[RESOLVED] 2010 vs 2012?

I teach VB at a university to non-CS majors. It is basically an introduction to computer coding where it is not expected that these students will continue in the field of programming. My aim is to show them how to use some VB code in Office applications. They will also be setting up simple games such as TicTacToe and then some. (Other game and app suggestions welcome.)

The university will be upgrading from 2010 to 2012 next fall.

My question is whether or not, at the level for these students, there be any differences. From what I teach, it can all be taught using VB6 or so.

What visual differences will we see. (Menus, layouts...)

The big visual difference it the change from more extensive use of colors in 2010 to a more monotone look in 2012. I personally think it looks terrible, and it's harder to discern the differences between toolbar buttons.

This is worrying if you teach.

In VB too? Is not anything sacred?

What is it with all the color changes? Do they simply hate older people or is it just anyone who want to work efficiently?

All menu options look as if they are disabled.
Can anyone tell me ONE reason for any of these changes?

You hit a sore nerve there.....

It was a sore spot for us, too. My boss and I both wished we had upgraded from 2005 to 2010 instead of to 2012.

I don't even see why it takes your university 4 years to upgrade to 2012. The university should have 2013 version, and when the 2015 version comes out. They should have that. Imho I think they should have both the 2010 and 2013. Anyway, you can google to find the differences between the file versions.

From what I gathered from the initial post, they should have stayed with vb6 and saved themselves some $$$.

Somebody suggested that the reason they flattened the look had to do with the changes coming with Win8. Frankly, the appearance of VS2012 was bad enough that I didn't feel a big reason to move on, and I think it is kind of stupid that your Uni is going to 2012. The 2015 version is looking pretty awesome, to me, and they started reversing course on the visual changes as of 2013, which is a trend that will continue with 2015. So, once again VS will look nice.

Furthermore, the Professional Edition is provided as the free Community Edition with 2013, and continuing with 2015, when it is released. Why would the Uni go with 2012 when the students could all get the better 2013 Community Edition for free? That seems like a poor choice.

Additionally, I have never tried anything with VB6 or VBA in VS. I heard that it worked, but it seems awkward.

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Never worked in a university have you...? (-:

It takes a full year or more just to get it purchased. Then IT has to play with it trying to make themselves look important. The instructors have to be brought on-line (kicking and screaming) with all the changes. Oh my, the pictures in the syllabus and videos in their course web sites have to be upgraded. Shall we talk about the pressures from the book sellers to get rid of the used book sales?

I am not disagreeing with you but there is that "University Reality" than has to have its way with things trying to justify paychecks.

Meanwhile, What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2103 and the alleged 2013 versions? Is there a nice chart somewhere? Maybe I can stem the tide away from 2012 before it is too late.

Still, I have never seen any justification, not even one, for this "flattening" and new "Make-all-options-look-Disabled" Themes.

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Working for a defense contractor, I can relate to some of that.

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Originally Posted by Emeroogork

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Never worked in a university have you...? (-:

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Yes, I have, and the IT department rarely complained about our slide rules.

Actually, I'm not THAT old (though I DO have a slide rule), but that's about right. When I was working in a University, there was no IT department to speak of. We barely had computers, and those were Mac Classics. I was running a 286, but most people didn't have computers of their own. There was barely any networking, either, and the internet didn't exist for us (it may have been available to a select few in one building, though I'm not sure).

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Originally Posted by Emeroogork

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Meanwhile, What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2103 and the alleged 2013 versions? Is there a nice chart somewhere? Maybe I can stem the tide away from 2012 before it is too late.

Still, I have never seen any justification, not even one, for this "flattening" and new "Make-all-options-look-Disabled" Themes.

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The 2013 version isn't alleged. The 2015 version is eagerly awaited, by me, though I have no idea when it will be released. I don't believe there is a justification for the flattening. I believe that MS probably hired somebody with a ponytail and a goatee who was assigned to be "artistic", and who subsequently decided to put their stamp on the interface by altering ALL the icons, the appearance of the menus (ALL CAPS, rather than Proper Case), and mess with the page appearance. An MS rep who delivered a keynote at a conference I recently attended stated that they "had heard us", which is why 2015 is moving back towards the beautiful 2010, artistically.

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The 2013 version isn't alleged.

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Definitely not i am using it right now, and your right its much nicer than 2012.

Other than being visually more attractive and nuget being better integrated most of the changes are to do with ASP.Net here is a list

ADOBE products went that that way too I seem to recall (flat/mono etc). Must have been the in thing at the time.

OK, the consequences of not proof reading my messages. Of course "What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2103 and the alleged 2013 versions?" should have read "What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2013 and the alleged 2015 versions?" but I am sure that this was figured out. (:

Maybe the anemia with grey icons will go down as Clippy did. I wonder if the AARP or the ADA have touched on on this.

Although my courses could have stayed at VB6, I am happy to see Andriod access. Thanks for all the feedback I will ask around to see why they chose to stop at 2012.

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I wonder if the AARP or the ADA have touched on on this.

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WOW, your an instructor. Were you paying attention at your sensitivity training class? Being a AARP member and disabled I can assure you that flat grey screens would not be something we would want.

I most certainly attended the sensitivity classes and I taught them a few things too especially about the matters discussed here. Many people simply accepted them without knowing how it affects others. Others did not even notice them.

My point was more in the want to know what the organizations are doing. I actually filed a complaint with the ADA for the use of faded icons and menu items within their own web site.

Sometimes I feel that I am the only one speaking out.

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I believe that MS probably hired somebody with a ponytail...

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Hey! You watch yourself, Beardy! :D

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Although my courses could have stayed at VB6

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I'm not sure I'd have recommended that. At the level you're talking you hardly need to be making use of every Gucci feature that the latest version of VS offers but you should at least be using a language that's considered current. even if it's not the intended outcome there's presumably at least an outside chance that a few of these students may fall in love with programming and decide to make a career out of it. If that does happen then having .Net on their CV is likely to be much better for them that VB Classic.

There are some language feature differences between 2010 and 2012 but I doubt you're even going to notice them. As others have said, though, you are going to notice the look and feel differences in the ide so my suggestion would simply be to download the express version for yourself and have a play with it in advance. You don't want to spend the first lesson trying to find the comment button (which is harder to find than Bin Laden when you go looking for it the first time).

And yes, the look and feel of 2012 is truly terrible. God knows what they thought they were doing there. My only assumption is that they must have hired a bloke with an overly shaggy beard to design it.;)

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my suggestion would simply be to download the express version for yourself

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Express Editions are soooooooooooooooo last year man!

Seriously though Community Edition 2013 is free for Academic use and its basically Visual Studio Professional. I would definitely be using that ahead of 2010 or 2012 given the choice.

You just download it and go !

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Express Editions are soooooooooooooooo last year man!

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Woops, brain fart :)

This thread makes me realize why all the other developers laugh and call us names. Why they never let us play in their developer games. We ship ourselves over COSMETICS of the IDE. sheeet people, there are more important things to cry over. I don't know about the rest of you but I spend closer to 95% of my time looking at the frakin' code than I do wondering what pony-tailed, grizzly-beared hippie designed the IDE. As long as F5, F10, F11, F2, F1 (although I don't use that too much), Alt+T, Ctrl+Alt+E, Ctrl+Alt+P, F7 and Shift+F2 work that's the important stuff.

Jimminy cripes... no wonder Dill looks at us with distain. By the way, no one is forcing anyone to use VS2012... don't like it, don't use it. I happen to like it. the tools I get out of it far outweigh and crummy looks, but I happen to like the dark theme, it's much easier for me to see & read than the white background.

-tg

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Why they never let us play in their developer games

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I see what you did there:rolleyes:

For me the issues with 2012 and 13 weren't the flat look and general washed out look (I didn't like them but I was hardly bothered by them. It was that they changed the icons (in particular the comment icon) and the way that some of the features operated (in particular the way test projects were run). That just made it tricky to find those features at first. I figure that, if you're going to stand up in front of a class of baying students, you probably don't want to be faffing around trying to find the right button to press.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I figure that, if you're going to stand up in front of a class of baying students, you probably don't want to be faffing around trying to find the right button to press.

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"baying"? now, look they maybe noobs at development that's no reason to call them dogs.
As for faffing around, that's unpreparedness on the part of the instructor.

-tg

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frakin' code

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Rogue Battlestar Galactica reference detected !!!

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This thread makes me realize why all the other developers laugh and call us names.

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For anyone who has used an alternative IDE's we do have it pretty sweet in VS world.

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Originally Posted by Emeroogork

OK, the consequences of not proof reading my messages. Of course "What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2103 and the alleged 2013 versions?" should have read "What are the differences between 2010, 2012, 2013 and the alleged 2015 versions?" but I am sure that this was figured out. (:

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And made fun of you gleefully, at that!!

I really stuck with 2010 because I was working with XNA, which didn't work with 2012, at first. The means to have XNA work with 2012 and 2013 are readily available, these days, so I no longer have an excuse, but I really like some of the advances to the IDE with 2015....which is almost here, so I'm trying to hold out. What I really need is a new computer at work, as I lack sufficient HD space to install 2015 without first removing one or more of the others. Won't be getting an upgrade for a few more months, though.

"Jimminy cripes... no wonder Dill looks at us with distain. By the way, no one is forcing anyone to use VS2012... don't like it, don't use it."

As we are stuck with having to drive using internal combustion engines and the unfair unfair gas tax, we are stuck with Microsoft and the anemic color schemes among a lot of other annoyances.

In this case, no I do not have the choice. The software is decided by some committee out of my reach and so many web sites employ a lot of the same idiocracies. (I still ask for at least one benefit for the grey icons that look as if they are disabled.)

Apparently you have either excellent eye sight, an incredibly good monitor, or get to work in a darkened room. Most of us do not have those benefits. Sometimes, I cannot even find the light grey slider in a scroll bar.

Personally, I would prefer to use my grey matter for developing code rather than expending it on deficiencies in microsoft.

Still, is there at least a single reason for this change in the appearance?

Perhaps some links may help ;)

http://visualstudiomagazine.com/arti...udio-2013.aspx

2013 features compared
http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/pr...oducts-vs.aspx

Whats new in 2012
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...v=vs.110).aspx

Whats new in 2010
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/libr...v=vs.100).aspx

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Originally Posted by techgnome

"baying"? now, look they maybe noobs at development that's no reason to call them dogs.

-tg

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I agree, the dogs don't like the association.

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Originally Posted by Emeroogork

I agree, the dogs don't like the association.

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We're not a little jaded, are we? Although I can understand. I was a TA in grad school 20+ years ago and wondered sometimes how some of these folks made it out of high school, although in some cases I could see how it was clearly not their faults but rather the system's.

But if I keep going along these lines this thread will digress... :)