Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
I've been monitoring Kinect since it was called Project Natal and I finally got my hands on one. I didn't have an xbox so I got the Xbox-kinect combo on what I perceive to be a very reasonable price.
Now, I was driven mostly by curiosity here. Sure, the kinect-enabled games are fun if you play with a group of friends. But I got kinect because I can think of a ton of commercial/retail applications that would benefit from it.
After playing for a few days, I think that kinect has great potential. You need to be a bit careful with the lighting, you need to have space (that minimum of 2 meters/6 feet of empty space is really required for games) and the sensor cannot be near a speaker or speech recognition is messed up. But all in all, I was thoroughly impressed.
My next obvious move was to see how I could hook up the kinect sensor to my PC and drive it from there. Since I got an xbox-kinect combo I also have a difficulty of not being able to directly connect it to a USB port but Microsoft has a connector adapter that I can get, so this shouldn't be a problem. But after some searching around I discovered, to my great surprise, that Microsoft does not have an SDK or even a PC-based driver for kinect. I also found out that there is now an active community that has already build the first open-source kinect driver (for details see this and this).
I really do not understand Microsoft's reasoning here. Kinect looks like a great sensor which can be used for applications other than games - this is evident because a lot of people on the OpenKinect project are investing their time and energy to come up with a decent driver. If I were in the shoes of Microsoft's product manager, I would definitely try to push as many sensors as possible and the only way to do that is to have software that uses it. To that end, I would made certain that a free Windows driver and a free SDK were available. Tying the sensor to a games platform makes no sense.
Any thoughts? Am I missing something big, like Microsoft losing money in every kinect sale?
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
When the xBox and xBox360 came out, there wasn't an SDK out for that either. At least not a public one. Odds are, there is one but it's closed at the moment. If you think about it for a second, it makes sense. Let the game manufacturers, which have $$$ at their disposal work out the kinks and problems. Then, once more game makers get their hands on it and continue to push it and flesh it out, at some point, it will, be packaged up and distributed. That's how XNA was pushed out. Part of it is also a wait and see mentality. No sense in making the SDK public and getting people hooked onto it only to find out it's a colossal failure.
-tg
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
You're saying that Microsoft only allows top-notch, well-tested software to be released. While I generally have a high opinion of Microsoft final releases, I won't agree with you based on the amount of betas Microsoft has published in the past and is still actively publishing. If there is an SDK (and, as you say, I'm sure there is), they could just label it a beta and turn it loose. If they think they are entitled to get some $$ for their pains, I'd understand. Release it only to MSDN subscribers for an additional fee or something.
And even if that is as you say, it only applies to the SDK. Why is there no Microsoft Windows driver for kinect? It doesn't make any sense.
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
Microsoft haven't really made betas of "professional use" products (such as developer tools) public for a long time - what they make usually public is CTP's, which come after the betas have been used for a while by a select group of users, and all the issues with it worked out. The reason for that is that even late within the beta stage there can be significant change, which many end users would complain heavily about (eg: "I spent months of my spare time on this, now I've got to start all over again!").
Releasing it as a beta would almost certainly not get them extra money, because even if there is a small profit margin in the Kinect devices the cost of actually releasing a beta (including managing user feedback etc) would be likely to far outstrip the gains.
Regarding pricing, it is entirely possible that at the moment at least the Kinect is sold at less than the cost to Microsoft (as is rumoured to happen with games consoles themselves when first released), because they almost certainly get money back from any XBox games that make use of it.
As for the Windows driver, why would there automatically be one? The Kinect is designed to be used with an entirely different system, so a driver for Windows would need to be specifically created, which isn't a five minute job - and clearly wouldn't be the top priority when it is designed as an XBox accessory.
While you see a use for Kinect with a PC, it is a far harder market to push this kind of device in to, because of the natural locations of the PC (eg: home-office) and console (eg: living room). Having people get used to the idea of the device first would help increase the potential, but I don't see it being more than a tiny percentage in comparison to the XBox users.
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
Microsoft haven't really made betas of "professional use" products (such as developer tools) public for a long time
I respectfully disagree. And how about the Windows 7 beta before that?
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
Releasing it as a beta would almost certainly not get them extra money, because even if there is a small profit margin in the Kinect devices the cost of actually releasing a beta (including managing user feedback etc) would be likely to far outstrip the gains.
Why? We're talking huge potential here.
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
Regarding pricing, it is entirely possible that at the moment at least the Kinect is sold at less than the cost to Microsoft.
Maybe. But according to this they're getting more money than the raw materials cost. I understand that they also have a lot of other costs to cover except materials but isn't this a compelling argument to do your best to sell more units? If there's more software for it, it's going to be in demand for more than xbox games.
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
As for the Windows driver, why would there automatically be one? The Kinect is designed to be used with an entirely different system, so a driver for Windows would need to be specifically created, which isn't a five minute job - and clearly wouldn't be the top priority when it is designed as an XBox accessory.
From the little I've read about the open source driver competition, the driver was release a week after the debut of kinect and the real work took the guy something like a few hours to complete. This definitely is routine for Microsoft and as far as the why is concerned...
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
While you see a use for Kinect with a PC, it is a far harder market to push this kind of device in to, because of the natural locations of the PC (eg: home-office) and console (eg: living room). Having people get used to the idea of the device first would help increase the potential, but I don't see it being more than a tiny percentage in comparison to the XBox users.
I said I can think of a lot of commercial/retail applications for kinect coupled with a PC. I don't see it usable on the desktop as it is now but there sure are other things you can use it on - see this and this - both references from MSDN blogs. And try this random idea on for size - there already are interactive whiteboards and related applications. Just imagine how enhanced their use would be if they're coupled with a device that can detect movement and gestures, can recognize individual faces and can understand basic voice commands.
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
ntg
I didn't say nothing of that nature gets released as a beta, and explicitly implied it as a general rule rather than something that is always true.
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Why? We're talking huge potential here.
A beta does not have huge potential for making money, it is almost certainly a loss maker - particularly when it is a mass-market one rather than targeted towards experts.
The potential of the final thing is a different and unrelated issue.
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Maybe. But according to
this they're getting more money than the raw materials cost. I understand that they also have a lot of other costs to cover except materials but isn't this a compelling argument to do your best to sell more units? If there's more software for it, it's going to be in demand for more than xbox games.
Based on that the current profits will be terrible once you take all the various things into account (such as construction, delivery, retailer markup, returns, ...). I'd be surprised if they make more than $5.
Even when the overall costs drop and the per-unit profit rises (as generally happens over time), the profit will almost certainly be pathetic in comparison to software products, and even other hardware devices such as keyboards - and as such will probably not be a worthwhile market to actively chase.
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From the little I've read about the open source driver competition, the driver was release a week after the debut of kinect and the real work took the guy something like a few hours to complete. This definitely is routine for Microsoft and as far as the why is concerned...
That is impressive, but a stable and complete driver will take much longer than that - particularly when it needs to be supported etc.
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I said I can think of a lot of commercial/retail applications for kinect coupled with a PC. ...
I agree that it certainly has potential (some of the ideas in those links are very good), but in the short/medium term it is something that is almost certainly going to be a tiny niche in the PC market (probably in the long term too), and therefore not likely to be a noticeably profitable area for them.
It would be good to get it out there, but I don't see a reason for them to rush it out rather than taking it in a slower and more cost effective manner, which arguably ends up with a better product (as you don't have the chaff to support 'legacy' code from the beta).
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
That is impressive, but a stable and complete driver will take much longer than that - particularly when it needs to be supported etc.
Why will it take much longer than that? It's a USB driver. They can always target only what they want to target (like Win7 and Win2003/Win2008) and be done with it. And it's working with xbox today. Do you really think that it needs so much more work? This is not just a technical problem. If it were, they'd be an announcement detailing the launch date of Kinect - if that was done, I'd be more patient and not gone down the OpenKinect road which also provides a Mac and a Linux driver.
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
Based on that the current profits will be terrible once you take all the various things into account (such as construction, delivery, retailer markup, returns, ...). I'd be surprised if they make more than $5.
Even when the overall costs drop and the per-unit profit rises (as generally happens over time), the profit will almost certainly be pathetic in comparison to software products, and even other hardware devices such as keyboards - and as such will probably not be a worthwhile market to actively chase.
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
I agree that it certainly has potential (some of the ideas in those links are very good), but in the short/medium term it is something that is almost certainly going to be a tiny niche in the PC market (probably in the long term too), and therefore not likely to be a noticeably profitable area for them.
Let's say that I agree that they're making a pathetic profit from the sale of a unit. The only other possible source of income is software. So just make the hardware easy to use in Windows so you can get people to write software for it and, god forbid, you may end up pushing more Windows/SQL Server/whatever licenses.
One of the following is true: either you underestimate the potential of kinect or I grossly overestimate the potential of kinect. Right now, I obviously can't be certain which is true. But that OpenKinect thing...those people were itching to get the sensor working on the PC. Currently the demand for it is certainly a tiny niche in the PC market but I think that it will not stay that way. Why not get in ahead of the curve and be the acknowledged leader/innovator?
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
ntg
Why will it take much longer than that? It's a USB driver. They ...
It is not a USB driver, it is a driver for a device that happens to be connected via a USB port.
The USB part will almost certainly be a pre-made include file that they use for other devices, so adding it should only take a matter of minutes.
As to all the various signals the Kinect is capable of sending and what they mean (plus what can be sent the other way, perhaps configuration settings? firmware updates?), I have no idea - but I doubt that it can all be written fully in just a few hours.
On top of that is all of the meetings etc and project creation, which all adds up too - and that is all before you even start thinking about testing/documentation/support/etc.
I obviously don't know enough details of the Kinect to make an accurate guess, but I would expect a driver and basic SDK for it to take hundreds of man hours overall.
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And it's working with xbox today.
That is irrelevant, the XBox is not the same as a PC.
The XBox is the raison d'etre for it (hence why that work has already been done), the PC is just something with some similarities that could make use of it too.
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This is not just a technical problem. If it were, they'd be an announcement detailing the launch date of Kinect
I have no idea why you came to that conclusion, it doesn't make any sense to me.
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So just make the hardware easy to use in Windows so you can get people to write software for it and, god forbid, you may end up pushing more Windows/SQL Server/whatever licenses.
Indeed (think "Express Edition"), which is why there is a decent chance they will end up releasing PC drivers etc for it at some point... but based on the very limited range of suggestions I've seen, I doubt they would be in a massive rush to make them public.
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One of the following is true: either you underestimate the potential of kinect or I grossly overestimate the potential of kinect. Right now, I obviously can't be certain which is true.
Nobody can. :)
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Currently the demand for it is certainly a tiny niche in the PC market but I think that it will not stay that way.
I'm doubtful due to it being a total paradigm shift for interacting with a well known device.
I certainly don't see it being useful in offices (except rare special cases), which is where a large proportion of PC users are based - and they are the ones who are most willing to buy new software (especially the expensive stuff).
As it wont be usable in most offices, the office workers are less likely to be willing to have it for home use, because they would have a regular switch of interaction methods.
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Why not get in ahead of the curve and be the acknowledged leader/innovator?
If you've got an idea that makes use of it (and the time to spare) then that is a great idea.
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
That is irrelevant, the XBox is not the same as a PC.
No it's not. But the driver layout is pretty much already determined in terms of capabilities it must offer to callers. It's only a question of porting it to the PC. I don't want to downplay the work needed here, it might very well be in the order of hundreds of man-hours as you say. What I'm saying is that Microsoft is one of those companies for which hundreds of man-hours is noise level. This is not uncharted territory anymore, as I'm sure it was during the original driver implementation. This is why I'm saying that coming up with a PC driver is not a question of technical skills but rather a political decision for Microsoft.
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Originally Posted by
si_the_geek
I'm doubtful due to it being a total paradigm shift for interacting with a well known device.
I certainly don't see it being useful in offices (except rare special cases), which is where a large proportion of PC users are based - and they are the ones who are most willing to buy new software (especially the expensive stuff).
A paradigm shift is exactly the reason why basic assumptions of computer usage will be re-assessed. You keep mentioning existing office and home users. Forget about those. Excluding games, I think that there will be almost zero demand for kinect from home users (at least initially) or the average office user. Generally I don't see any great value of using kinect on the mainstream PC of the average user. But a paradigm shift creates entirely new areas of applications that are simply not possible right now and can also change existing ones very radically. Think of existing applications like presentation software, call-conferencing software, computer-based training, computer-assisted repair. Think of new ones like retail loyalty, advertising, kiosk & ATM interaction, virtual whiteboards, robotics.
:) It may very well be that I'm just letting my imagination fly. But that's how I see it right now, after using kinect.
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
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Originally Posted by
ntg
... This is why I'm saying that coming up with a PC driver is not a question of technical skills but rather a political decision for Microsoft.
I wouldn't word it the same way, but I basically agree.
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.. But a paradigm shift creates entirely new areas of applications that are simply not possible right now and can also change existing ones very radically. Think of existing applications like presentation software, call-conferencing software, computer-based training, computer-assisted repair. Think of new ones like retail loyalty, advertising, kiosk & ATM interaction, virtual whiteboards, robotics.
:) It may very well be that I'm just letting my imagination fly. But that's how I see it right now, after using kinect.
There certainly are valid possibilities... but whether they take off or not, only time will tell. :)
Re: Why no Microsoft driver for Kinect?
Don't know whether it's authoritive or not, but this link http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/d...hnologies.html implies that some of the Kinect technology may be included into Windows 8
