LightFusion™

well two ideas for the c parser:
1. - instead of -
if ()
{
}

- one could say -
if ()
}

2. drop the requirement to put ; at end of the statements.

by default the parser could be this way, and to turn the functionality off, use some kind of in-code switch

You don't even need the } on the end. Do as Python, use indentation to tell what belongs to what. That FORCES the programmer to be nice and dandy when it comes to indentation.




- ØØ -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dafhi

1. - instead of -
if ()
{
}

- one could say -
if ()
}

---

And that is different from
if () {
}
how? Whitespace savings ~= 0
Not to mention that most modern text editors can highlight matching parenthese-like characters - but what if there is no matching pair?

Quote:

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2. drop the requirement to put ; at end of the statements.

---

I believe they already plan that, but that's practically no savings. Not to mention that being able to put more than one statement on one line can be an advantage in some cases. Whitespace savings = 0

Quote:

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by default the parser could be this way, and to turn the functionality off, use some kind of in-code switch

---

Very bad idea. This means that a source file can be in more than one syntax, and you always have to check what mode the current source is in, so that you don't make syntax errors. Not to mention that these errors could be very obfuscated. Take a look at this hypothetical C++ code with your changes:

Code:

---

namespace freaky

void do_or_do_not()
}

}

---

This code can no longer reliably be top-down parsed. Just before reaching the second closing brace, this code could mean either of:

Code:

---

namespace funky {

void do_or_do_not() // Empty function definition.
{
} // Function end

// } yet to come

---

Or (because ; is not required):

Code:

---

namespace funky {

void do_or_do_not(); // Function declaration.

} // Namespace end

// Next } will be syntax error

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NoteMe

You don't even need the } on the end. Do as Python, use indentation to tell what belongs to what. That FORCES the programmer to be nice and dandy when it comes to indentation.
- ØØ -

---

And it wreaks havoc on code meaning if the programmer posts it here and forgets the code tags. I don't like indentation-dependent languages very much. Had a weird bug in Haskell with this once.

Actually I plan on using {} as blocks for good reason, dafhi. Having a partial block () } is not good, as Cornedbee put it. { would indicate the beginning of a code block, and } would indicate the end of a code block. Having no beginning or end could confuse the compiler, and I don't want that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dafhi

well two ideas for the c parser:
1. - instead of -
if ()
{
}

- one could say -
if ()
}

2. drop the requirement to put ; at end of the statements.

by default the parser could be this way, and to turn the functionality off, use some kind of in-code switch

---

Thanks for your suggestions dafhi, but as CornedBee pointed out, reducing white space is useless and actually a bad thing in most cases. Having more white space makes things readable. And the LENGTH of the source code doesn't matter at all (for the most part).

Ok guys. What font should I use for the IDE?


Microsoft Sans Serif - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?

Arial - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?

Tahoma - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?

Verdana - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog or something like that?



As you can see verdana is what VBF uses, but I think Tahoma might be better for compactness.

What does VB6 and Visual Studio.NET use?

VB default is MS San Serif and I am fairly sure it uses that on the IDE itself also. I have no idea as far as VB.NET.

why dont have an option to change the fonts? default should be arial or tohoma

You should have an option to change the font. Let the font be independant from the functionality of the IDE. If you want to insert some fixed width font for formatting, the IDE should remember your choice for output. Rather than having to set properties, the IDE could just use the last selected settings.

Just a thought.

Thats fine. But I am reffering mostly to the controls. I don't really want to allow the changing of the font of EVERY control (menus, statusbar, buttons, command buttons, etc.) although that is a possibility. I guess my question is more to the effect of "What should the default font be. I can make things customizable later on.

The source editing window is already in courier new and that can be changed later on as well.

Tahoma is Windows standard.

Is it? I thought it was MS Sans Serif or something. I guess that looks about right. So should I use that for the default font for the IDE?

visual basic doesn't make you type

Sub MySub()
Begin Sub
End Sub

regarding the semicolon, i did not say require that the programmer DOESNT type it

MS Sans Serif is the default, but according to the "GUI Experience guidelines" (or whatever it's called) as of Win 2K to XP, Tahoma is the standard font. You'll find all the Microsoft apps use it. I don't think there should be an option to change it, only the code editor fonts. As I've said I always use Lucida Console as my fixed-width font, but fonts and colours in the editor should all be customisable (as they are in VS).

not sure if this has already been mentioned:
the IDE should include automatic indenting and possibly automatic code completion to make coding faster.

It will. Just wait and see. All the credit goes to Joacim Andersson though. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dafhi

visual basic doesn't make you type

Sub MySub()
Begin Sub
End Sub

regarding the semicolon, i did not say require that the programmer DOESNT type it

---

We already worked out most of the syntax, dafhi, within this thread. Right now we are creating the IDE. Bear in mind, this isn't Visual Basic we are designing here. We are simplifying the syntax by fusing C++ with VB, with a twist of our own style. In VB, there were many problems with the syntax. Like for example, the If statements:

VB Code:

If a = 0 Then
 
    a = a + 2
 
End If

Now instead of using Then and 2 words End If, it could have been simplified to this:

Code:

---

If a = 0 {

    a += 2

}

---

Makes things easier, and faster that way. ;)

$0.02:

1. I think the GUI should be the very last thing you do, use a commandline compiler while you are still designing. Once you are happy with your language syntax then you can write your GUi around it. Then you can even call your commandline compiler from the GUI saves you having to incorporate it into the GUI.

2. The font you use for your code should be a monospace font. This lets you align code more easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wossname

$0.02:

1. I think the GUI should be the very last thing you do, use a commandline compiler while you are still designing. Once you are happy with your language syntax then you can write your GUi around it. Then you can even call your commandline compiler from the GUI saves you having to incorporate it into the GUI.

---

We have discussed this many times. The only reason we AREN'T doing this is because Jake is doing all the compiler work at the moment and I am doing the IDE because I have nothing better to be doing until we get a little way into this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wossname

2. The font you use for your code should be a monospace font. This lets you align code more easily.

---

I was reffering to the font of the controls and such. I gues I will use Tahoma. Courier New will be the default for the code windows (with many options to change it.)

I feel like I'm a bit a neccesity in this project it seems cause everyone on the team is expecting me to do all the compiler and linker work! It seems the book I got is not enough to get one going, and I'm gonna be needing more books on the subject, but it would help if the rest of the team bought books on making compilers/linkers as well, so we can all work on it together. Or maybe found some decent links on the subject.

I think it's best to work on the IDE first. Mainly to at least get a code window going and not so much a form window w/objects to place on, hence the GUI. That way there we have something to work with, and we can scan and parse the syntax from that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

I feel like I'm a bit a neccesity in this project it seems cause everyone on the team is expecting me to do all the compiler and linker work! It seems the book I got is not enough to get one going, and I'm gonna be needing more books on the subject, but it would help if the rest of the team bought books on making compilers/linkers as well, so we can all work on it together. Or maybe found some decent links on the subject.

---

Quote:

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I think it's best to work on the IDE first. Mainly to at least get a code window going and not so much a form window w/objects to place on, hence the GUI. That way there we have something to work with, and we can scan and parse the syntax from that.

---

I totally disagree Jake. Everyone knows what they are talking about when they say we should do the command line compiler first. Infact they NEED to be seperate. The parsing stuff should not be in the IDE AT ALL. The compiler needs to accept a file name as one of its parameters and the parsing is done in there.

If you need a temporary GUI to edit files in here is the best one out there (it even allows for setting up a command line compiler): http://www.brixoft.com (go to Source Edit).

They are gonna be separate. Just that the IDE was gonna help on typing the code and saving it to a file, then our compiler (which is separate) can compile from that file when we run the program.

I'm still waiting for my ASM book to arrive :(

Did you guys say you were going to enable inline ASM code? That would be really sweet.

There is a neat hack in the "CodeBank: Other" forum that lets you use ASM code in VB6 (and theoretically any language).

Yes, you will be able to use inline assembly in LightFusion. We are even supporting the Inline keyword for the subs and functions. ;)

I had to restart creating my IDE since I messed up on it big time, especially when adding the tool bar. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

They are gonna be separate. Just that the IDE was gonna help on typing the code and saving it to a file, then our compiler (which is separate) can compile from that file when we run the program.

---

Ok then why are you still working on the IDE? We need you on the compiler. Badly. Or this project will never go anywhere. I don't have the time to read a book on compiler theory and contribute that much in that area. I thought thats why you wanted to do it.

If you are going to do the compiler then do the compiler. Not the IDE and the compiler. Because if we both do an IDE then one of us is wasting a lot of time. I have access to custom controls a lot easier than you do (I mean VB has access easier than C++).

Especially since you say you had to restart the IDE, I suggest you just stop and attempt to start the compiler. At least work on the parsing stuff now. I still say we should just translate into ASM. That way the compiler and linker is done for us and we can just write an awesome precompiler with tons of optimizations. You can do that easily in C++ if you know what kind of ASM you are translating into.

I thought we figured this out ages ago?

Jake = Compiler

eyeRmonkey = IDE

Pena/Chem = Library

If we just stick to that then progress will be made... ;)

Oh and,

I've always found this a nice mathematical notation:

IDEA: If a is between 1 and 10

Code:

---

// Instead of
if (a > 1 && a < 10) { ... }

// I'd prefer this:
if (1 < a < 10) { ... }

---

How you'd implement it compiler-wise I'm not quite sure, but I think it's possible.

YES! I always want to use that too. I am used to doing it in math classes and I hate how much hard it is to do while programming.

I know this has been mentioned before, but I think we should also have:

Code:

---

//Instead of
If (a < V && a < C && a < D) Then ...

// Use this:
If (a < V,C,D) Then ...

---

Of course commas aren't the best way to impliment the idea, but you get the idea.

You should have the ?: operator too :D

That's one of my favourite things in C#

Code:

---

a = b < 0 ? 1 : b;

---

Compiles to the same assembly as:

Code:

---

if(b < 0)
a = 1;
else
a = b;

---

eyeRmonkey... would that also mean you could do this

Code:

---

if (A,B,C > 0,H,K,L) Then

---

where A will be compared to 0, H, K and L, as will B and C

I guess that comes with it, but in that situation you might find it is quicker to do this

Code:

---

if ((A+B+C) > (H+K+L))

---

that wouldnt work though

A=7
B=50
C=800

H=0
K=1
L=808

with your example would return TRUE.. when really it should be returning FALSE

My bad, you're correct.

I think that instead of a comma operator you should do what perl 6 does:

Code:

---

if (a > x | y | z)    ==    if (a > x || a > y || a > z)
if (a > x & y & z)    ==    if (a > x && a > y && a > z)

---

IMO this operator is a more usefull then bitwise operations. Perl6 defines something like .|. and .&. for that.

What is the difference between | and &? And I assume || and && are still logical OR and logical AND as usual?

| = bitwise OR
& = bitwise AND

Ummm ok. It doesn't look that way fromt he example above. It looks like he is mixxing bitwise and logical stuff. But he said it was perl6, so it opperators might be different.

Does anyone know the source code to make an exe for Windows, with no window or code except the code to end the app, which I think is int 21h? That alone will help me get a linker going. I'm also gonna make it to where the user has the choice of making it a stand alone exe or an exe that depends on a runtime library, and I'll even try to make it cross platform, so it can compile either for Windows, Max, or Linux, like RealBasic does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey

What is the difference between | and &? And I assume || and && are still logical OR and logical AND as usual?

---

They function like the , operator eyeRmonkey described:

Quote:

---

Code:

---

//Instead of
If (a < V && a < C && a < D) Then ...

// Use this:
If (a < V,C,D) Then ...

---

---

The comma operator only functions as a logical AND, in perl 6 this is done by the & operator (which has nothing to do with bitwise and anymore). You can also do the same with an OR instead using the | operator, so:

Code:

---

//Instead of
If (a < V && a < C && a < D) Then ...
// Use this:
If (a < V&C&D) Then ...

//Instead of
If (a < V || a < C || a < D) Then ...
// Use this:
If (a < V|C|D) Then ...

---

Again: this has absolutely nothing to do with bitwise operators.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

Does anyone know the source code to make an exe for Windows, with no window or code except the code to end the app, which I think is int 21h? That alone will help me get a linker going. I'm also gonna make it to where the user has the choice of making it a stand alone exe or an exe that depends on a runtime library, and I'll even try to make it cross platform, so it can compile either for Windows, Max, or Linux, like RealBasic does.

---

So you're working on a linker now? Can you update us on your progress? Have you stopped working on the IDE (I hope so...). How are you going to make the compiler (translated into asm, or use your book, or what)? What other things have you been up to?


I am doing good on the IDE. I originally wanted to MDI without the option of minimizing the windows (they would always be maximized and tabbed windows would be available) but I decided to ALLOW the MDI child windows to be minimized or moved BUT they would be maximized by default and whenever you load a project (group of files) they all start maximized (unless you uncheck an option on the options windows).

Does that sounds good or do you guys think I should make them always maximized like before? The reason I am considering that is because how often to you realistically take advantage of putting MDI child windows side by side or something? I never do.... EVER. I think it just a wast of space to do it otherwise and it makes windows hard to find. Having tabbed windows is a lot easier to manage.

I also am using the MenuExtender from vbcornet.net/eng. It makes the menus look awesome and has icons and everything.

The only thing I am having trouble with is the toolbar. I can't get one that is easy to work with (like the standard windows toolbars). But the standard ones don't work with XP styles (for me anyway -- and penagate). Any suggestions for a custom control for toolbars?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eyeRmonkey

So you're working on a linker now? Can you update us on your progress? Have you stopped working on the IDE (I hope so...). How are you going to make the compiler (translated into asm, or use your book, or what)? What other things have you been up to?

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Well I'm working on two things right now. A compiler and a linker. Since you guys wanted me to stop working on the IDE, I decided to leave it for now and let you work on it. I have the source in VB6 to parse exe's, but some modifications can help me get it to save exes. Then I gotta translate it to C++. This could get complicated. I wonder if RealBasic is open source. Would be nice.

Do you mean translate LF into C++ or translate the VB6 program into C++?

Good work though. Sound like you are on top of stuff.

I should have a mini version of the IDE done in a week or two. I will only be posting it as an EXE for a while because there are so many DLLs/OCXs and InnoScrtipt/InnoSetup gathers them nicely for me. :)

Jake/Penagte, can you guys read post #581 and tell me what you think about the MDI child windows and let me know if you have any suggestions about the toolbar issue. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

and I'll even try to make it cross platform, so it can compile either for Windows, Max, or Linux, like RealBasic does.

---

if LF is having DirectX integration, it won;t work for Mac/Linux.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

... and I'll even try to make it cross platform, so it can compile either for Windows, Max, or Linux, like RealBasic does.

---

I REALLY think we should just worry about Windows for the time being. Maybe LF 2.0 can have Mac/Linux support, but I really don't think we sould worry about it until we have more stuff done.

If the windows are are tabbed then they are always maxmised anyway ;)

Not sure about tabbed windows unless I see for myself, but it's a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by penagate

If the windows are are tabbed then they are always maxmised anyway ;)

---

Not true. Its not a typical tabbed setup. It is similar to the tabbed code windows link in my sig. Actually it is exactly the same control from vbAcc. It allows tabs that are hooked to your MDI child windows (wether maximized, or normal or whatever).

So what do you think penagate. I'm sure you will want to see them too, so I guess I will get your opinion after I post the .exe.

I don't think VBF likes it when you post an .exe, but some have gotten away with it. Most get deleted, though.

I'm familiar with all the vbAcc controls. Once you've maximised your MDI child window you can't restore it (not very easily/logically anyway). The idea is that you start with them maximised anyway so the user doesn't get confused. It seems to work better that way.

But, I'll reserve judgement until I see it :D

David, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe I will post an installation file just for the DLLs and put the rest in source code.

Penagate, that is true IF you turn of the control box on the MDI child windows. If the child has a control box then its min/max/close buttons show up in the menu bar at the top. You'll see soon. :)

Penagate, I saw the logo you made for JA! Awesome work. If you could make one for LF that was half as good it would look awesome. You don't really have to go off the theme I started. It also doesn't have to be done any time soon. All I ask is that you put some thought into it and try to think up something to make (I will do that same - I have been for a while). Your graphic skills rock, all you need is some motivation. ;)

PS - Do you have an icon maker?

Not really. I had a few dodgy ones somewhere, as well as VS.NET which is kind of sad at making icons.

I'll try and think of some more logo ideas.

Wo00o0ot! My ASM book just arrived :D Soon I'll be able to understand what you ASM hackers are on about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by penagate

I'll try and think of some more logo ideas.

---

Thanks. :)


Wossy, what assemlber does it reccomend you use?

Masm.

I have the LightFusion icon that I made in here:

http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.p...chmentid=40573

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wossname

Wo00o0ot! My ASM book just arrived :D Soon I'll be able to understand what you ASM hackers are on about.

---

You will never understand the complexities of the "hax0r", "j00 n00b"!

chem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacob Roman

I have the LightFusion icon that I made in here:

http://www.vbforums.com/attachment.p...chmentid=40573

---

I know. I am using that one right now, but I was kinda looking for one that isn't a perfect square. I would PERFER is penagate remade our logo then we could redo the icon and other stuff based on that. But I havn't come up with anything. Has anyone else?

Wow that was a long thread. That's what I get for not being online for so long.

Private Sub SimpleSub() {
str project_leader
project_leader = "JR"

MessageBox.Msg = "I couldn't get onlne for a while. I wonder if [$project_leader] would still let me help."
MessageBox.Show

If ProjectMembers.Status != ProjectFull {
ProjectMembers.Add "Datacide"
}
}

Is there anything I can do to help?