What is the top predator in the ocean besides man?

Looking at the speed charts the fastest creatures in the sea are typically stated as either the swordfish or sailfish:
http://www.elasmo-research.org/educa...'_bass.htm
http://www.speedofanimals.com/animals/tiger_shark?g=t

If these numbers are true then the billfish cannot be caught by any other predator based on speed alone. However, it might be that the speed of the Mako shark, usually regarded as the fastest shark, is actually understated, for example see the video here which at least puts the Mako faster than the Tuna (unlike the aforementioned speed charts) although it does not mention if it is faster than the billfish:

YouTube video titled: "Shark Week- Mako Shark's Speed"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcO1UHVNkEI

If this video is factual, it means the Mako might be faster than the Orca and that a school of Mako sharks (weighing up to 450kgs) should be able to easily devour Orcas (4-6 tons) in piranha like fashion, also being able to escape by diving to depths where the Orcas cannot reach them. This contrasts with Great White sharks which are a bit slower and sometimes fall prey to Orcas, and I don't have a source showing Makos being eaten by Orcas.

So what do you think, what is the top predator in the ocean: is it a billfish such as the sailfish, the Mako shark, Orcas, the Catchalot (sperm whale), a Seal such as Sea Lions, one of the smaller toothed whales (dolphins) like flipper, or something else?

Disease. That will rob the fastest of animals of all of their speed, which will slow them down sufficiently that a simple worm can consume them. Nobody is immune forever.

Like the virus that killed the aliens in War of the Worlds, or the latest outbreak of Ebola in Uganda last month?

Pretty much.

Figuring out which is the top predator is kind of a natural offshoot of a society that favors competition. We want to know what is the toughest. Can your shark beat up my Orca? Unfortunately, the question can't be answered definitively. All animals can be beaten by just the right bacteria or virus. Furthermore, some competitions just don't happen. The blue-ringed octopus, if it were to work in conjunction with other octopi (it is certainly smart enough) packs such a potent venom that it could kill pretty nearly anything. However, the blue-ringed octopus does NOT work in conjunction with other octopi, and is mostly a shy, retiring, animal. Therefore, that potent toxin is used for feeding and a last line of defense, and we can never know who would win in a cage match. The same could be said for Orcas. They can travel in packs, they are well equipt to kill things, but lots of potential prey never come into contact with them, and therefore they can't be matched up.

Woman.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Can your shark beat up my Orca?

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An Orca would pwn a shark owing to its greater intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

Pretty much.

Figuring out which is the top predator is kind of a natural offshoot of a society that favors competition. We want to know what is the toughest. Can your shark beat up my Orca? Unfortunately, the question can't be answered definitively. All animals can be beaten by just the right bacteria or virus. Furthermore, some competitions just don't happen. The blue-ringed octopus, if it were to work in conjunction with other octopi (it is certainly smart enough) packs such a potent venom that it could kill pretty nearly anything. However, the blue-ringed octopus does NOT work in conjunction with other octopi, and is mostly a shy, retiring, animal. Therefore, that potent toxin is used for feeding and a last line of defense, and we can never know who would win in a cage match. The same could be said for Orcas. They can travel in packs, they are well equipt to kill things, but lots of potential prey never come into contact with them, and therefore they can't be matched up.

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By using the phrase "a society that favors competition" you seem to be referring to society based on survival of the fittest which I have to agree with you would not be a very friendly or compassionate one, although don't forget there is also the use of superior force to defend oneself and protect others.

Not sure about the octopus or squid being the top predator as they all seem to die shortly after mating.

If you like poison, as the blue ringed produces a venom rich in tetrodotoxin (also in the pufferfish) which is 10,000 more toxic than cyanide then you could take a look the sea snakes which do hunt in groups e.g. "Huge aggregations of sea snakes have been reported. For example, in 1932 millions of Astrotia stokesii, a relative of Pelamis, were seen from a steamer in the Strait of Malacca, off the coast of Malaysia, and formed a line of snakes 3 m (9.8 ft) wide and 100 km (62 mi) long. The cause of this phenomenon is unknown". source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_snake

All of the sea snakes seem to be poisonous as I can't find any aquatic constrictors like the green anaconda or the reticulated python in the ocean, although I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Niya

An Orca would pwn a shark owing to its greater intelligence.

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Can you give me an example?

There may not BE an example. What would be the justification for an Orca killing a shark? Food is the likely reason, but Orcas may not like the taste or fat content of sharks. Predators often compete indirectly be reducing the food supply of their competitor rather than direct aggressive competition.

The toxicity of a puffer fish doesn't really count, as it is unable to use that toxicity aggressively, whereas both the sea snakes and the octopus could. Similarly, the box jellyfish is just too passive to count as a top predator, despite being highly toxic, and slightly more able to project that toxicity than the puffer. Barracuda are another one with a toxin similar to that found in the puffer, but a barracuda is clearly a predator, though it doesn't use the toxin for predation.

I'm not sure that dying after mating should be a reason to discount an animal from being a top predator. Everything dies, so exactly when that happens seems a bit irrelevant.

Nice, I got a double post by some odd means.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Can you give me an example?

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As Shaggy said , there may not be an example. This is an extrapolation on my part because I've heard people claim that there have been times that dolphins have beaten sharks and Orcas are the larger cousins of dolphins.

Shaggy and Niya, what I mean is can you give me an example of how Orcas can use their intelligence to escape from a school of Mako sharks, taking into account the sharks are faster and can wait in the depths and then ambush any mammals when they forced to the surface to breath including Orcas, and they also have electroreceptors which allow them to sense the electrical field emitted by any living creatures making it almost impossible for the Orcas to hide from the sharks? By contrast a Mako can so easily dive to escape a rabid Orca.

I don't see how Orcas can use their intelligence to stop the equation: Mako sharks + Orcas = Orca chowder.



Shaggy, I always thought barracuda were a popular game and table fish, are you sure they contain any poisonous compounds?

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I mean is can you give me an example of how Orcas can use their intelligence to escape from a school of Mako sharks

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Why would the Orca be attending a school for Mako sharks anyway? Is he an exchange student? Mind you, if he's more intelligent than the rest of the students he'll probably do quite well so may not want to escape.

My vote for top predator would go to the Blue Whale. That's assuming eating plankton counts as predation as a decent proportion of it is animal. They also eat small fish (which they actually herd to make catching them easier) in massive quantities. In terms of volume of animal matter consumed (which seems the best definition of Top Predator to me) the Blue Whale has got to be up there.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

My vote for top predator would go to the Blue Whale.

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That's the largest animal that has ever lived on the planet, with the heavyweight females weighing in at 180 metric tons, substantially more than the heaviest currently known dinosaur Amphicoelias fragillimus which is estimated to have weighed a mere 122 tons (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_size)

It has an enormous skeleton including a giant head and mouth, and some of the largest organs found anywhere in the animal kingdom including the heart and lungs.
As far as its diet is concerned I think the baleen of the Blue whale is only designed to eat krill, its the fin whale that can eat fish and squid.
Surprisingly for such a large animal it can travel up to 50 kilometres per hour (31 mph) over short bursts.

No doubt a fine contender for top predator in terms of the volume of animal matter consumed and overall headcount, and no doubt it has the best most muscular pose and a giangantic phallus, however, the testicles of the right whale are ten times bigger than the blue whale and while it has the largest head it doesn't have the largest brain. Another obvious weakness is that it is restricted to prey no larger than 10mm in size.
Also while it is fast, I am not sure that it is fast enough to avoid being turned into blue whale sushi by a hungry school of Wahoo or tuna.

This thread sounds a bit like Mortal Kombat: Ocean Edition.

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Originally Posted by Witis

Shaggy, I always thought barracuda were a popular game and table fish, are you sure they contain any poisonous compounds?

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All true. I even know the name of the toxin, I just can't spell it. The toxin doesn't appear to be created by the barracuda, but is bio-concentrated into the tissues from the diet of the barracuda. This means that small fish are quite edible, and are considered very tasty. However, at some point, the amount of toxin in the flesh has gotten to the lethal level, so eating barracuda is something of a game of fish roullette. I was told that there are a few deaths each year from eating barracuda that are too large. This mostly occurs in the Bahamas, and other islands, where barracuda is something of a delicacy.


Here's a link that talks about it in more detail, but is also a bit vague, and a bit chilling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera

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Originally Posted by Witis

Shaggy and Niya, what I mean is can you give me an example of how Orcas can use their intelligence to escape from a school of Mako sharks........I don't see how Orcas can use their intelligence to stop the equation: Mako sharks + Orcas = Orca chowder.

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Here you go ;)

Here's a quote from the 3rd paragraph of that article:-

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Using a combination of superior brain power and brute force, the highly-intelligent orcas are able to catch and eat what many think of as the ocean's top predators.

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Here is another article about orcas. Its quite long but pay particular attention to the 'Hunting Behavior' section. It really highlights just how intelligent these creatures are.

Here is another very interesting article on dolphin intelligence.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

This thread sounds a bit like Mortal Kombat: Ocean Edition.



All true. I even know the name of the toxin, I just can't spell it. The toxin doesn't appear to be created by the barracuda, but is bio-concentrated into the tissues from the diet of the barracuda. This means that small fish are quite edible, and are considered very tasty. However, at some point, the amount of toxin in the flesh has gotten to the lethal level, so eating barracuda is something of a game of fish roullette. I was told that there are a few deaths each year from eating barracuda that are too large. This mostly occurs in the Bahamas, and other islands, where barracuda is something of a delicacy.


Here's a link that talks about it in more detail, but is also a bit vague, and a bit chilling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciguatera

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All true, it seems it is something akin to mercury poisoning except the toxin is created by a harmful neurotoxic bloom of Dinoflagellates (plankton).

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Originally Posted by Niya

Here you go ;)

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Well done, the sharks do seem to have a weakness: 'They always eventually turn the shark upside down," added Dr Visser. "At that point the shark cannot fight back, it has been a successful hunt and they can feed.' When sharks are quickly flipped upside down, they enter a paralysed state known as 'tonic immobility' - making for an easy meal. This reminds me of the end scene in Deep Blue Sea where LL Cool J makes an explosive from the gun powder in some flares and then attaches it to a harpoon and shoots the last genetically engineered Mako shark, and then sets off the explosion by connecting the harpoon cable to a car battery blowing up the shark.

So in order to kill a single shark a whole pod of Orcas has to surround and ram it from all directions until it can be turned upside down.

There does not seem to be any problem with the Mako shark's eyes which are usually described as well developed except that they don't see in colour (which is a relatively recent discovery: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3493978.htm), although an Orca's skin would make it high contrast and therefore highly visible to a shark, meaning that any sharks that are killed must simply not feel threatened by swimming next to an entire pod of Orcas.

My theory is that swimming too close to a pod of Orcas is a mistake only made by young sharks who can otherwise simply dive to escape if they are outnumbered. If correct this would mean that Mako sharks are more likely to eat Orcas than the other way around. Also due to its speed disadvantage the Orca is also potentially prey to other species of fast swimming piranha like fish including Albacore, Bonito, Blue and Yellow fin Tuna and Wahoo putting it even further down the food chain.

Also the end scene in Deep Blue Sea was busted by the mythbusters: http://mythbustersresults.com/phone-book-friction

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Originally Posted by Niya

Here is another very interesting article on dolphin intelligence.

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The problem is that all sea mammals that are forced to live in the ocean, and cannot escape on land or ice, are likely easy prey to the fastest sharks and fish of the ocean no matter how smart they are.

I rather doubt that, frankly. Just because a school of some kind of fish COULD attack a certain target, that doesn't mean that they do. The first thread on Orcas killing mako sharks suggests that it is often a very solitary hunt, and also very opportunistic. Do you have evidence of a group of sharks taking on an orca?

Another point that is interesting in those articles is that the Orca doesn't appear to be using its mouth for anything other than eating. It attacks with either momentum or fin effects, though that latter might be just a fluke.

Well the point is cetaceans can use their intelligence to invent strategies to negate any advantages their prey may have even if said prey is a predator itself. The sharks may be faster and may possess all manner of super senses but its no match for plain old common sense. Look at humans, the most dominant predator on the planet. We are slow(unlike quadrupeds like the big cats), have no super hearing(dogs), no super smell(dogs), no ability to detect electrical fields(sharks), no flight(birds), no super sight(eagles, hawks), no claws(falcons, cats), no horns(goats, bulls, buffalos), no super immunity(komodo dragons), no ability to see heat(snakes), no super strength(lions, tigers, bears etc.). Every other vertebrate on the planet has one or more of these advantages and yet we dominate. Intelligence is the ultimate adaptation for survival.

EDIT:

I think the only purely physiological advantage we have over most other vertebrates is our ability to distinguish colour. Most vertebrates have severe constraints on how many colours they can see and even that doesn't really give you any super advantage. Being able to detect movement and recognize shapes are far more important than colours.

Plenty of vertebrates DO see color, and some see more color than we do. I think you were right the first time.

Isn't it this one? :confused:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qifec2KgHo.../predators.jpg

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

I rather doubt that, frankly. Just because a school of some kind of fish COULD attack a certain target, that doesn't mean that they do. The first thread on Orcas killing mako sharks suggests that it is often a very solitary hunt, and also very opportunistic. Do you have evidence of a group of sharks taking on an orca?

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The Wiki page on Great White sharks admits that in rare cases Great Whites are preyed on by Orcas. Even so, I am still not convinced that Orcas are higher up the food chain and designed to regularly eat fully grown Mako and Great Whites, instead it seems much more likely that they are only able to take on young or injured sharks thus accounting for these rare cases.

In addition some recent research has revealed that Orcas that make sharks a part of their diet, in this case they were recorded regularly preying on Pacific sleeper sharks, wear their teeth all the way down to the gums, see the Scientific American article here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...le-pays-a-pric. This indicates that Orcas are primarily designed to eat mammals and are simply not made to be a shark predator, further weakening the case for the Orcas as the top ocean predator. By contrast a shark's teeth keep on growing to replace any damaged teeth throughout its life meaning it has the tools for the job.

Also it is usually rare to see the Cheetah and the Lion trying to prey on each other as there is no competition over prey. The Lions are not fast enough to catch the fastest herbivores such as Pronghorn antelope or Springbok which are the primary prey species for the Cheetahs. Likewise the Orcas can't catch the fastest fish leaving them all to the Makos (probably better for their teeth too).

Although the Wiki page lists tuna (regular toothed) and swordfish (billfish) as prey for the Mako(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortfin_mako_shark) it may be that the fastest billfish such as the Black Marlin (which seems like a misnomer for a silvery white faced and bodied fish) are even faster, for example see this BBC video here which claims that Black Marlin can swim up to 80 mph and therefore might be able to escape from Makos:

YouTube video titled: "Black marlin - the fastest fish on the planet - Ultimate Killers - BBC wildlife"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD7t057XIi8

If true it would mean that the Black Marlin would not be regular prey for the Mako potentially making it the top predator.

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Originally Posted by Niya

Well the point is cetaceans can use their intelligence to invent strategies to negate any advantages their prey may have even if said prey is a predator itself. The sharks may be faster and may possess all manner of super senses but its no match for plain old common sense. Look at humans, the most dominant predator on the planet. We are slow(unlike quadrupeds like the big cats), have no super hearing(dogs), no super smell(dogs), no ability to detect electrical fields(sharks), no flight(birds), no super sight(eagles, hawks), no claws(falcons, cats), no horns(goats, bulls, buffalos), no super immunity(komodo dragons), no ability to see heat(snakes), no super strength(lions, tigers, bears etc.). Every other vertebrate on the planet has one or more of these advantages and yet we dominate. Intelligence is the ultimate adaptation for survival.

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Good point Niya, speed and weapons do not necessarily define the top predator, sometimes intelligence particularly if it is combined with the ability to use tools, the hand of man in particular means that he can make more use of any intellectual advantage, can determine the top predator.

On this point the largest brain (definitely not the largest head) in the animal Kingdom belongs to the Cachalot (Sperm Whale) and the second largest brain belongs to the Orca. However, it is clearly not always about about having the largest brain as in the case of modern man, which is not only little compared to aforementioned creatures, it also has 10 percent brain volume disadvantage relative to Neanderthal Man (source: http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v1i10a.htm), thus it is also about brain development.

Taking this into account I think the most intelligent sea creature might just be the Sea Otter as it has little hand like paws that allow it to use tools such as rocks to break open shells, turn over rocks and even to catch fish rather than with its teeth. As you say about humans it doesn't have super strength or speed, however, it might just be the most intelligent and handsome sea creature and the closest match to humans that can be found in the oceans. Weighing in at only up to 48kgs and up to 1.5 metres (5 ft) tall, with webbed hind feet for swimming, it nonetheless has been recorded eating giant octopuses (up to 70kgs in weight) and having a diet rich in fish. Predation of the Sea Otter is not said to be common, and one of the reasons given is that the otter, with their pungent scent glands, are distasteful. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_otter)

Also as the Sea Otter (formerly sometimes called the Sea Beaver) is the most comfortable of all the sea creatures on land it can readily escape to land or ice in order to evade becoming fish food unlike dolphins or whales.

Other potential contenders for the most intelligent sea creature include seals and penguins who can jump out of the water to escape from having to sleep with the fishes.

So, what's the point of all this? It appears that you have concluded that there isn't a single pyramid with a single creature occupying the top spot, which would be correct, but why bother even considering it?

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I think the baleen of the Blue whale is only designed to eat krill,

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I just did a quick google to check and that's most often cited. However, about a month ago I was watching a David Attenborough program that showed them herding small fish. What they did was fascinating. They all dove down deep and then a few circled underneath a school of fish while blowing bubbles and giving sonar "shouts". The shouts dissorientated the fish while the bubbles acted as a net, forcing the fish into a smaller and smaller bait-ball. Then the other blue whales swam rapidly upwards with their mouths open and scoffed the lot. They subsequently switched roles and repeated the process.

I wish I could find a source to cite for it becauuse it was seriously interesting

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and no doubt it has the best most muscular pose and a giangantic phallus, however, the testicles of the right whale are ten times bigger than the blue whale

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I'm not sure that's really relevant to qualifying who the top predator is but it's nice to know old Bluey's got it where it counts.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

So, what's the point of all this? It appears that you have concluded that there isn't a single pyramid with a single creature occupying the top spot, which would be correct, but why bother even considering it?

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Don't forget the sea birds: sea eagles, osprey (sea hawk), colonies of coastal falcons, in fact any sea bird with a beak strong enough to pierce sea mammal skin can also potentially get an easy mouthful of flesh every time they get to the surface to breath. Same goes for sea reptiles. Moreover although some can dive to great depths to hunt small fish I don't think they present much of a threat to sharks.

Sea birds might put sea mammals even further down the food chain.

Now that I have the main contenders, at least I hope I have the main contenders, I can now try and create some sort of hierarchy out of them and try to determine the top predator.

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Originally Posted by Shaggy Hiker

So, what's the point of all this? It appears that you have concluded that there isn't a single pyramid with a single creature occupying the top spot, which would be correct, but why bother even considering it?

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Originally Posted by Witis

Don't forget the sea birds: sea eagles, osprey (sea hawk), colonies of coastal falcons, in fact any sea bird with a beak strong enough to pierce sea mammal skin can also potentially get an easy mouthful of flesh every time they get to the surface to breath. Same goes for sea reptiles. Moreover although some can dive to great depths to hunt small fish I don't think they present much of a threat to sharks.

Sea birds might put sea mammals even further down the food chain.

Now that I have the main contenders, at least I hope I have the main contenders, I can now try and create some sort of hierarchy out of them and try to determine the top predator.

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There is no absolute top predator when you exclude man. With the ultimate super predator homo-sapien excluded for any weighing, the top predator title is always relative. A top predator in one environment may not even be equipped to compete in another environment. Looking for a super all powerful top predator in all the animal kingdom is as futile as trying to get pregnant without a placenta.

well besides the whales the global warming is the top predator :)

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I'm not sure that's really relevant to qualifying who the top predator is but it's nice to know old Bluey's got it where it counts.

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He does although you should see the size of his old lady, they don't call her "Big Mama" for nothing.

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Originally Posted by Niya

There is no absolute top predator when you exclude man. With the ultimate super predator homo-sapien excluded for any weighing, the top predator title is always relative. A top predator in one environment may not even be equipped to compete in another environment. Looking for a super all powerful top predator in all the animal kingdom is as futile as trying to get pregnant without a placenta.

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Although as you say it is clear that Man is the top predator on planet earth even though many other animals can and do prey on humans. In the ocean I think the Great White shark is the predator credited with the having the most human scalps which arguably is another point in the favour of sharks as the top predator in the ocean. If the top predator on the planet can be determined, I don't see why it is impossible to determine the top predator in the sea.

I presume that the reference to getting pregnant is because most of the top ocean predators including Orcas are matriarchal rather than patriarchal species, and not that you are female.

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Originally Posted by ahmedkhairy

well besides the whales the global warming is the top predator :)

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Which whale, one of the larger Baleen whales, the whale killer, or one of the smaller whales eg dolphins or porpoises?

Goats.

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Originally Posted by Bonker Gudd

Goats.

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Was that a vote for the Billfish, Moby Dick, the Goatfish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatfish)?, or the mythological sea goat (half man half goat) more commonly known as Capricorn one of the constellations of the zodiac?

I think you need to define what you mean by top.

At the moment you're able to (and repeatedly have) trivially dispute any answer your given. But you're disputing them not on the basis that the given answer is wrong but rather on the basis that it doesn't qualify against a set of criteria that you are changing to suit your current response. that makes it impossible to answer your question in any meaningful way.

I suspect your definition for "top" is basically who would win in a fight, the answer to which is almost always whoever is in their own element.

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Originally Posted by FunkyDexter

I think you need to define what you mean by top.

At the moment you're able to (and repeatedly have) trivially dispute any answer your given. But you're disputing them not on the basis that the given answer is wrong but rather on the basis that it doesn't qualify against a set of criteria that you are changing to suit your current response. that makes it impossible to answer your question in any meaningful way.

I suspect your definition for "top" is basically who would win in a fight, the answer to which is almost always whoever is in their own element.

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I concur, and was about to say this.

the ocean is a large place with different environments. Marine creatures have the ability to get away from one another, and the 'top predators' in one region have no contact with predators in another. It's like saying 'who would win: a red 1984 Ferrari Testarossa or a blue 1997 Ford F250?'

Also, I refer you to the George Bush Quote in my sig. Can't all the fish just get along? Peace, Love and Plankton, Baby!