ethical question - PLEASE contribute your thoughts

Hello everyone.
First, let me say thanks to everyone who has helped (or tried to help) with the many vb questions I've had over the past year and a half on this forum.

Well, I have a bit of an ethical dilemma. I was fired from my job this past week. The reason was that the company "simply couldn't afford an in-house programmer" any longer. In a team software project, I was the only actual coder. The other members of the team were graphics and basic concepts (idea people). Well, my company offered me a one-month salary severance pay (a bit shabby since the standard here in Beijing is three months). Still, that is their policy so I can't really dispute it. A problem arose because I reminded the company that my first four months of work were unpaid. At that time, the company was just starting and weren't properly set up for payroll. When they got set up, no mention was made of the money. So, I mentioned it to my "boss" and the response was "that's ancient history. we can't be bothered to address that now." Well this particular boss wasn't in the company when I started working there two years ago. But I still worked the 4 months so I should still get the salary.
Well, what did I do? While cleaning out my desk, I decided to delete all the source codes from my computer. Luckily, I was fired on a Monday, because lately I had been deleting all my source code every Friday and re-installing it every Monday. So, the company doesn't have any code to the project we've been working on for the past 5 months.
When they called me at home, they were obviously anxious to get the code back. I mentioned that they should seriously consider compensating my first 4 months on the job. They still sounded indignant and said that if I didn't return the code, I would not only not get that money, but also the severance pay and also the salary I am due for July (which I already worked). In my view, they were counting on me to "need" the money and go running to return the source code. But I already sensed their urgency and I don't really "need" the money. So I told them that it didn't matter either way to me.
I still have several friends at the company, two of whom have called to tell me that the company doesn't know what to do because they really want this code back.
Now, I'm thinking back to my employment contract. There was absolutely no mention of source code. I understand it that the work we produce for the company (the .exe and the setup disc) is property of the company exclusively. But I believe that the source code I wrote that makes the app work is my personal intellectual property. Am I wrong about that?
Also, I know one reason they want the actual source code back is to get my name off the project (a shame since I was the only programmer).

Okay, my post has been way too long. I appreciate your reading it. I really want to know this from those of you who are also employed programmers:

1. Is the code we write our own, or does it belong to the company along with the application itself?
2. If the code is mine, what is the reasonable/typical solution to a problem like this ? (no source code - no salary)
3. If the code isn't legally mine, what recourse would I have to insure that I could get my proper compensation?
4. Is there any way in the world to turn over the source code such that it couldn't be manipulated? (so that they would be unable to remove my name from the project)

I apologize that this isn't a coding question, but it is a fairly urgent matter since I know they will call me today. I'd just like to know how this kind of thing is settled elsewhere.
Thanks all.

Wengang

I dont work for anyone, but i would say, the code is yours...you wrote it...unless they had some sort of policy, they shouldnt be able to take your name off something you made...and if they didnt pay your for your first 4 months....then also threatened to not pay you for your last month, i would take legal actions.

Just curious...what is the company you worked for, what did you make for them, why would they fire you if you were the only programmer? Just because your work was finished no leave? or what?

If you were to only coder, then why not give them the code, but altered slightly so that it doesn't work correctly. Also, remove all comments that you put in the source. That'll teach them. Also, change meaningful var names to x's and y's.

But, seriously, you should get paid for the work you did, but I'm not really sure about policies concerning code. I know that where I work at, I signed a contract stating that any inventions I created while there were initially property of the company, but now that I think about it, I don't believe it mentioned anything about code.

(What kind of inventions could a file clerk make, anyway?)

:)

1. The code is most definitly yours if there's nothing in your contract. That's the law... you have them there

2. I think you should say no salary - no source code You could always lie and say "I had better job offers anyway. If you don't pay me you'll never see your source because I don't need that money that badly anymore" This will make them sweat a little bit.
3. The code is yours. If it wasn't though you could always say it accidently got deleted and there's nothing anyone can do. Just deny your deleting it and everything else. They can't prove you purposly deleted it
4. Not source code... you can always alter it. I say finish the project on your own and release it as freeware... maybe even open source! They get what they ask for!!! :D

I dont know about Beijeng but here in New Zealand there was a case recently in the courts along similar lines

Know the Court ruled that the code was indeed the Companys Intellectual property and not the programmers. This was due the court felt to the fact that while working at the companys premises and on the companys equipment and software. Getting paid by the company for the time spent creating the code. In effect made that code the companys Intellectual property not the programmers. The part that made this case even more interesting was that the person in dispute had done a lot of work on a personal bases at home with the project as well. But the ruling still went against him.

So my advice would be to investigate the contract laws and property rights laws in beijeng very closely. Perhaps you could even mention to them the fact that you are considering legal action against them for the unpaid time.

Just make sure you research every aspect before entering into any more communications with them

Good luck

I don’t seem to be in the majority here, but if you wrote the code on company time for a company project, then I believe it is the property of the company and not yours. By walking off with it, I think you may have painted yourself into a corner. At this point, about the only way that you may get your money is to hold the code hostage. But then again it may get you into some legal troubles.

Hi
In Australia the law is also that the code belongs to the company which is quite practical if you think about it. I would suggest that the issues of unpaid work and code ownership are completely separate and that they have every right to sue you for damages over the loss of the code (if chinese law is in any way similar).

In Aust we have a law of lien which determines things that can and cannot be held 'as hostage' for unpaid bills. I would doubt that your code falls under an allowable lien.

Your unpaid work problem depends on what arrangement was made at the time, your employment contract etc AND your ability to prove that your version is the right version of events.

The law may be an ass but i think that you are going to cause yourself more problems by creating belligerence.
Regards
Stuart

From my experience, any code you cut for a company at their offices using their equipment, is IP of company.

Not paying is illegal, you may sue for this.

Stealing source code is illegal, they may sue you for this.

You are both very naughty!

My advice: see a laywer!

The code im pretty sure definatly belonges to him...because im not positive, but you said you worked at home right? on your own computer and stuff? and not at officed?

Quote
"simply couldn't afford an in-house programmer"
End Quote

so if made it at home it should be yours....btw i like 3 of those ideas

1. FUX0R up the code really bad for them
2. Distribute it freeware...or to a company maybe?
3. HOLD THE MOFOING CODE HOSTAGE!!!!

Everything you wrote for them belongs to them. They own the source code, since you agreed to be employed by this company to write the software.

Too bad you've already deleted the source and created this situation, but hopefully you can repair it. If it were me, I would gladly give the source back, and learn from the experience.

You cannot hold their code hostage, and they must pay you for the work rendered. If there is nothing in your contract about severance, and if there is no law, then they owe you nothing.

I recommend that you take the 1 month severance and start a new job immediately. This happens very often, don't let it ruin friendships or prohibit you from getting new work. I use past projects as references constantly, 2 months lost severance is pennies compared to the professional reference that could get me new work.

Good luck. I think that you know the answer here.

Give the code back and sue for outstanding money (if you can) as I don't think you will get a good reference so you may as well get the money.

Welcome to VB world Ryebread :).

I work in US as a programmer for many years now and I can tell you that the law is that if you're an employee of the company and anything you write in the company belongs to the company not to the programmer who wrote it. You don't sell your program as a product, you sell your services. The company cannot just not pay you. Also, you cannot give them a not working copy of your code like someone here have suggested, the company would have a power by law to sue you.

This is a delicate matter and it should be taken by lawyers. Of course, I'm telling you this from the US standards that might be different elsewhere.

Good luck.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Serge
Also, you cannot give them a not working copy of your code like someone here have suggested, the company would have a power by law to sue you.

---

That was me :rolleyes:. I forgot to mention that in order for that plan to work, you would have to move to Canada, and hide out for a while :D.

Actually, I was just kidding about everthing above "But seriously"

being fired like that sucks!!!

i would be really pissed off.

anyway, i dont know how are the laws over there, but here in Panama the code belongs to the company cause you used the company's hardware and tools (vb 6.0) to develop it...

you should talk to the government agency that deals with employment over there... and ask for your money.

'There's a standoff a brewing here'



Seriously though.. you should tell them either give you your pay
or else you will take the source code to the companies major competitor; and if they say they will bring the law into the picture..just delete the code so no one will have it...

how dare they try to get away without paying you, and then tell you to give them the source..

BTW. Since you were "an in-house" programmer...the code cannot be even considered the companies..because you used your own computer..and also the fact that you were the only programmer on the whole team!!.


you have them by their rich corporate balls right now, and you can get your money.


good luck!

In America here the code would definately be the company's IP and they could take legal action to recover it. The code was built by you as an employee of the company thus making it the company's. You were paid for your time while coding (well except the 4 months) it thus it is the company's.Also the not getting paid for 4 months factor would be an issue with our labor laws but the first they would ask you is if you weren't paid for the first 4 months of work why did you wait two years and until you were fired to try and get it back. It would seem that in the 5th or 6th months you would have handled that, but that is just here in the US maybe things are different there. Also if you were the only programmer then what are they going to do with code and no programmer?

Where is Ryebread's Posts. he had alot of them.

Hi all. I just wanted to update a bit on my original post.

To start with, I was the only programmer at the company. In fact the company is an American company operating in Beijing, China. And I am American, not Chinese.
This company is not a software company, they just have a need for the occasional application (that's what I'm for) and, in recent months,for this project which may be used here - it is a software for teaching English to Chinese people - or may be sold on the market.
I'm sure that my former company is not looking to be out a programmer. The obvious answer is they saw how much money they would save by firing me and hiring one or two locals to work for a much lower salary.
Yes, I wrote most of the program at the office, but also a substantial part of it on my own time at home.
The VB I used was mine, not the company's. I installed it when I got there and deleted it when I left.
Why didn't I ask for my 4 months sooner? Well, in fact I brought it up a few times, but I always got the same kind of "we'll look into it" answer, that makes it even harder to bring up the next time. It's a bit humiliating to have to keep asking for money that should have been given to you, right?
In fact I am holding the code hostage for now.
What I will ask for in return is:
July's salary
nextmonth's severance pay
4 month's of initial salary
1 presigned and chopped (sealed) letter of refence (a very complimentary one from the guy who fired me)
1 employment release letter, signed and chopped (something you need to change jobs in China)

I won't ask for more than that and I don't see any reason to take less.
If I have to give this source code to them, I will make it look extremely unrecognizable (but not damaged)

My only other real concern is that my name will not appear on the
software itself when it is marketed. I think that would look much better as a part of my portfolio (since I was the only programmer)

The last thing I would want here is a legal concern, but thankfully lawsuits are incredibly inefficient processes in Beijing and I doubt my company could make any headway on it even before the Olympics get here in 2008

Anyway, thanks to all who posted on this.

Wengang

Quote:

---

1. Is the code we write our own, or does it belong to the company along with the application itself?
2. If the code is mine, what is the reasonable/typical solution to a problem like this ? (no source code - no salary)
3. If the code isn't legally mine, what recourse would I have to insure that I could get my proper compensation?
4. Is there any way in the world to turn over the source code such that it couldn't be manipulated? (so that they would be unable to remove my name from the project)

---

1. It usually belongs to the company. It does here in my USA company, at least.
2. It doesn't matter, if they didn't pay you, sue their sorry asses. (Ah, the American way :D)
3. See 2. :)
4. Encrypt it. But since source code is just text, there is no way to make your name sticky to it. If you don't want the code to change implement a CRC algorithm to check the source code for changes.

and yo paid for it, i think that changes the scenario...

was it a legal copy of vb 6.0????

i think that you should talk to them and demand your money before going to the court.

hope everything works out fine for you man!

Ruyeno22

Unfortunately it doesn't matter who owns the equipment. If you're a permanent employee of a company, work that you undertake on their behalf is their IP. It's not the same situation for contractors because they usually have something written into their contract about it. Also, unless it's specified in your contract, they aren't obliged to put your name on the finished product.

On the ethical front, I think you can justify holding the code hostage, but on the legal front you can't. :(

Good luck with it all, though.

I think most people are looking at his situation the wrong way. He was a programmer for the company while he made that code, so some say that the code belongs to the company. In the US and in most countries, that is absolutely true. You cant just walk away with the company's code. BUT in the US and in most other countries, a company can't just not pay you either. All those who said that he should give back the code are probably in the US or some other free country. So i ask them: would a company not get there pants (and finances) sued off them for not paying an employee? China isnt like that. Like he said, it would take the courts years to process the case. So i beleive what he is doing is his only option.

More power to you Wengang!! Show them all...;)