[RESOLVED] The path to becoming a professional?
Hi all,
Moving into my third month of studying programming and enjoying it as thoroughly as I have, I have begun to think that I may want to do this for a living. This is certainly a longer term goal as I have much, much more to learn before anyone would consider paying me for this. At the moment, I'm thinking about aiming for a year from now, but am not sure if that is enough time.
Anyway, excluding the fact that I'm going to need to study and practice a whole lot since that is a given, I have a couple (actually a million, but I'll make this post brief ;)) of questions that I hope the professionals have some opinions on.
- The importance of a college degree in a computer related field. How important, in general, is this?
- On a side note to this, if I don't have this degree, and no previous professional programming experience, how do I prove to an employer that I can do it?
- My age. By the time I learn enough to think I can give this a shot, I'll be the big 3-0. :bigyello: Do you think that matters? I'm going to be have to looking for an entry level programming job and I imagine that the employer will be looking for somebody straight out of college that the probably don't have to pay as much. What are the chances they'll want some old guy with no previous experience? I can't imagine that it is ever to late to start though?
So, I know those are pretty general questions, but they're the first two that popped into my head. But get ready for a lot more.
Any other suggestions not related to the questions above are, of course, certainly welcome! Thanks for any replies.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
I started out with out a degree. I was working some where when the department I was working in wanted some software written, the IT department didn't have the time and I said I could do it. That was how I got into this. Since then the lack of a degree has not kept me from finding work, tahat said I did go back and get an AS in programming from a local school. I think that you will need to build up a good size portfolio to get going. I know that I'm looking to start a small side business doing custom programming for small bussiness in the area (I'm finding it hard to figure out how to start up though). Maybe try that route to begin with.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd[*
My age. By the time I learn enough to think I can give this a shot, I'll be the big 3-0. :bigyello: Do you think that matters? I'm going to be have to looking for an entry level programming job and I imagine that the employer will be looking for somebody straight out of college that the probably don't have to pay as much. What are the chances they'll want some old guy with no previous experience? I can't imagine that it is ever to late to start though?[/LIST]
This actually might help. Regardless of your age, entry level positions pay entry level salaries. Your age isn't going to get you one cent more. However, given that they would pay you the same as they would pay a 22 year old recent college grad, who do you think they would rather have?
I'd say the 30 year old. The professional experience level is the same, but the maturity level is multipled by 8 years.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd
The importance of a college degree in a computer related field. How important, in general, is this?
It depends on the employer. Some employers (like a big search engine company) not only want a degree but a degree in a specific major from a particular university. Others just want a technical or math degree. Others want just a degree. Some don't care if you have one or not.
The short answer is that a lack of a degree will exclude you from some, but by no means all, employers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd
On a side note to this, if I don't have this degree, and no previous professional programming experience, how do I prove to an employer that I can do it?
Do you have a website where you have examples of your work? If not, start up a free blog at WordPress or Blogger or somewhere like that. Add your examples to it and point your potential employers there, just keep it active and professional looking.
Another approach would be to get involved in local user groups or other social organizations (church, clubs, etc.) and network your way into a job.
Another, which I don't recommend, is to flat out lie, uh, make that 'exaggerate', on your resume enough to get past the initial screening but you had better deliver the goods in the interview. Sometimes you do have to stretch things a bit though to get through a clueless HR screen. For example, back in 2003 you would see want ads stating that they would only consider people with 5 years of C# experience. :confused: :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd
My age. By the time I learn enough to think I can give this a shot, I'll be the big 3-0. :bigyello: Do you think that matters? I'm going to be have to looking for an entry level programming job and I imagine that the employer will be looking for somebody straight out of college that the probably don't have to pay as much. What are the chances they'll want some old guy with no previous experience? I can't imagine that it is ever to late to start though?
Once again, it depends on the employer. You probably won't nail that job with the hot Web 2.0 company or huge search engine firm but you can find other places that only care about your skills, not your age.
It is an unfortunate thing in the software industry and even in corporate IT departments that age discrimination is a fact of life. Of course, they won't come right out and say it because they could be sued, but they'll find cute little HR approved code phrases for it like, "We want someone who's more energetic" or "We don't think your a good fit for our dynamic work environment"
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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The importance of a college degree in a computer related field. How important, in general, is this?
As important as your GPA and SAT/ACT test scores were in getting you into a college. After you're there, you're fine and years of experience is the only unit of measurement from there on out.
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On a side note to this, if I don't have this degree, and no previous professional programming experience, how do I prove to an employer that I can do it?
Suggest a project. Tell them you have an idea (although, you might want to come up with an idea before you tell them you have one). Execute it and show it to them. Even if it's simple, it shows aptitude.
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My age. By the time I learn enough to think I can give this a shot, I'll be the big 3-0. Do you think that matters? I'm going to be have to looking for an entry level programming job and I imagine that the employer will be looking for somebody straight out of college that the probably don't have to pay as much. What are the chances they'll want some old guy with no previous experience? I can't imagine that it is ever to late to start though?
Assuming this isn't your first office/corporation position, you have a leg up in the sense that you understand the business of your product. Although you probably won't be as proficient as the college grads; your skill set isn't head-down coding. There's alot that goes into making a successful product.
My advice is not to move to the programming world, but extend yourself from where you are into it. Take business requirements, layout designs. After awhile, move into data modelling and packaging installation. From there, you might be able to move into a project management position. You'll be seeing some code (if you so choose, project leads typically filter it down into the summarys you want), but for the most part - you'll be fully into the IT department.
Not everyone in IT came from being a coding grunt. Infact - in the upper echelons, it's very rare to see those people. If your heart is set on being a member of the "think tank" - shift yourself into programming. But be warned, you might not make as much initially because of your lack of expertise in the area.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Thanks for all of the great answers. Lots of good things to think about. I guess I really didn't think about my age as a possible strong point. I have been in the business world for about 5 years (The 5 before that I taught golf professionally :rolleyes:) so that is certainly something that I can push.
Good stuff to consider as well sevenhalo. Where do I want to be in the IT world? That's something that I have to think about.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Quote:
1. The importance of a college degree in a computer related field. How important, in general, is this?
As pointed out by others, this will vary. Our shop is a prime example of degrees don't mean much. We have people with no college degrees, some with an Associates, some with Masters. When we hire, we look at past experience, ability to learn and cope, and the candidate overall. I keep having to remind ourselves that you can teach skills, you can't teach personality. We took a chance on someone that had only minor programming exposure at a tech school.... and now he's one of the leading developers as we go into .NET.
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1. On a side note to this, if I don't have this degree, and no previous professional programming experience, how do I prove to an employer that I can do it?
Depends on the interviewing process. They way we do it here, is that if you impress our committee (it's easier than going through 5 one-on-one interviews) well enough on the first round, we'll bring you back and give a case study, tell you what we are looking for and let you have at it. It's amazing how quickly that weeds out the ones that can't. But then again, we're far from the typical shop.
We also make it a habit to ask some oddball questions that give us some insight into how the candidate thinks.
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2. My age. By the time I learn enough to think I can give this a shot, I'll be the big 3-0. Do you think that matters? I'm going to be have to looking for an entry level programming job and I imagine that the employer will be looking for somebody straight out of college that the probably don't have to pay as much. What are the chances they'll want some old guy with no previous experience? I can't imagine that it is ever to late to start though?
But you have an advantage - the business experience that the kid out of college wont' have. You'll know what works and what doesn't and have an idea why.
-tg
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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Originally Posted by techgnome
We also make it a habit to ask some oddball questions that give us some insight into how the candidate thinks.
Like, "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladden swallow?" :D
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Originally Posted by techgnome
But you have an advantage - the business experience that the kid out of college wont' have. You'll know what works and what doesn't and have an idea why.
The disadvantage here is that someone with real world business experience can't be told that if they work 172 hours a week they'll get a big bonus because they'll know that you're full of it while a recent college grad will go for it. That's why the big software industry players like to get 'em fresh when they're ignorant and naive and create an environment, aka 'corporate campus', where they'll think they're still in college. Once they're burned out then they're ready for the regular corporate IT world or else they mutate into 'project managers'.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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Originally Posted by bgmacaw
Like, "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladden swallow?" :D
Almost.... 1) If you were given the task to count all of the gas stations in the world.... how would you go about doing it? 2) Why are manholes and their covers round?
We also have others that are not quite so "out of left field". Sometimes I don't even feel it necessary to ask the manhole question. I have a document of some nearly 40 questions that I ask our candidates. I don't use them all everytime, I'll pick and choose based on their experience and how I feel things are going in the interview.
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Originally Posted by bgmacaw
The disadvantage here is that someone with real world business experience can't be told that if they work 172 hours a week they'll get a big bonus because they'll know that you're full of it while a recent college grad will go for it. That's why the big software industry players like to get 'em fresh when they're ignorant and naive and create an environment, aka 'corporate campus', where they'll think they're still in college. Once they're burned out then they're ready for the regular corporate IT world or else they mutate into 'project managers'.
Not only that but some companies build their entire business model around it. That's how TRW got a contract at the base nearby.... the lowballed everyone else, then raided the graduating colleges classes when they got the contract. No clue as to how that turned out....I left the military at that time.
-tg
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Dont emblish too much about the level of your skills as most employeers will put you through a hands on coding test with a time limit. I used to give the applicants the Prime Number test and see how the approached the problem and coded it.
Like others stated, degrees wont be required for all jobs but they are usually for the higher paying jobs.
Take a part time entry level job just to get your foot in the door for computer related experience. Something like building computers or doing QA testing on them is a good starting point while you are in school. Having something in the field is better then nothing.
Remember that if you point them to a blog or site, they will be scrutinizing it so keep that in mind when posting content. Dont post "Oh I went partying last weekend and got wasted" or some personal non-work/industry related info. ;)
Study for and take a MS Certification test. Its one way to show you know what you know even without any experience. It also shows you are committed to the career and self improvement.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Thanks for the additional replies. I've run out of rep for the day so you'll have to wait. :bigyello:
As a follow-up to this that I didn't think required another thread, I'd love to hear some comments about being employed by a company versus being a self-employed programmer.
Any comments from either side are certainly welcome.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
I have done both. I like the stability of working for a company, especially the guarenteed paychecks, medical benefits and other benefits but I love working for myself and working at home. Its just a bit stressful if you have a slow couple of months etc. But hey, I guess I could have contacted a temp agency or job board listing to get other contract projects. :D
If you are the type of person that needs to be interacting with people everyday then self employment is not for you. Also, if you have family to think about then its a bit risky to be self employed. Although, with self employment you can charge whatever you want that you can get business with, that alone is the #1 reason I went self employed. I make more then what I was making at my previous job yet no traffic grind everyday, sleeping in if I want, run errands during the day, watch my kids when they get home from school, etc. I also have another part of my business that will hopefully be put in place within another month or two which will brng in more revenue on a regular basis with minor time to invest once its up and running. Together these two will bring the $ and stability I want. So unless I had a really well paying standard job, for me, its better working for myself.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
I started very young - developing for a company that went national and then international...
When the big-partners sold out they got big $$'s - us worker-bees got an offer to move or be fired.
That's when I realized that selling my proprietary rights was never going to happen again.
If you are going to work for someone else - do it for a lifetime. If you want to work for yourself - never look back.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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Originally Posted by szlamany
I started very young - developing for a company that went national and then international...
When the big-partners sold out they got big $$'s - us worker-bees got an offer to move or be fired.
That's when I realized that selling my proprietary rights was never going to happen again.
If you are going to work for someone else - do it for a lifetime. If you want to work for yourself - never look back.
Every so often you tell everybody your life stories - why not wrapping them up in some e-memoires and have a link in your signature so you can refer it as "Go to Chapter 3, paragraph 5"... ;)
Regards.:afrog:
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
A few points from a different perspective.
My piece of paper says that I am a hardware design engineer. I have nothing to say that I am a programmer at all except the experience that I have gained. A few have said that it does not matter if you have a relevant piece of paper but I have seen many occasions where the one with the PHd was quickly dismissed in favor of the one who had learned from the ground floor up. Of course this depends on the company and their culture, everything always does. Some will want people who can get the job done while others will want those who's resume's look good to investors on the prospectus.
It very much does depend on where you want to be in the industry. Codebreaker or Ornament.Your other thread shows you have the humility to know not to oversell yourself but if you do want to challenge yourself then you must also push yourself. If you explain to everybody that you are an entry level programmer then that is all anybody will ever regard you as. Be an entry level programmer++. Just take it one step at a time and don't go for broke the first day.
There is nothing like the sense of achievement felt at the end of your first contract after pulling all your hair out and bashing your head against a wall repeatedly than to sit down with a beer and know that you got there. Do that once and the hurdles just get easier as time goes on. Just remember that you have to sell yourself to the employer and a lack of confidence is worse than overconfidence. We all have to change our underwear eventually, Just some of us have to do it more often than others.
There are those out there that couldn't open a programming book let alone write code. They will quite happily mislead an employer to get that job and they are your competition. I would strongly recommend against outright lies as I have seen it attempted many times and I have never seen it succeed in a technical field. All the best and get in there. :)
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd
As a follow-up to this that I didn't think required another thread, I'd love to hear some comments about being employed by a company versus being a self-employed programmer.
Like Rob, I've done both.
The upside of working for someone else, at least in the US, is primarily benefits like group health insurance, paid vacation, employer contributed retirement plans, etc. The downside is that you're working for somebody else and you're subject to their whims regarding your pay, benefits, and continued employment. If they decide your 'secure' job is gone, it's gone and you're out on the street with nothing. Pay will also generally be lower although this is somewhat augmented by reduced taxes and benefits.
The upside of working for yourself is that your income isn't limited by someone else and you're not subject to their whims. The downside is that working for yourself requires considerable self-discipline and sales skills to keep enough money coming in. You also have to deal with issues like your own health insurance and taxes. Taxes for self-employment are higher and you have to either know, or hire someone who knows, how to keep your tax liability as low as possible. Good individual health insurance can be quite expensive and is hard for the self-employed to deduct. It helps if your spouse has a good paying job with benefits to provide a safety net. It's also important to develop multiple streams of income so that you aren't overly dependant on a single client (my mistake) or product.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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Originally Posted by bgmacaw
.... If they decide your 'secure' job is gone, it's gone and you're out on the street with nothing...
Not really "with nothing" unless you don't know how to manage what you already have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmadd
As a follow-up to this that I didn't think required another thread, I'd love to hear some comments about being employed by a company versus being a self-employed programmer.
If you want to become a self-employed you must have some capital that will let you "survive" for a fgew years in case you don't make much.
For at least one year you'd be lucky if you make any profit at all.
You'd also have to be very aggressive or competition is going to "eat you alive".
You most likely need to select an industry that you feel it's the type of business you like the most (or at least familiar most) - you can't jump from insurance to entertainment to manufacturing ... etc.
You're going to fight for you clients and work hard to just to get them.
You will often have no vacation unless you have an established business and very solid clients list.
If you feel like you can handle all of the above then don't waste your time - go ahead and regster your own company.
Otherwise don't even bother - you will waste your time/money/effort/etc/etc/etc...
Really wish you best of luck.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
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Originally Posted by RhinoBull
Not really "with nothing" unless you don't know how to manage what you already have.
Unfortunately, most people don't, they live from paycheck to paycheck and on borrowed credit card money.
I like to have about a 6 month buffer built up myself since programming is such a volatile profession even when you're working as so-called permanent employee.
But you're right, usually it's not with literally nothing unless you happened to work for Enron or a company like it that went belly up in a dramatic and disastrous fashion.
Re: The path to becoming a professional?
Thanks for all of the great responses. I certainly have much to consider. I certainly haven't resolved all of my questions yet, but consider this thread resolved. ;)
Thanks again.
