I'm amazed at the increased percieved hatred of the US ever since Bush took office.
His foriegn policies are very similar to Clinton's before him, but the Euro-attitude has changed negatively.
Is it just Bush's attitude, facial expressions or what?
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I'm amazed at the increased percieved hatred of the US ever since Bush took office.
His foriegn policies are very similar to Clinton's before him, but the Euro-attitude has changed negatively.
Is it just Bush's attitude, facial expressions or what?
We as a people elected the fool...
Bill
Which one: Clinton?Quote:
We as a people elected the fool...
Europe unfortunately is made up of mostly liberals. Then again, same holds true for Canada. There's nothing wrong with being a Democrat and opposing views, but if you have to be as Left-Wing as you can get, as all liberals are, and have a one track mind, bad mouthing Bush without knowing all the facts, and actually listening to the liberal media, then you need some serious help. Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.
The biggest misconception that people make, is how our government is run. Bush maybe the President, but he is not an elected king, and isn't in charge of everything that goes on in the country. Checks and Balances (read an American Government book if you wanna know more about it), is what prevents a President from having total control over the country. Another thing is that the government isn't allow to interfier with businesses. So you can't blame bush for high gas prices and what not, because he has nothing to do with it. He cannot be to blame for the deficit because 1) the deficit has been there since the 60's, and 2) the only people allowed to spend from it is Congress, not the President. So you can't bad mouth Bush unless you know the facts ;)
Savage ;)Quote:
Liberalism is in fact a mental disorder.
Mike Savage himself, yep :bigyello:Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
I think they may be relating the war in Iraq with Bush (obviously) and maybe now with the recent bombings
in London they may think differently. Do you thnk they will generally support the war more? If they dont want to get any more
waves of terrorism then perhaps Bush may start to pick up in popularity. ;)
But what I don't understand, is why they use the war in Iraq as a reason, but nobody seemed to care when we went into Kosovo during Clinton's terms. BTW we're still there.
Here are the facts everyone. We are not fighting just Iraqis terrorists in Iraq. We are fighting terrorists from many nations in Iraq. Just that Iraq ended up being a battle ground. And we got troops in Afghanastan, and other Middle Eastern countries as well, hunting down the FBI's most wanted terrorists. So far we captured nearly 80% of the main ones. :)
Osama Bin Laden is so much of a wuss, that he fled into Pakistan, which is where US troops are not allowed because it would affect relations between us, and might start a war if violated.
I say just bomb all along the border and we should get him, if bombed enough. :p
"Nuke em....Get them before they get you!" -Cheesy commercial in the movie Robocop
Enough bombs might get him and some other evil people too, but that slime is not worth the innocent lives that bombing would cost.Quote:
I say just bomb all along the border and we should get him, if bombed enough.
As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.
As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way.
They hate just Bush, but are jealous of the U.S. :afrog:Quote:
Do Europeans hate the US or just Bush?
I'll be in hiding in case any of you start looking for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Here we go again....there is NOTHING called everyone in Europe....It's like saying. Does everyone in the world like Fish and Cowboy boots. Grrrrrrrrrr....stops trying to make all the countries in Europe look the same. They are so freaken different....
Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.
After reading through all the posts, this one and Noteme's are the only two that make any sense. Good advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally Pipp
who are "these people"Quote:
Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.
people with informed opinions that differ from yours?
Yes, let's not waste our breath...
Let's hang with our own; people who agree with us.
Let's not even listen to what others have to say, it's not important because it's not our opinion.
This is why many Europeans (not including myself) hate both the US AND Bush. You are perceived as arrogant by not admitting that other countries helped with the war in Iraq (UK, Denmark, Spain, Italy....) and that is disrespectful to the soldiers from those countries that died in this war.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin. At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma. Two important aspects for any leader.
As for being jealous of the US? Hardly. Wouldn't particularly like to live in a country with such readily available guns and where school shootings by a student is becoming increasingly frequent.
And if I was that jealous of the US.....I'd be living there wouldnt I!?! :thumb:
I think he is referring to the people of North AmericaQuote:
Originally Posted by moeur
So true, however, more and more Europe is starting to look like a large country. Like any other large country, there is a lot of diversity.Quote:
there is NOTHING called everyone in Europe
What I was referring to in my original post was the perception that we get here in the US. Admittedly this perception is coming from a somewhat flawed media.
When I watch the news or read the news papers, I often see protests against the US, interviews with the populace that have anti-US opinions and polling data that seems to suggest that hatred for the US exists in a majority of citizens of most European countries, most notably France and Germany (I don't know about Switzerland).
I hope that the media here is wrong and that "Europeans" aren't turning against the US.
no, referring to a certain type of people who are unfortunately in abundance in the US, namely the pig-ignorant arrogant hyperpatriotic blowhard.
They come and go around the fora and it's best not to waste too many time on them.
My apologies, I was joking. Trying a little back-humor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
I'll practice and do better next time.
Yes, I see there is one in this forum.Quote:
... namely the pig-ignorant arrogant hyperpatriotic blowhard. They come and go around the fora and it's best not to waste too many time on them.
I think he's referring to you. How can you deny it when you say things like:Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
"As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.
As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way."
I did no such thing and neither does Bush. I don't know how many times he has thanked the countries who have help us with this important task. And I will be the first to buy a drink for any who served to show my gratitude when I meet one.Quote:
This is why many Europeans (not including myself) hate both the US AND Bush. You are perceived as arrogant by not admitting that other countries helped with the war in Iraq (UK, Denmark, Spain, Italy....) and that is disrespectful to the soldiers from those countries that died in this war.
Your cousin must be pretty smart to have earned a Masters degree from Harvard at 5! This point regarding bush is just silly rhetoric.Quote:
As for Bush, he is a fool and frankly seems as intelligent as my 5 year old cousin.
ya, you might say he had a lot of spunk:) As a leader he was pretty much a failure, however.Quote:
At least Clinton had a spark of Intelligence and a lot of Charisma.
I started this thread in an earnest attempt to solicit opinion, not to bait. I am assuming that everyone posting here is giving me there honest opinion and I will give mine.Quote:
I think he's referring to you. How can you deny it when you say things like:
"As the world's only superpower we have a responsability to restrain our awesome power in instances like this. We even sacrifice some of our own soldier's lives to minimize the deaths innocent civilians.
As the only power with the ability to take on the world's enforcement tasks (like cleaning up the Middle East), we shouldn't shy away from such a necessary job, nor should we do more harm than absolutely necessary to the innocents who get in our way."
I am truly interested in what part of my above statement you find "pig-ignorant, arrogant, hyperpatrioti, or blowhard".
You didnt start this to find out if europeans hate bush or like him. You asked us why we hate him.
Would disagree. It was only after Bush became President that anti-US feeling began to increase so much. He is not a good figure-head for the US. The only problem is that with a two party system you didn't have much choice as that other idiot was even worse!Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
You did no such thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
"Worlds only superpower?" The combined nations of the UN are far superior
"awesome power" - again the UN nations are more powerful
"only power with the ability" - Hmmm, seeing a recurring motif here
"innocents that get in our way" - !?!
The whole problem with Bush was that he didn't come up with any solid reason to invade Iraq. Now he has stirred up a real hornets nest in the Middle East as they see the US as self-proclaimed cleaners (which you yourself have said). They are simply asking, what gives you the right to decide if a country needs "cleaning up". The US and UK I think was right to stop Saddam but they went about it completely the wrong way and should have been more patient and more meticulous in their planning for possible insurgents
See Dave, there's no point in wasting time and energy on them. :)
I did admit that I may have misconceptions and there really is not a lot of US bashing over there.Quote:
You didnt start this to find out if europeans hate bush or like him. You asked us why we hate him
I would agree with Note though. Please don't assume that Europe is simply one country.
Each individual country has their own governmental system (communist, republican, monarchy, democratic etc), many with their own currencies and own history. Most will also be generally offended by being called European.
As for myself I would very much like to see the UK leave the EU as soon as humanly possible. It is becoming far too large and far too influential on the member countries. The EU should only ever have been an alliance of countries.
But enough of my rambling :D
Do Europeans hate the US? Many resent the US and what it stands for but hate? No.
Do we hate Bush? Oh hell yeah! But no more than most American residents do, or probably less as we don't have to put up with him too much
The US has a profoundly overstated influence on the world stage. It's foreign policies are designed for it's internal use, and for the benefit of Americans and no-one else.
It's difficult to anthropomorphise an abstract policy so this dislike is mapped to those who created the policy, and those that support it.
Thankyou Valleysboy for your honest response.
So you would say that people really hate Bush and if we elect another liberal president like Clinton the everyone will be happy again?Quote:
Would disagree. It was only after Bush became President that anti-US feeling began to increase so much. He is not a good figure-head for the US.
The UN... better yet, you could imagine certain alliances between countries that would be very powerful indeed. These alliances, however don't exist right now and I can't imagine the UN could create them.
This is perhaps an unfortunate use of words, but depicts reality. Consider Iraq, thousands of innocent civilians dead. Why? Simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. My point was that the US does what it can to minimize those deaths short of compromising the mission.Quote:
innocents that get in our way
Bush gave several solid reasons for going into Iraq. Most people focus only on the WMD arguments. The main reason we went in, however, was to begin the transformation of the Middle East to an area that will not so easily breed terrorists.Quote:
The whole problem with Bush was that he didn't come up with any solid reason to invade Iraq
Who gave us the right to be self-proclaimed cleaners - this is a question that is asked every day of the conflict and for many months before. The only answer is that we feel that our national security depends on ridding the world of these regimes that spawn terrorism.
I also personally think that any country has as much right to take the leadership of a country away from someone like Saddam who himself took it by force.
Would it suprise you to know that more Americans voted for Bush in the last election than for any other President in US history?Quote:
Do we hate Bush? Oh hell yeah! But no more than most American residents do, or probably less as we don't have to put up with him too much
So, What I've got is Bush hated comes from percieved Arrogance and Ingnorance.
It's funny, but I remember the same things were said about Reagan.
If what you say is true then thats over 700 million liberals in europe and canada alone. I doubt many, if any are members of the democrat party though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Roman
You then went on to say Liberals all have a one track mind, when the definition of a liberal is someone showing broad-mindedness and tolerant of change.
As you seem to be in the minority (Which you yourself suggested) then it is you who has the mental disorder.
And certainly not generalise it.Quote:
Originally Posted by yrwyddfa
You'd be laughing at us if we proposed to accept Mexico as the 51st state because you know how ridiculous it would be.
Yet you see no qualm in endorsing the accession of Turkey into the EU. And even then not because you truly believe it should belong in the EU but because Turkey is a strategic ally in the middle east.
However hard the Eurocrats are trying to convince you, there's no such thing as the common European. Even suggesting that you believe there is or might be is a testament of your profound lack of knowledge of Europe and indeed the world.
This may be true as the US influence grows smaller as India and China grow bigger.Quote:
The US has a profoundly overstated influence on the world stage.
For the benefit of Americans yes; but we truly believe that most things that benefit the US benefit the world. But, this tendency toward self benefit exists in all countries.Quote:
It's foreign policies are designed for it's internal use, and for the benefit of Americans and no-one else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Yes, im sure killing thousands of innocent IRAQ's will not result in any of thier friends/familys from joining terrorist groups.
It is therefore unfortunate that the way these policies are portrayed to the world do not reflect this.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
several solid reasons... then why did he send Colin Powell with his powerpoint presentation to the UN security council to convince all of us that Saddam was a threat to the region and the world?
I think the end justified the means. Geopolitical interests in the Middle East required no reason other than the one that would make the US look benevolent in the eyes of possible allies.
Do not kid yourself. If there was no suitable reason available, one would've been fabricated. In fact, I think that already happened. :)
Actually there is a major movement over here to not make Mexico the 51st state but to give back California.Quote:
You'd be laughing at us if we proposed to accept Mexico as the 51st state because you know how ridiculous it would be.
Not because they are a strategic ally, but because they are a Democratic country and should be brought into the society of democratic countries. If the EU doesn't want to do it then they won't. We can only suggest just like you can only suggest we accept Mexico as one of our 51.Quote:
Yet you see no qualm in endorsing the accession of Turkey into the EU. And even then not because you truly believe it should belong in the EU but because Turkey is a strategic ally in the middle east.
I was under the impression we live on a globe, and that we're all people. I didn't realise that, by default, there is prejudice of a people based on the government of where they live.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Well, I, for one want no part of it.
So, in your opinion, why did the US invade Iraq?Quote:
Do not kid yourself. If there was no suitable reason available, one would've been fabricated. In fact, I think that already happened.
You really don't see the irony, do you? Amazing...
No question some will, but in the end the conversion of the Middle East can put an end to the cycle.Quote:
Yes, im sure killing thousands of innocent IRAQ's will not result in any of thier friends/familys from joining terrorist groups.
I'm curious, what policy beside Iraq fits this?Quote:
It is therefore unfortunate that the way these policies are portrayed to the world do not reflect this.
It's not a prejudice against a people, but against certain forms of government, Fascism, Totalitarianism, dictatorships...Quote:
I didn't realise that, by default, there is prejudice of a people based on the government of where they live.
No I guess I missed it. But I was honestly asking for your opinion of why the US invaded Iraq. I've given mine.Quote:
You really don't see the irony, do you?
Therefore by implication the people living under such regimes.
If you recall, Libya was brought under this 'confederate club' without weapons, without war, without death. It was all done quietly behind the scenes and without any fuss.
You don't have to bomb the hell out of country to change the way it is.
Global warming. But that's being argued in another thread . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
hmm... I wonder if his fear of invasion had anything to do with it.Quote:
If you recall, Libya was brought under this 'confederate club' without weapons, without war, without death. It was all done quietly behind the scenes and without any fuss.
Anyway, It's been a great conversation with some obviously intelligent people, but it's 2:30am here so I'll be turning in.
Oh so you'll be converting the rest of the middle east after IRAQ. Where do you get this information from?Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
I don't think the promotion of fear and death is particularly noble, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
I should at some point indicate that some people are on my ignore list and as such I can't /won't see their individual post. Pity I can still see quotes though...
Ah well.
People join terrorist groups because of common ideals. Once peaceful Iraqi people, who have no family left thanks to the recent invasion, will now join those terrorists because of their common hatred for the invasion. What a mess.
I agreed that Saddam should have been removed from power, but disagreed with how it was done. It should have been done covertly, and from behind the scenes. Then he could be taken in front of the UN council and tried for crimes against humanity. Then, again from behind the scenes, the UN could ensure that a democratic government replaced Saddam. This way Iraq would publically be seen as sorting their own country out, and the violence level would have been far less than a full scale war
There were bomb threats today, and people were inconvenienced as they always are. Most of them arrived late to a social gathering. Some of them were late to work.
Too many people just deal with inconviences from day to day. If they lost a days (or an hours) pay, then it would really upset them. If their bosses absorbed the lost of wages (as many do) then the masses will only look the other way as further threats happen.
Somehow the shift has to occur.
People that don't get blown up have to see themselves as targets, that should be lucky if they lose a days pay, simply because that they are still alive.
We have to decide to stand together to fight those that are against us, and to do everything within our power to not let the bad guys win.
Get with it. Make yourself be heard! It's not too late until your're gone!
(my 2 cents, fwiw)
I am from Norway..;)...and Norway nor Switzerland is not even part of the European union. And last time I was in Greace I met a greak guy that didn't even know that Norway was a part of Europe because we are not a part of the EU. There is NO sutch thing as a united Europe. And can not be looked up on as ONE unit as american often thinks...Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
Quote:
Originally Posted by moeur
There is still nothing called Europeans in debates like this. We don't all have siesta either...
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Don't waste your breath on these people Noteme.
Won't do it anymore. Doesn't seem like anyone understand it anyway. Last post..:)
- ØØ -
We Americans are all overweight, gun carrying, illiterate, war mongering rednecks.
And We = all the overly vocal Americans.
I hate alot of my own people, especially the ones that ***** about high gas prices yet continue to drive their SUV's that get 10 miles to the gallon. :-\
Don't think I can say much that you haven't already Cander :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Cander
Yeah, it does seem hypocritical on SUV (or 4x4s for the rest) drivers' part to complain about high fuel prices
And you know what is even better? We still pay less than most other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysboy1978
Cry me a river.