Can we improve VBForums Star Rating system?

The starred threads on VB.Net (and presumably other forums) seem largely to be the result of people starring their own threads -- inevitably with 5 stars. What is more, the threads so starred are often the very worst -- someone failing to ask a clear question, multi-posting and bumping, continually wheedling for ready-made code, never showing own code, never rating people who help them, and an avatar with a décolleté (dear reader, if you recognize yourself in this ... good:D). The present star rating system has the merit of simplicity, but apart from that it is misleading and distracting, making the forums less pleasant to use and less valuable to people searching the forums for information.

What could we do about this? Barring people from starring their own threads would be an obvious start. But the OPs concerned shun no means of grabbing attention, so it wouldn't surprise me if they create multiple identities for this purpose. An alternative could based on a kind of like/dislike system:

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The point values and the texts could no doubt be tinkered with and improved.

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Or we could disable the option and help increase page load times it any;)

I believe it currently just displays whatever score was given to it last. So I just gave this one 5 stars to check and it's now showing a a 5 star thread - I didn't check how many stars (if any) it had before though, so I'm not sure what I actually proved.

Anyway, it is pretty useless as it stands and I personally just ignore it. It probably ought to be either improved or switched off.

I don't even notice it.

But I already gave it 5 stars myself :D. Normally if you give a 5-star marked thread a Terrible rating, it falls to 3 stars - which in most cases is still a gross overestimate. I'm not sure if 5-starring it twice makes any difference. Could someone please try rating this thread as Terrible? I won't be offended!

It's odd by the way that we can't change a star rating we have previous given. A thread could start off bad but turn wonderful due to later posts. Or vice versa. In a system with star-value votes as at present, changing your vote ought to be allowed, in my view.

I think an effective thread rating system is worth having. The similar-looking but effective rating system on the Code Project is quite useful, for example. Visitors to this forum are likely to expect something similar, and it doesn't add anything to this forum's reputation if they find rubbish in the starred threads. Probably only regular posters realize that it is a sham and should be ignored.

Still, I agree that nothing would be better than the present system. Oops, that's ambiguous. I mean, it would be better to have nothing at all than to continue the present system.

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Originally Posted by boops boops

Normally if you give a 5-star marked thread a Terrible rating, it falls to 3 stars - which in most cases is still a gross overestimate. I'm not sure if 5-starring it twice makes any difference.

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It's supposed to be an average... so a 5-star rating and a 1-star = 6 divided by 2 (for 2 "votes") = 3... so marking a thread as "Terrible" after it's been marked with 5 stars, it would make sense to drop it to 3. It may still be over estimated, but then if someone else rates it as 1, it should drop to a 2-star (5+1+1)/3 = 2.5 (OK, so it should be a 2.5 stars) ... if it's bad enough and enough people down vote it, eventually that 5-star rating becomes mathematically removed. Problem is, I bet most of use don't even use the star rating system. Sure, the initial post itself may be junk, but the thread as a whole usually adds some value.

Personally I've never paid much attention to it (OK, so I've never paid any attention to it since I didn't realize it was possible.) I'm more likely to rate individual posts than I am to rate threads as a whole.

my two centavos.

-tg

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The similar-looking but effective rating system on the Code Project is quite useful

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Code Project is different, though, as it's more about submitting code than asking questions. It's more akin to our Code Bank than the rest of the forum. A thread rating mechanism in Code Bank would definitely be worth having. For the rest of the forums I'm not sure how much value it brings.

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I'm more likely to rate individual posts than I am to rate threads as a whole.

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Me too but rating a post is more about sending a message to the poster. The thread rating is more about sending a message to the rest of the world.

FWIW, at the time I found this thread it had a 5-star rating. I rated it as terrible and the overall rating fell to 4 stars.

(Don't take it personally! ;))

I just rated this thread as terrible too.

Totally personal.... :D ;)

That brings it down to 3 starts. Don't worry, boops. We'll make sure the rating reflects the true value of this thread! :p

The irony is that if the entire membership of VBForums voted this thread as Terrible, it would still have one star; which is one more than most if not all the other threads in Forum Feedback.

This is just another reminder that not much thought has gone into the present thread starring system.

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Originally Posted by boops boops

This is just another reminder that not much thought has gone into the present thread starring system.

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I don't think it is indicative of the thought that has gone into the thread rating system, but rather it is more indicative of the use that the system has received. The feature seems pretty straightforward to me, but most people simply chose not to use it. This is a third party forum software product, so I'm guessing most of us local folks haven't put much thought into the details since they are driven by the software product.

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Originally Posted by brad jones

I don't think it is indicative of the thought that has gone into the thread rating system, but rather it is more indicative of the use that the system has received. The feature seems pretty straightforward to me, but most people simply chose not to use it. This is a third party forum software product, so I'm guessing most of us local folks haven't put much thought into the details since they are driven by the software product.[

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I find it hard to believe that the thread rating system is so inflexible that it can't be made meaningful.

1. It's absurd to star a thread as Bad or Terrible. Can't we change the texts to reflect various degrees of positive appreciation, for example as I did in post #1? I'm not saying my suggestions in that post are ideal, but it should be possible to discuss them.

2. Isn't it possible to prevent people from rating threads they have started themselves?

3. You could post adviice how the thread rating system is to be used, for example in a sticky thread in each forum.

4. If necessary, thread rating could be limited to the various Code Banks. But I think that would be a pity because some discussion threads are worth starring.

5. Couldn't the moderators be asked to keep an eye out for misuse of the thread rating system? Can they intervene to correct the misuse?

Would any of these things require changes to the software?

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Originally Posted by Steve R Jones

Or we could disable the option and help increase page load times it any;)

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http://www.vbforums.com/images/ieimages/2013/11/1.gif

Boops - for us that don't even notice the star system - give us an idea what You for example use it for.

Do a lot of stars motivate you to read a thread you might otherwise not read?

Or is it the other way around... Do you like to read threads that have bad or no stars to see why they don't?

I'm with Steve.... ;) :)

The most common five star rating used today is Amazon and most people think of them in the same way they are applied on Amazon, which means 1 is bad and 5 is good. Sure, we could change the meaning, but a majority of people are going to see the rating as 1 is bad and 5 is good no matter what we say. Yes, we could put posts and notices everywhere saying the meaning is different, but experience has shown that people won't read any of that and instead we will end up with a mixed up rating if we try to change the meaning of the scale.

Ratings on things are really only good when lots of people are rating something. If lots of people rate, then the averages help offset. For example, if 10 people rate a thread, then one 5 star rating by the OP is going to have little impact. nine 1s and 1 five is still one star.

Getting moderators to review ratings is not viable. First, it would require them to read and scrutinize every rated thread. That would be time drain. Second, ratings are completely, completely, completely subjective. What you say is great, I might think is horrid. The question becomes - who's right? If a person is a novice programmer, then they are going to rate 'basic' threads high, where as an expert developer might rate them low. If you get enough people, the average will work out. It comes back to averages.

If not enough people are rating things, then the option is to turn the stars off if people don't want them.

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Originally Posted by Steve R Jones

Boops - for us that don't even notice the star system - give us an idea what You for example use it for.

Do a lot of stars motivate you to read a thread you might otherwise not read?

Or is it the other way around... Do you like to read threads that have bad or no stars to see why they don't?

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The only reason regular users ignore the star rating system is that it is so badly implemented. As FD pointed out in post #7, the star ratings are supposed to say something about the threads to the outside world. But I think they would also be useful to regular forum users if they were credible.

My own experience is mostly in VB.Net. A lot of the threads posted in the VB.Net forum are just repetitions of familiar beginners' problems (and especially aspiring game cheats). So I would certainly appreciate a meaningful star rating system to draw my attention to questions or discussions that other forum users think are worth reading. On the other hand, if a thread title were to catch my attention I would look at it regardless of its present rating, and maybe rate the thread appropriately myself.

The VB.Net Code Bank is a little better but there is also a lot of dross in there. I don't think we should discourage beginning programmers from posting their latest discoveries, but they shouldn't be allowed to rate their own threads. A credible star rating system would be helpful to people looking for useful or interesting code, whether VBForums regulars or non-members.

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Originally Posted by brad jones

I'm with Steve.... ;) :)

The most common five star rating used today is Amazon and most people think of them in the same way they are applied on Amazon, which means 1 is bad and 5 is good. Sure, we could change the meaning, but a majority of people are going to see the rating as 1 is bad and 5 is good no matter what we say. Yes, we could put posts and notices everywhere saying the meaning is different, but experience has shown that people won't read any of that and instead we will end up with a mixed up rating if we try to change the meaning of the scale.

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The Amazon star rating system applies only to reviews that people have taken the trouble to submit, not to the products reviewed. Every review has to have a star rating, so their are no unstarred reviews for comparison. Besides, the Amazon system is by no means the only one out there. If starring is optional, 1 star cannot mean a bad evaluation because what does an unstarred contribution imply? Worse than terrible?

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Ratings on things are really only good when lots of people are rating something. If lots of people rate, then the averages help offset. For example, if 10 people rate a thread, then one 5 star rating by the OP is going to have little impact. nine 1s and 1 five is still one star.

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At present a large proportion of star ratings come from people rating their own threads in an effort to draw attention, regardless of the quality. If we had a credible system, I think serious users of the forum would gradually start using it sensibly.

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Getting moderators to review ratings is not viable. First, it would require them to read and scrutinize every rated thread. That would be time drain. Second, ratings are completely, completely, completely subjective. What you say is great, I might think is horrid. The question becomes - who's right? If a person is a novice programmer, then they are going to rate 'basic' threads high, where as an expert developer might rate them low. If you get enough people, the average will work out. It comes back to averages.

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I was thinking that moderators could intervene when there is an obvious abuse; for example when someone starts a new membership under a different name in order to boost their own "star" rating. If we had a credible star rating system users would report abusive star ratings in the same way as abusive postings in general. Besides, even if the moderators were proactive they would only have to look at the starred threads.

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If not enough people are rating things, then the option is to turn the stars off if people don't want them.

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Few people are rating threads at present because the system as it now stands is broken. The other option is to improve it. Of course you could just get rid of it, but that applies to the whole of VBForums. If it's too much effort, close it down.

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Personally the star system would mean crap. The tone and context of threads change. Example, there's a thread where the OP asked about the ordering of results from a sql select statement seeming to be random. A discussion then ensued about indexing and other workings of the DBMSs and that the best way to to ensure the order was to include an ORDER BY clause. So within the first 6 posts or so, it was a good discussion. That's the kind I'd give a 4 to. Then we find out the OP is using Excel as the "database" and it pretty much invalidates the discussion thus far. IT then turned into a discussion about what is or isn't a database. Meanwhile the OP is no where to be found. Or what about threads where the OP in their misguided mind has their thought process meander around to where it takes 20-30 posts before things get sorted out. Which begs the question, when should the thread be starred and based on what sort of very highly subjective criteria?

-tg

As I previously stated, I'm more likely to rate individual posts (although I only do the good ones, I don't don't vote the bad ones, no matter how much I think they may deserve it)... and I know the rep system gets a lot of use here. Just as a thought, is there a way to note which posts have been repped? I don't thibnk it needs to show by who, just something around the post that says "This post has been rated good X time(s)" ... I'm just throwing things at the wall, see what sticks. Don't know if it's possible or not, or if it's worth the effort.

-tg

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Originally Posted by Steve R Jones

Or we could disable the option and help increase page load times it any;)

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That would probably crash my pc! :eek:

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Personally the star system would mean crap. The tone and context of threads change. Example, there's a thread where the OP asked about the ordering of results from a sql select statement seeming to be random. A discussion then ensued about indexing and other workings of the DBMSs and that the best way to to ensure the order was to include an ORDER BY clause. So within the first 6 posts or so, it was a good discussion. That's the kind I'd give a 4 to. Then we find out the OP is using Excel as the "database" and it pretty much invalidates the discussion thus far. IT then turned into a discussion about what is or isn't a database. Meanwhile the OP is no where to be found. Or what about threads where the OP in their misguided mind has their thought process meander around to where it takes 20-30 posts before things get sorted out. Which begs the question, when should the thread be starred and based on what sort of very highly subjective criteria?
-tg

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1. The primary use of the star system is in the Code Banks, where the quality of the thread is mainly set by the first post.

2. As I suggested earlier, if it's technically possible we should be able to change our votes. But even if it's not possible, subsequent votes should level things out as is supposed to happen at present.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

As I previously stated, I'm more likely to rate individual posts (although I only do the good ones, I don't don't vote the bad ones, no matter how much I think they may deserve it)... and I know the rep system gets a lot of use here. Just as a thought, is there a way to note which posts have been repped? I don't thibnk it needs to show by who, just something around the post that says "This post has been rated good X time(s)" ... I'm just throwing things at the wall, see what sticks. Don't know if it's possible or not, or if it's worth the effort.

-tg

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A drawback of the star system could be that newcomers sometimes confuse it with the rep system. That's why I suggested adding a mention of the rep system to the star system window, as illustrated (perhaps not too clearly) in Post #1.

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Originally Posted by techgnome

Just as a thought, is there a way to note which posts have been repped? I don't thibnk it needs to show by who, just something around the post that says "This post has been rated good X time(s)"

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Another forum I visit uses, in addition to the rep system, a "Thanks" button for each post. When a post is thanked, the message appears below it: "The following users say thank you to techgnome for this useful post:" followed by a list of users and the date each user said thanks.

The thanks don't show up on the forum list like the star rating does, but it is helpful to see a record of thank-yous. If I know that techgnome is a smart, reputable user, I might go to his profile stats to see which other posts he has thanked in the past. I find a lot of good stuff this way.

Boops, I understand your frustration with noise in the forums and with the star rating system, but I think it can really only be fixed by a culture shift in which the body of users as a whole makes an effort to use it. (After all, you can't get the average user's opinion if the average user doesn't take the time to share it by rating a thread.) From my experience with other forums, this is unlikely to happen.