive C/C++ projects like the Unreal Engine to
run natively in browsers.
By your logic, I can hold up any javascript project and use it as an example of how great C and C++ are. "It's trivial to convert between them," "very little modification is required," "shared plugins," etc.
Similarly, by your logic, I may as well hold up projects written in ASM and use them to justify how great VB6 is. Or use a Spanish-language novel to extol the virtues of English, because any software program can easily convert between the two.
You keep trying to turn my point into something it isn't. I'm simply saying: you can't hold up C# projects and use them to extol the virtues of VB.Net. That is all.
The same logic goes for VB6 users. They can't hold up PowerBasic applications (or whatever else) and use it to play up VB6's virtues. If you want to talk about the strengths of a programming language, you need to reference projects written natively in that language. Then we can have a meaningful discussion.
(FYI: my whole point in badgering you is that you keep using the same flawed logic you claim to hate in VB6 users. You rant about the emotional fanaticism on display, and then proceed to post emotionally charged rants. I think this thread could be very helpful for true beginners to "see the light" about the strengths/weaknesses of VB.Net and VB6, but not if they're going to be called names and accused of fanaticism for being passionate about their choice of language.
And as tempting as it is to focus on new and shiny technology, old languages and tech have a huge role to play in the future - after all, Java is 20 years old now, while C++ is over 30 years old. Well-established technology can often produce better stuff than the "latest and greatest", simply because it's well-understood, well-documented, and well-tested. Before we throw all shades of VB under the bus, let's talk about where they're strong and where they're weak. I think that's a helpful and valid discussion, which is probably why it produces such passionate comments!)
No, no no no.....you're still missing the point. Or maybe I wasn't clear enough. Let me clarify, when I say VB.Net, what I'm really thinking is VB.Net + Visual Studio + .Net Framework. VB.Net yes is a great language but the language itself is only part of the reason why I prefer to use it. The new IDE is a huge reason as well as the Framework. Given that the C# can access the exact same Framework hence uses the exact same types and C# has many of the same features VB.Net has and C# also works in the same IDE then you can see why I would see both languages as interchangeable. Ignore other implementations of C# like Mono for the time being. I'm talking about MS's implementation only. Sorry for not being clear.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
The be more clear my arguments aren't so much for VB.Net as it is for the newer Visual Studio Suite of tools which includes VB.Net and C#, their compilers and the Framework. They all play together quite nicely and allow me to develop applications much faster and much more elegantly than Visual Studio 6's suite of tools which includes VB6.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
A million times, this. I find it sad (and a little ridiculous) that the ever-changing world of HTML+CSS provides a more stable, consistent UI framework than Windows itself.
XAML (any of its 4 different incarnations), WPF, HTML5, WinForms - I don't care which platform they pick, but please guarantee that at least one will be a stable, reliable target moving forward.
I've always believed that declarative languages like HTML and XAML are the best ways to author a UI. I think XAML has a bright future and if not there are more than enough ways to utilize HTML.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schmidt
- native compiler
- deployability of the same (compiled) binary to all current Win-platforms
- deterministic behaviour when Objects (or other sidewards allocated stuff as Strings or Arrays) go out of scope
- fast upstarting and (comparably) lightweight IDE
- ability to choose myself, which dependencies I want to incude in my deployment
- reasonably high hurdles with regards to potentially attempted decompilation-efforts
- Debuggability across different IDE-Instances (IDE-Processes)
- 1:1 Code-Compatibility in case of Office-Automation (VBA)
VB6 already meets these requirements, why need a new one ?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
Quote:
- native compiler
- deployability of the same (compiled) binary to all current Win-platforms
- deterministic behaviour when Objects (or other sidewards allocated stuff as Strings or Arrays) go out of scope
- fast upstarting and (comparably) lightweight IDE
- ability to choose myself, which dependencies I want to incude in my deployment
- reasonably high hurdles with regards to potentially attempted decompilation-efforts
- Debuggability across different IDE-Instances (IDE-Processes)
- 1:1 Code-Compatibility in case of Office-Automation (VBA)
VB6 already meets these requirements, why need a new one ?
Well, I've simply answered szlamanys question 1).
And you're right - there's currently not *that* much pressure, but for the future it would be nice to:
- be independent from the old vbRuntime
- be able to compile to 64Bit-targets
- be able to make use of more optimization-features, available in recent C-Compilers
- be able to introduce a few new features into the language itself
- be able to do static linking
- be able to compile for other platforms than Windows
Olaf
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
From what I've read seems the 64bit aspect is hard to overcome with the way that vb6 and it's dependencies are written.
Has the venture capital project mentioned the 64bit part of this puzzle?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
szlamany
From what I've read seems the 64bit aspect is hard to overcome with the way that vb6 and it's dependencies are written.
The truth is that Microsoft has already addressed most of this in 64-bit VBA 7.
They have already written a 64-bit IDE, a 64-bit VBVM, and converted quite a few of the OCXs shipped with VB6 over to 64-bit as well. All that is really missing is a new C2.EXE and LINK.EXE to generate x64 PE file native code.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
I've always believed that declarative languages like HTML and XAML are the best ways to author a UI. I think XAML has a bright future and if not there are more than enough ways to utilize HTML.
I think you misunderstand what a "declarative language" actually is.
Those given are examples of trivial markup "languages" which are actually just INI-like file formats derived from SGML - not languages at all.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
szlamany
From what I've read seems the 64bit aspect is hard to overcome with the way that vb6 and it's dependencies are written.
Has the venture capital project mentioned the 64bit part of this puzzle?
Indirectly, yes - since the vbRichClient was mentioned as one possible "stack"
to build an IDE+Compiler-solution on (offering Widgets which are implemented
entirely with the VB6-language - and thus later on easy translatable into
64Bit-versions.
Alternatively mentioned was Lazarus (providing the Backend) - and this environment
has also a platform-independent (32/64Bit) Widget-Stack they can bind to.
The above 32/64 bit capabilities I've mentioned, with platform-independence in mind
(which I would like to focus on - in a first version - having at least the VB6-Standard-
Controls covered in VB-Code-based, 1:1 Widget-Replacements).
As for "OCXes" (Windows-only-tech, and therefore not that high on my personal priority-list so far) ...
the 32Bit-version of the new compiler *could* bind to the older 32Bit-VB-OCXes of course
(FlexGrids and what-not - and for 64Bit-OCXes this wouldn't be different - since there's appropriate
Calls available in the Flat ATL-libs, to "site" these Controls on a Parent-hWnd quite easily).
And other than mentioned here, the most "big and well-known OCX-vendors" are
thriving and still out there (as e.g. Component-One, or CodeJock).
And they *do* have 32Bit- as well as 64Bit-ActiveX-Controls available in their huge suites
(usually delivered as one big bundle, including 32Bit- as well as the 64Bit versions).
Here's links which give proof of that:
ComponentOne:
http://our.componentone.com/2012/02/...ivex-controls/
CodeJock:
http://www.codejock.com/products/suitepro/
Olaf
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schmidt
...
As for "OCXes" (Windows-only-tech, and therefore not that high on my personal priority-list so far) ...
the 32Bit-version of the new compiler *could* bind to the older 32Bit-VB-OCXes of course
(FlexGrids and what-not - and for 64Bit-OCXes this wouldn't be different - since there's appropriate
Calls available in the Flat ATL-libs, to "site" these Controls on a Parent-hWnd quite easily).
I'm a little confused now.
Do you mean that binding to OCXs could be easy, but not making them?
That would be more than enough for a start, imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Schmidt
And other than mentioned here, the most "big and well-known OCX-vendors" are
thriving and still out there (as e.g. Component-One, or CodeJock).
And they *do* have 32Bit- as well as 64Bit-ActiveX-Controls available in their huge suites
(usually delivered as one big bundle, including 32Bit- as well as the 64Bit versions).
That's true for many of them but not Codejock, I think (I have a somewhat old version, tho).
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I think you misunderstand what a "declarative language" actually is.
Are you trying to say that XAML isn't a declarative language:confused: Because MSDN would disagree with you. Or have I missed your point there?
Quote:
there have certainly been worse crowdfunded projects...
Hey! Potato salad was the best kick starter evah and I'll fight any man who says otherwise:mad:
edit> BTW I'm with Niya on the whole, C# and .Net being interchangeable thing. It's not to do with the ease of converting the code, it's to do with the fact that you needn't even bother. They're essentially the same language operating in the same environment. Indeed, I'm always quite surprised that MS haven't introduced compiler directives that would allow you to switch freely back and forth between the two as you code (although that might lead to some pretty horrendous looking code). That said, I also agree that it's kinda off topic where VB6 is concerned.
Quote:
Well, I've simply answered szlamanys question 1).
I think a more interesting question would be "What are the five killer features you'd like to see added to VB6 that aren't supported already?". Olaf's pretty much given his answer in post 548 but I'd be curious to hear what the other people want.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carlos Rocha
I'm a little confused now.
Do you mean that binding to OCXs could be easy, ...
Relatively - yes.
The siting (to be able to see the thing on a Parent-hWnd) can be done in two or three
normal Flat-API-calls - a bit harder then is the integration into the Tabbing- and Focus-
System, the Event-Binding and Handling and to generally make them play well together
with the (hWnd-less) Widget-Classes on the same Host-Form.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carlos Rocha
...but not making them?
Making them, is harder (in case we stick with plain C, as is the plan currently).
An AX-Control is (from my point of view) an over-engineered mess, which
needs a lot of support from the environment, to get the dozens of interfaces
right (C++ has such support - and of course the VB6-environment too) - the
new Widgets are (much) easier to produce, to compile and to site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carlos Rocha
That's true for many of them but not Codejock, I think (I have a somewhat old version, tho).
You mean 64Bit-support?
I've seen them state it explicitely on the page I linked to (at the bottom) - and also re-sellers
have the "64Bit-available"-info on their sites as e.g. this one (apparently since 2010):
http://www.componentsource.com/news/...oolkitpro.html
Quote:
Updates in 2009 Vol 3 V13.3- ...
- ActiveX x64 Support
All ActiveX products now come with a 64-bit compatible OCX. With 64-bit support, projects can now be built using x64 configurations.
I mean, that's just normal for this MFC-based C++ stuff, since coming up with a 64Bit-version
is (basically) just a compiler-switch - which is another thing I've read here recently (from
FunkyDexter I think), where there's the totally wrong belief, that producing a 64Bit version
"would cost a lot of time and money" - it does not Funky - it's not "coding" we talk about
in this case, but only "compiling" (from the same existing C/C++ code-base).
Olaf
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
(from FunkyDexter I think),
Nope, wasn't me. I imagine it would be a pretty substantial undertaking but it's not something I've examined closely enough to have an opinion on. I would have thought the bulk of the work wouldn't be in the compiler but in converting all the GUI controls to accept 64 bit but since you seem to be advocating a completely new path for the GUI maybe you've sidestepped that.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
No, C# and VB.Net are *not* interchangeable. C# has way more third-party libraries, way more source code samples, a much larger development community, and a number of features VB.Net lacks.
Tanner_H, generally you have good points BUT i really am struggling to understand why you think that C# is so superior to VB.Net?
I mean this come from someone who generally programs in C#. I find myself more efficient in it and more productive and just down right prefer it.
Saying that i cant think of a single thing (apart from Pointers which i only rarely use) that i can do in one that i cant do in the other!!!
You statement that C# has way more third-party libraries i don't understand as you can use C# dll in a VB.Net project and vice-versa
As for code examples, yes there are probably more C# examples but there are plenty enough VB.Net examples if you look around.
So i really am interested in why you think this way?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedSomeAnswers
Tanner_H, generally you have good points BUT i really am struggling to understand why you think that C# is so superior to VB.Net?
I mean this come from someone who generally programs in C#. I find myself more efficient in it and more productive and just down right prefer it.
Saying that i cant think of a single thing (apart from Pointers which i only rarely use) that i can do in one that i cant do in the other!!!
You statement that C# has way more third-party libraries i don't understand as you can use C# dll in a VB.Net project and vice-versa
As for code examples, yes there are probably more C# examples but there are plenty enough VB.Net examples if you look around.
So i really am interested in why you think this way?
I have probably been overstating my point (sorry!), but for me, it boils down to a couple things:
1) Syntactically, I much prefer C#. This is 100% opinion and probably meaningless, but IMO you can tell C# was designed recently with a strong emphasis on combining the best features of many languages. VB.Net feels very much like they crammed an old language paradigm onto a new technology stack. (Little things, like the way For loops are constructed in VB, drive me nuts!)
2) The unsafe keyword is extremely useful in my line of work, so for me, that's a major loss in VB.Net.
3) 3rd-party libraries was the wrong wording, I think. My apologies. I was lumping that in with "code samples", e.g. "open-source libraries", not compiled libraries. One need only compare the number of source code lines available at an open-source aggregator like OpenHub:
C# open-source projects: 871,129,246 lines of code
VB open-source projects: 49,205,300 lines of code
Not only is there 20x more C# code out there, the VB total includes both VB.Net and VB6. Pretty sad. :(
4) On average, C# jobs pay some $5k more than VB jobs, at least in the U.S. If you can switch between both languages with ease, that's awesome and the best way to go. But C# skills seem to be valued more highly.
5) All the new toys come to C# first. You can tell it's the first-class .NET citizen (as it should be, IMO, given all the numbers above). While VB.Net eventually gains most those features, if you can use both languages, I just don't see any reason to go with VB.Net over C#.
I've started threads about this before, but one of my big curiosities is why people aren't doing more interesting things in VB. (Any flavor, .NET or classic.) If C# and VB.Net were truly interchangeable, I'd expect to see roughly equal development in both languages, but 20x more code for C#... I don't know, the numbers seem speak for themselves.
Anyway, hope that helps clarify my previous points. I'm a big open-source participant so I would *love* to see more great code written in VB. But open-source VB projects are extremely hard to come by.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FunkyDexter
Are you trying to say that XAML
isn't a declarative language:confused: Because
MSDN would disagree with you. Or have I missed your point there?
I'm saying it's all meaningless, like giving a blob of peanut butter to a dog and calling its mouth movements "talking" - little sound and nothing of relelvance is produced.
But I'd be happy to see an example of an interactive game, a database client, a prime number generator, etc. "written in" XAML or HTML. Might inspire me to break out WordPad to "write" a program in RTF too!
Or could it be that these are all static markup formats that fall down like a puppet until some code written in an actual language works the strings? ;)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
one of my big curiosities is why people aren't doing more interesting things in VB
Quote:
On average, C# jobs pay some $5k more than VB jobs
I think this probably goes a long way towards answering your question. To me the real mystery is why companies seem to think that C# skills are 5k more valuable.
I think it's probably historical. Like it or lump it a lot (and I really ought to capitalize that to ALOT) of folks see the word "Basic" and think "Idiot". This cursed VB6 and continues to curse VB.Net. It's really just snobbery, though, and is largely miss-placed.
True story, a friend of mine writes low level hardware drivers. He sneered at me for years about how VB (first 6, then .Net and C# too in later years) was inefficient and all the developers were bad and didn't really know what they were doing and blah-de-blah-de-blah. A few years back his company started requiring him to knock up windows based test harnesses for his drivers. At first he tried using C++ and muddled along OK but then they started mandating C# for the harnesses. His opinion changed in record time as he finally got that the point of high level languages isn't precision, it's productivity. He had his Damascus moment and, while I sincerely doubt he will even be using C# for the drivers, he aint going to be using C++ for the UI no more.
That's one of the reasons I find the whole "VB6 is powerful enough to out perform VB.Net" arguments a little fatuous. If performance is your driver then both are probably the wrong choice. Sure you can make VB6 run like Usain Bolt but why would you want to? Delegating performant functions to C or even Assembler is going to do a better job at that with less effort.
Quote:
But I'd be happy to see an example of an interactive game, a database client, a prime number generator
Niya's point, in response to which you loudly declared that he didn't know what a declarative language was, was that declarative languages, and XAML in particular if you're using the MS stack, are ideally suited for describing what a UI needs to do without describing how it needs to do it. It allows you to produce a layer that says "You need to display X, Y and Z information along with the ability to allow the user to send A, B and C message back". It doesn't (or shouldn't) attempt to describe exactly how X, Y and Z will appear or how the User is to generate A, B and C. That is a hugely useful ability if you wish to properly de-couple your UI from your underlying model.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I have probably been overstating my point (sorry!), but for me, it boils down to a couple things:
1) Syntactically, I much prefer C#. This is 100% opinion and probably meaningless, but IMO you can tell C# was designed recently with a strong emphasis on combining the best features of many languages. VB.Net feels very much like they crammed an old language paradigm onto a new technology stack. (Little things, like the way For loops are constructed in VB, drive me nuts!)
Well i don't disagree i much prefer the C# syntax i like its terseness and when i switch between one and the other (for work) it is always when i am in a VB.Net project that i end up writing C# by accident rather than the other way round!
Saying that i am not sure that makes it a better language or not!
Quote:
2) The unsafe keyword is extremely useful in my line of work, so for me, that's a major loss in VB.Net.
Aha Pointers, so if you end up using unmanaged C++ dll's in your projects then of course you must use C# over VB.NET.
Quote:
3) 3rd-party libraries was the wrong wording, I think. My apologies. I was lumping that in with "code samples", e.g. "open-source libraries", not compiled libraries. One need only compare the number of source code lines available at an open-source aggregator like OpenHub:
C# open-source projects: 871,129,246 lines of code
VB open-source projects: 49,205,300 lines of code
Not only is there 20x more C# code out there, the VB total includes both VB.Net and VB6. Pretty sad.
Yes although i wonder sometimes if there is a bit of snobbery at play here. VB still has an image problem amongst some coders, and C# is just seen as cooler particularly in the open source community
Again i am not sure that makes it a better language.
Quote:
4) On average, C# jobs pay some $5k more than VB jobs, at least in the U.S. If you can switch between both languages with ease, that's awesome and the best way to go. But C# skills seem to be valued more highly.
Hmm i would tend to agree in the UK on the whole its similar, but once again i don't see how this make it a better language
Quote:
5) All the new toys come to C# first. You can tell it's the first-class .NET citizen (as it should be, IMO, given all the numbers above). While VB.Net eventually gains most those features, if you can use both languages, I just don't see any reason to go with VB.Net over C#.
The Framework is fairly mature now, most new features have arrived and are in both languages. I agree that this definitively used to be a big thing, however i am not sure it is anymore!
So summing up Apart from Pointers (unsafe code - which is one of the true differences between the languages) most of your points seem to be about the development community around the language and which is the best for jobs.
Both of these are valid points and i would even say they will guide some people when making decisions on what to use, however i am not convinced we should be saying the C# is superior just as a language to VB.Net.
Its all the stuff that comes with it that makes me prefer C#, and your first point, i personally just prefer the syntax!
Saying that there are some talented VB.Net programmers on this forum who can do anything i could do with C# in VB and as they prefer the VB Syntax i don't think they should be looked down on :)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Calling that a "declarative language" is just aggrandizing the mundane. The relevance is zero.
For that matter VB6 uses just as much of a "declarative language" in specifying user interfaces:
Code:
Begin VB.Form Form2
BorderStyle = 1 'Fixed Single
ClientHeight = 4020
ClientLeft = 45
ClientTop = 375
ClientWidth = 5580
BeginProperty Font
Name = "Tahoma"
Size = 9
Charset = 0
Weight = 400
Underline = 0 'False
Italic = 0 'False
Strikethrough = 0 'False
EndProperty
Icon = "Form2.frx":0000
LinkTopic = "Form2"
MaxButton = 0 'False
MinButton = 0 'False
ScaleHeight = 4020
ScaleWidth = 5580
ShowInTaskbar = 0 'False
StartUpPosition = 3 'Windows Default
Visible = 0 'False
Begin VB.CommandButton cmdCancel
Cancel = -1 'True
Caption = "Cancel"
Height = 495
Left = 4200
TabIndex = 17
Top = 3420
Width = 1215
End
Begin VB.TextBox txtField
Height = 375
Index = 2
Left = 960
TabIndex = 5
Top = 1080
Width = 2055
End
.
.
.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I'm saying it's all meaningless, like giving a blob of peanut butter to a dog and calling its mouth movements "talking" - little sound and nothing of relevance is produced.
What do you mean, wasn't that act on last weeks Britain's Got Talent ? :D
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
@FunkyDexter, @NeedSomeAnswers:
Sorry to lump your posts together but they are both really good, and I completely agree. Thank you for the insightful observations.
I definitely don't mean to imply that VB.Net developers are in any way inferior (I still use VB6 for some projects, so how hypocritical would that be?). I'm just beating my never-ending drum about VB having image issues, which creates a nasty chicken-and-egg problem:
Developers don't produce interesting, quality projects using VB...
...so the development community doesn't take VB seriously...
...so less developers use VB...
...so developers don't produce interesting, quality projects using VB...
etc.
I realize I'm becoming a horribly obnoxious broken record, but I think the only way to break this cycle is for VB developers to start showing off what we can do. We tend to be an insular group, sticking to VB-specific communities, which doesn't help to improve the wider perception of VB. We should be participating more in the open-source scene, producing our own interesting projects, and IMO, spending more time writing great code instead of arguing amongst ourselves. (On that, I'm with Niya 100%!)
I really do think VB is capable of great things, and even though it sometimes bugs me as a language, I'm committed to (trying to) produce interesting stuff with it, if only to improve its reputation among the wider coding community.
This is also why I don't buy into the argument of "C# is capable of great things, therefore VB is capable of great things." Even though it's technically true, it doesn't do anything to improve perception of VB or VB developers. We have to produce good code/projects with VB, instead of simply relying on C# to make us look good.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Calling that a "declarative language" is just aggrandizing the mundane.
It's calling it by it's correct name. I'm not sure where you get any aggrandizement from that.
Quote:
VB6 uses just as much of a "declarative language"
No argument there. Nobody said VB6 could not be used in a declarative form.
From the VB6 forms example, though, I do think you're still missing the point of how and why XAML is used. You wouldn't typically declare in the XAML that a particular element is to be displayed on a label using bold font. Instead you'd simply declare the value of the element and a level of importance - the UI then decides how to display that. This is exactly the same principle as the <H1> to <H6> tags in HTML - they merely dictate the level of importance a UI should imbue the element with when it renders, they don't attempt to define how that level of importance should be imbued to the end user. I'm using importance as an arbitrary example of a property here but it can, of course, be any property of the object that is relevant. None of this is new to the web world but it is, perhaps, less common in the desktop world.
The point of a set up like WPF over XAML and the advantage it can have over a more traditional Winforms approach is that it can provide an absolute separation between model and UI that Winforms don't enforce. In a Winforms approach either the view must understand the model in order to interpret the attributes of the elements it is rendering or the model must understand the view in order to set the view elements properties according to the properties of the model elements.
edit>I believe you're heavily into the Web World which has enjoyed this kind of separation pretty much since the get go so I appreciate there's an element of me teaching you to suck eggs here. You do seem to be missing the importance of that separation, though, if you cannot appreciate why it just as relevant to the desktop world.
Quote:
I think the only way to break this cycle is for VB developers to start showing off what we can do
+1 to that. I guess the problem is that someone has to be the first penguin and they're going to emotionally munched on by the killer whales out there - it's not an attractive proposition. Personally, I've kinda given up on improving VB (.net or 6)'s image and I take a pretty selfish view: if I wanna look good I reach for C#, Entity Frameworks, MVC and Code First approaches; if I don't care about looking good I reach for whichever tool gets me paid. I've recently been put forward for a SQL Server BI contract where they use lots of VBA. I'll admit that when it goes on my CV I'm probably going to talk up the use of SQLServer's BI elements and the VBA will get played down or may not even get mentioned, but I'm certainly not going to sit in front of that client and tell 'em they're stoopid to be using VBA 'cause it's, like, soooo 90s. I'll just break out my old manuals (because there's a woeful dearth of good VBA examples on the Net these days) to make sure I can still cut it and get on with delivering what they want.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
My only point was - to prove a point.
The point was that when somebody parrots meaningless drivel in the attempt to look knowledgable you jump to his defense as soon as anyone calls BS on it... as long as he's part of the .Net Club here.
Success.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
<Sigh> You called BS on something that wasn't BS. It wouldn't have mattered who'd made your post or who it was in response to, I would have responded in kind. I was responding to your incorrect assertion, not Niya's correct one.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Well to add something relevant for a change... ;)
It might belong in a thread of its own but this looks curious:
Microsoft Releases Visual Studio Code IDE For Linux, Mac And Windows
While still quite immature, it suggests a possible direction at Microsoft.
Quote:
What is difficult to find out is exactly what sorts of projects VSCode supports. If you define supports as offering IntelliSense prompting then the list is quite short:
JavaScript, JSON, HTML, CSS, LESS, SASS
If you relax the requirements to syntax coloring then you get:
C++, jade, PHP, Python, XML, Batch, F#, DockerFile, Coffee Script, Java, HandleBars, R, Objective-C, PowerShell, Lua, Visual Basic, Markdown
In fact there are only two languages that get full support and these are C# and TypeScript/Node.js. The target project types are ASP.NET 5 and Node.js.
In fact if you take it down to what types of project can you debug on all platforms then the answer is just Node.js.
Microsoft link: Why Visual Studio Code?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
The point was that when somebody parrots meaningless drivel in the attempt to look knowledgable you jump to his defense as soon as anyone calls BS on it...
Really ?:-
Quote:
Many markup languages such as HTML, MXML, XAML, XSLT or other user-interface markup languages are often declarative. HTML, for example, only describes what should appear on a webpage - it does not specify control flow neither of rendering a page nor of its possible interactions with a user.
It's becoming clear why you and your ilk never seem to understand a thing I say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
as long as he's part of the .Net Club here.
God, this thread is just full of childishness. You're projecting, just because you're cliquish doesn't mean we in the ".Net Club" are. Man, you're really taking this VB6 vs VB.Net thing to heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
knowledgable
Since we're now correcting each other now. Might I return the favor and correct something that's actually wrong. Its spelled k-n-o-w-l-e-d-g-e-a-b-l-e.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
Since we're now correcting each other now.
...and one of those 'now's is superfluous... ;)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
I have probably been overstating my point (sorry!), but for me, it boils down to a couple things:
1) Syntactically, I much prefer C#. This is 100% opinion and probably meaningless, but IMO you can tell C# was designed recently with a strong emphasis on combining the best features of many languages. VB.Net feels very much like they crammed an old language paradigm onto a new technology stack. (Little things, like the way For loops are constructed in VB, drive me nuts!)
VB.Net was obviously an attempt to attract VB6 developers. It probably feels like 'an old language paradigm onto a new technology stack' because of this. Remember C# was invented for .Net which is probably why it feels more natural than VB.Net. VB.Net was the result of trying to mold the VB language into something that can play in the .Net world. They probably had to make a lot of compromises to achieve that goal while trying to retain the essence of VB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
2) The unsafe keyword is extremely useful in my line of work, so for me, that's a major loss in VB.Net.
I think I read somewhere that having pointers wasn't in the spirit of VB or something which is why it was excluded. Don't quote me on this though. I'm really not sure why they didn't include pointers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
That's not actually as bad a thing as you're making it out to be. A VB.Net programmer is a C# programmer. When I was learning how to use VB.Net, I learned almost exclusively through C# examples since, as you say, there are far more of. They're just languages. They target the exact same framework. Something done in C# can be done the exact same way in VB.Net. What I'm saying is that you can look at projects in both languages as one type of project, .Net projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
4) On average,
C# jobs pay some $5k more than VB jobs, at least in the U.S. If you can switch between both languages with ease, that's awesome and the best way to go. But C# skills seem to be valued more highly.
There always existed an elitist mentality towards programmers who take any form of BASIC seriously. Much of the most important software in the world is written in languages like C/C++, ASM, Ada and such. These people have always been snobbish towards BASIC. Can't say I really blame them. BASIC was invented as way to make programming more accessible to the average PC user through appeal of its sheer simplicity. I learned BASIC as a child and I remember trying to learn C and not being able to understand a thing about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
5) All the new toys come to C# first. You can tell it's the first-class .NET citizen (as it should be, IMO, given all the numbers above). While VB.Net eventually gains most those features, if you can use both languages, I just don't see any reason to go with VB.Net over C#.
VB.Net's XML Literals are a powerful feature that doesn't exist in C#....yet. Besides that, while C# to my eyes is a far more elegant language than VB.Net, I still prefer to write code in VB. The case sensitivity and semicolons drive me insane. Also, the IDE's intellisense seems more intelligent when dealing with VB code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
I've
started threads about this before, but one of my big curiosities is why people aren't doing more interesting things in VB. (Any flavor, .NET or classic.) If C# and VB.Net were truly interchangeable, I'd expect to see roughly equal development in both languages, but 20x more code for C#... I don't know, the numbers seem speak for themselves.
Again, the elitist mentality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
Anyway, hope that helps clarify my previous points. I'm a big open-source participant so I would *love* to see more great code written in VB. But open-source VB projects are extremely hard to come by.
That may never happen. As long as BASIC and its derivatives have the reputation of being a toy language, people thinking about serious projects aren't going to think of doing them in VB.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColinE66
...and one of those 'now's is superfluous... ;)
And you can't start a sentence with a period. ;)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Niya
And you can't start a sentence with a period. ;)
I didn't. I started with three periods and three periods is an ellipsis. :P
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NeedSomeAnswers
...
Yes although i wonder sometimes if there is a bit of snobbery at play here. VB still has an image problem amongst some coders, and C# is just seen as cooler particularly in the open source community
Again i am not sure that makes it a better language.
...
It's [C#] not a better language, just more popular. Also, there was a migration of C++ and C programmers - and a whole host of other obscure languages such as Fortran, Cobol, etc. - to C#.
Without C#, VB(.NET) would probably be more popular than it is, as it would be the easy way into .NET. With C#, it became overwhelmingly the language/environment of choice for windows: C++ programming is still horrible, and the vast majority of desktop (or UI) apps have no necessity to be in C++.
VB is still seen as a toy language. When a curious non-programmer asks what language a program was written in, and you say VB, there's at least a look of astonishment or exclamation ('Really?!'), as VB (sic) is often equated with Excel and Word scripting that your average clerk should be doing.
Employers hiring programmers often don't know programmers. HR departments also equate VB with basic Excel automation, while real programmers know languages starting with C, thus a higher salary. Specifically, will you hire a programmer or someone who knows VB? Unfair, perhaps, but that's where it is.
What reason would a C programmer want to play up VB? As far as they are concerned, it's a completely unnecessary language, and, as noted, commands a larger pay structure.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Employers hiring programmers often don't know programmers. HR departments also equate VB with basic Excel automation, while real programmers know languages starting with C, thus a higher salary. Specifically, will you hire a programmer or someone who knows VB? Unfair, perhaps, but that's where it is.
True Dat. While I do prefer the C# syntax the real reason I use C# these days is simply because it puts more money in my pocket. The worst thing is trying to explain all this crap to recruiters. Here's a recent conversation I had (admittedly paraphrased):-
Have you used BIDS?
Yes.
It doesn't say that on your CV.
No but it does list SSIS, SSRS and SSAS. The BIDS bit is kinda implied.
Oh, well client is asking for BIDS.
Yes, I know, I have BIDS and the client will understand that from the skills listed.
It needs to be on your CV.
Fine
And have you used SQL?
Yes, it says so right there look. TSQL
It needs to say SQL
AAaaargggh!
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SJWhiteley
It's [C#] not a better language, just more popular. Also, there was a migration of C++ and C programmers - and a whole host of other obscure languages such as Fortran, Cobol, etc. - to C#.
Without C#, VB(.NET) would probably be more popular than it is, as it would be the easy way into .NET. With C#, it became overwhelmingly the language/environment of choice for windows: C++ programming is still horrible, and the vast majority of desktop (or UI) apps have no necessity to be in C++.
VB is still seen as a toy language. When a curious non-programmer asks what language a program was written in, and you say VB, there's at least a look of astonishment or exclamation ('Really?!'), as VB (sic) is often equated with Excel and Word scripting that your average clerk should be doing.
Employers hiring programmers often don't know programmers. HR departments also equate VB with basic Excel automation, while real programmers know languages starting with C, thus a higher salary. Specifically, will you hire a programmer or someone who knows VB? Unfair, perhaps, but that's where it is.
What reason would a C programmer want to play up VB? As far as they are concerned, it's a completely unnecessary language, and, as noted, commands a larger pay structure.
All too true.
One of my selfish reasons for wanting to improve the perception of VB is that it *is* frustrating to leave it off a CV. Even if it's not my language of choice, I've still done thousands of hours of work with it, and it's obnoxious to have to downplay it (or worse, leave it off entirely) out of fear that a recruiter will make snap judgments.
@FunkyDexter
That story is equal parts hilarious and horrifying. :eek: I wonder how many employees that company missed because their recruiter has no idea what he's doing.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I had another conversation recently which was probably worse. I think I mentioned further up the thread that I've gone forward for a BI contract that also uses VBA. The recruiter saw I had VB.Net and C# on my CV so said, ah, they're not looking for .Net, they want VBA. I pointed out that I also had about 8 years worth of VB6 and VBA listed quite clearly my CV but the recruiter just couldn't seem to get past the presence of .Net. They seemed to have an assumption that knowledge of either one would be mutually exclusive with knowledge of the other. Thankfully I'd already seen that another recruiter was also attempting to fill the same role so I told the first not to bother and contacted the second.
I think there might be more to that story, though. The rate on offer was very good and I suspect they'd had loads of .Net programmers who had no Classic trying to chance it. The recruiter didn't understand the difference so had put a bunch forward only to have them refused as inappropriate. That's my hunch anyway.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Holy coincidence, Batman!
I was just conversing with a programmer who works on other systems at the plant I work at. They were impressed with one of the HMIs I created, and asked what language it was programmed in.
I said "VB".
"Really?! Why didn't you use C#?"
...
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I'm amazed at how many professional developers don't know the difference between VB6 and VB.Net. Most seem to equate the two (which I guess isn't surprising, if they never had direct experience with them).
We saw this with that StackOverflow survey recently, where perceptions about programming languages only asked about "Visual Basic", with no distinction between the two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dilettante
I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts, but I played with it last week and was pretty disappointed. It's basically a crappier version of Notepad++, and IMO it needs a lot of improvements before anyone could use it for serious work. (Unless a person works solely with Node.js, I guess.)
I'm all for Microsoft's new direction, but I'm worried that this ongoing emphasis on "open development" is really just a cover for "pushing half-baked software out the door." Visual Studio Code should have baked for a few more months, I think.
(Also, whoever does their branding should be fired. "Visual Studio Code" is a ridiculously confusing name.)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Can't say I've used it but if that article is accurate (and I always treat them with a healthy of dose of scepticism) then it's a shame. One thing that MS have always done well is an ide so to hear one described as a crappier version of Notepad++ seems truly bizarre.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
We saw this with that StackOverflow survey recently, where perceptions about programming languages only asked about "Visual Basic", with no distinction between the two.
Actually it makes sense when you think about it from a certain perspective. If you're talking about programming languages in general, remember there are countless languages that cover just about every domain and platform imaginable. From such a wide perspective, VB is just VB. Doesn't really matter if its VB6 or VB.Net. They both solve the same problems on the same platform using the same syntax. If I made a survey like that, I wouldn't make that distinction either.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FunkyDexter
Can't say I've used it but if that article is accurate (and I always treat them with a healthy of dose of scepticism) then it's a shame. One thing that MS have always done well is an ide so to hear one described as a crappier version of Notepad++ seems truly bizarre.
As it is, it just exists in such a weird void. If you're using Visual Studio, there is absolutely zero reason to use it. (Unless you want some kind of half-baked, micro-Visual Studio environment on OSX or Linux...? How big is that market?)
If you're not developing on Windows, you probably have an IDE you already like. Learning a new IDE is a huge pain, and VS Code is currently worthless for most devs, as the supported language list is so miniscule.
The promise of future extensibility is neat, and I assume that's why Microsoft released it - so outsiders can start working on plugins to make it useful - but IDK, I have to agree with the linked article's sentiment of "the real question is why?"
(As I said, I'd love to hear other's thoughts and apologies for making it sound so unappealing. I just had high hopes given Microsoft's advertising for it, and found the program incredibly underwhelming by comparison.)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
I agree the "why" would be interesting to know.
The current state of "VS Code" is pretty bad. I'm sure that a lot of things get developed and then never see the light of day and are dropped. But there must be reasons why this one got out the door and featured at Build.
They even gave it a second "home page" at: https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/p...s/code-vs.aspx
Of course they do call it a Public Preview rather than a finished product too, being version 0.1.0 and only available for the last week or so.
Just saw this:
Visual Studio Code: A Deep Dive on the Redefined Code Editor for OS X, Linux and Windows
Haven't watched the video yet though.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
VS Code appears to be built using Electron.
See What is the Visual Studio Code editor built on?
If you are comfortable with web development and/or look at JavaScript as "the new Basic" you might find Electron of interest in itself. I'm not sure it is a contender as a replacement for Basic as a hobby/casual programming system, but there sure is still a real need for such a thing.
That could be a big part of why VB5/VB6 are still so popular. That and Office VBA experience, which translates over to VB so easily.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
For those who have not had the pleasure of using WPF/XAML...
The CONTROL CLASS inherits from the DISPATCHER CLASS!
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...v=vs.110).aspx
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Most objects in WPF derive from DispatcherObject, which provides the basic constructs for dealing with concurrency and threading. WPF is based on a messaging system implemented by the dispatcher.
If you totally give in to WPF you end up with XAML defining behavior based on data, so that all your program does is push data into the form - and the XAML makes sense of it.
Quote:
WPF is designed to allow you to create dynamic, data driven presentation systems. Every part of the system is designed to create objects through property sets that drive behavior. Data binding is a fundamental part of the system, and is integrated at every layer.
Traditional applications create a display and then bind to some data. In WPF, everything about the control, every aspect of the display, is generated by some type of data binding. The text found inside a button is displayed by creating a composed control inside of the button and binding its display to the button’s content property.
I've only written an app for demo to VC's in WPF - nothing commercial yet.
Having spent time in XAML I've learned how to use jQuery to hook data into the dom and make my web app work like a winform. Exactly what WPF/XAML does - just my own homegrown markup (becoming proficient in WPF/xaml markup is a whole life experience)...
And that whole jQuery/JS frontend has a VB.NET backend - I'll be a penguin - I make big bucks selling software with large parts of VB.Net in the backend.
And for the 15 years up to now I did that same stuff with VB6.
I still make most of my annual maintenance dollars from VB6 clients! Might not sell new VB6 work - but still support tons of users.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
The difference with Electron/Atom-Shell and similar schemes (NW.js) is you can create actual desktop applications.
There is no need for a browser, no limitations on local system access, and no need for a server. Everything is in one "box" using a Chromium engine for the GUI, a native-access API for local storage and such, and Node.js as the server... skipping even the need for TCP/HTTP by coupling Chromium directly to Node (via libchromiumcontent).
This is unrelated to "the web" as such at all, designed for a different use case: desktop applications.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts, but I played with it last week and was pretty disappointed. It's basically a crappier version of Notepad++, and IMO it needs a lot of improvements before anyone could use it for serious work. (Unless a person works solely with Node.js, I guess.)
I'm all for Microsoft's new direction, but I'm worried that this ongoing emphasis on "open development" is really just a cover for "pushing half-baked software out the door." Visual Studio Code should have baked for a few more months, I think.
Well i am less disappointed. for 3 reasons
1, I see this as more evidence that MS is pushing in the right direction. Cross Platform and Web
2, The app may not be very usable yet but isn't that how agile iterative releases work. Get a working Editor out that does stuff, then keep releasing updates to improve and build on what you have got.
3, One thing MS does well is code Editors, Visual Studio has got significantly better over time with new releases, so i have some confidence that they will improve it!
Quote:
(Also, whoever does their branding should be fired. "Visual Studio Code" is a ridiculously confusing name.)
Agree with that its a crap name with to little distinguishing it from VS itself!
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanner_H
but IMO you can tell C# was designed recently with a strong emphasis on combining the best features of many languages.
I'd like to hear more on this statement, because I feel the exact opposite about the whole C family of languages. To me, C, C++, Java, JS, and other languages in the C syntactic family are all carrying baggage from the 60s and 70s, and could be imporved if they could shed that baggage (such as case sensitivity). So, I'd like to know what features suggest a recent design. Upon further reflection, there are some features in the language that are more modern, and they often came to C# ahead of VB (such as LINQ and lambdas), but is that the type of thing you are talking about?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Guys, take a look at this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nerval's Lobster @ Slashdot
In a posting that recently
attracted some buzz online, .NET developer Justin Angel (a former program manager for Silverlight) argued that the .NET ecosystem is headed for collapse—and that could take interest in C# along with it. "Sure, you'll always be able to find a job working in C# (like you would with COBOL), but you'll miss out on customer reach and risk falling behind the technology curve," he wrote. But is C# really on the decline?
According to Dice's data, the popularity of C# has risen over the past several years; it ranks No. 26 on Dice's ranking of most-searched terms. But Angel claims he pulled data from Indeed.com that shows job trends for C# on the decline. Data from the TIOBE developer interest index mirrors that trend, he said, with "C# developer interest down approximately 60% down back to 2006-2008 levels." Is the .NET ecosystem really headed for long-term implosion, thanks in large part to developers devoting their energies to other platforms such as iOS and Android?
So what do you say about it - is that a false alarm?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Not sure this is the right place for this since this post is supposed to be about a new VB6, but his numbers seem off.
For example, if you go into tiobe right now and check C#, he seems to have cut his results off during a downward spike. Looking at it now, C# has jumped back up to a level it has been pretty consistent at since 2012.
Job trends seems to show a similar decline. There was a large decline when he made his post, but it has been going back up since.
I think the more interesting question would be: what happened in February that seems to have caused a downward crash? And then what happened earlier this year to bring it back up?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
What do i say about that post, well it tells us everything we already know!
Quote:
"Sure, you'll always be able to find a job working in C#
Those of us working with .Net will generally always be in work as most companies are generally behind the technology curve.
Quote:
Is the .NET ecosystem really headed for long-term implosion, thanks in large part to developers devoting their energies to other platforms such as iOS and Android?
Slow Long-term decline would be a better term, desktop development is very slowly declining.
Web and Mobile development are the way thing are going and have been going for some time now, any younger developer would be well advised to be looking to pick up skills in this space, which for now at least C# is still a part of with ASP.Net
How .Net Core plays out will go some way to deciding if C# will continue long term in the web and mobile space
Does this mean C# is dead or about to implode? no not at all and the article has the feel of one of those that are trying to generate publicity for itself by predicting the death of something or other !
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Seems odd to me to compare a library of PC API functions to coding for Android or IOS.
If you are coding for a PC in C# with .Net how is Android replacing that paradigm?
If you are moving to another hardware platform (Android) then it's a PLATFORM move - not a programming language move.
When I'm coding desktop it's .Net server / JS frontend. When I need a mobile app I code it on an Android device - using a similar C-syntax.
The event and programming model of an Android device is very different then a Winform - you obviously need a library that's particular to the device.
.Net rules a realm that might be shrinking. It certainly can't be compared to COBOL - that hardware platform stopped growing 30+ years ago. I can still find contract work in COBOL at my local Anthem insurance house.
When PC use increased in the 80's and 90's you would have been stupid to not explore coding in the realm.
Now that we have Android and IOS you would be smart to explore coding in this new realm.
How you can beat up .Net in that discussion makes little sense to me.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
There may be a decline in desktops, but it's from a 100% level. Sales of desktop systems are declining, and sales of tablets and smart phones are increasing, but both of these trends ignore a few points. For example, tablets and smart phones are relatively recent, so they are going to HAVE to increase. Furthermore, the rate of change in desktop hardware has leveled off. In the 80s and 90s, each new generation of desktop gave the end user a notable increase in power: Your spreadsheet would calculate noticeably faster, your word processor worked more smoothly and did more, and so forth. That has all ended. Hard drives might last for a decade, or more, and any new computer will run the same software and run it almost identically to your old one. There may be improvements, but the end user isn't seeing most of them because typical software doesn't benefit noticeably from those improvements.
So, I would expect a rise in tablet and smart phone because the level was ZERO not too long ago, and up is about the only direction possible from there. I would also expect a decline in desktops because the impetus for new purchases is waning. The bigger question is whether or not the desktop is being replaced by the tablet, and the answer to that is absolutely NOT, at least in the areas where many of us make our money. Those of us writing LOB applications are not seeing desktops being replaced by iPads. There may be tablets coming in as a complementary tool, but not a straight up replacement. I'm now writing for tablets, but the tablets are replacing paper and pencil for field data collection, not the desktop for data analysis and report writing.
So, the trends of declining desktops and increasing tablets are both true and irrelevant.The real picture is more complicated than the simplistic formulas put forward by people whose existence is predicated on having an opinion about the future.
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
How about working intellisense or breakpoints that are predictable (in some cases, the execution path of code with a breakpoint was different than it is when there isn't a breakpoint, which was a bug I reported to MS in VB6, to which they replied: It's a fact of life, live with it...though they fixed it in .NET).
Anyways, do whatever you want. I'm pretty happy with the way it is now, and it sounds like you are too, so it's all good. However, I would point out that app load time isn't any different for comparable apps. Load time for the IDE gets slower with each version, and more features get added with each version (though all the really valuable fruit was plucked generations back, so we are getting slower load time for increasingly dubious benefits).
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Can someone tell me where the bathroom is ?
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shaggy Hiker
Load time for the IDE gets slower with each version.
Even so there are settings that can speed up IDE load time. (Default settings are not optimized for speed.)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
Finally, some good news from Microsoft about future of VB6 on Windows: http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapp...bility-bridges
"And yes, everyone’s favorite VB6 Runtime will continue to work, too." Wohoo! :D
We should leave a comment there (I already did) to say thanks. :)
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Re: What if there was a NEW vb6
A good comment by Chuck:
Lots of folks wonder why MS moved away from VB6 (or as they say moved on). I think the decision was partnered with the profession of programming. VB from beginning to VB6 made windows programming accessible to almost anyone. Not toss away programs but science and business all the way up to corporate and industrial type programs. A VB6 programmer didn't have to be a computer science graduate or have any MS programming certificates to make a living coding real world money making apps. In fact VB6 enabled the client to also be the programmer. A tool like that was clearly a threat to the programming community. MS would rather relegate "anyone programming" to useless programming using SmallBasic.
All I read currently is how MS needs a win for Windows 10 and for that they need a large user base to (thus the free upgrade) to inspire developers to make programs for Windows 10. I think MS fails to realize what made Windows great (in in many cases indispensable) in the past (and even now) was the vast world wide use of VB6 and the many "novice" and professionals programming windows apps because of not only the RAD but the ability to scale from RAD all in the same VB6 IDE.
MS needs an active novice to professional development platform again and it would do well to bring back VB6 with some enhancements to work in 64bit and with the new OS 7-10.
