Printable View
Hi, a question that s been bothering me for a while. Is it true that we have to start as an application support or technical support agent before we can become a good programmer or is that a fairy tale?
I am new to this and I want to know the truth not what managers are trying to convince me.
Thank you for your advice
fairy tale
Moved.
can you pls clarify that to us a little bit.
Thank you
Well the full answer to your question would be that although application support or technical support experience might help you be a better programmer, you certainly don't need it to be a good programmer. To be a good programmer IMO you need (among other things)
- Good programming training
- Problem solving ability and a liking for problem solving
- Logical thinking
- Better than average intelligence
Also IMO programming is an art, and even given all the above qualifications some people are just not "artists".
I would add the following to Martin's list:
* Knowing when to look something up
* Knowing WHERE to look it up
Most of the best programers I know have bookcases that are about to collapse under the weight of reference books.
But even still, there's also one more thing I'd add and that's a sort of artistic flair. While it is called Computer Science, and the "rules" are fairly rigid (must have an End If with each If statement), there is a fair amount of an artistic approach to some of the solutions I've seen. Some of it simply comes from someone asking "well, why can't we do it this way?" or just simply seeing things in a new light. Some people call it thinking outside the box. I call it changing the box and turning it upside down.
-tg
I indeed agree and did say it myself quite of few times (not in exact words though).Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinLiss
You would aslo have to have lots of paitience and I cannot emphasize how much it is important.
If you are not a patient man then you may find yourself on the wrong path...
Technical skills are important, math - perhaps, but more importantly than anything - you've got love it - if you're after "better than average income" then this business might not be for you as well...
Good luck in your venture. :wave:
I think that where you program can have a big affect on that. I was lucky enough to find myself in the middle of Silicon Valley and there I was able to pull down a 6-figure (US dollars) income.Quote:
Originally Posted by RhinoBull
yeah ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinLiss
How much better? 138?
Average is 100 (From my psychology class),
My IQ is 127, and I think I'm pretty good at programming
To add a little more to that list: persistence is important also
And to enforce the previous: patience (the most important)
Tech support and programming are totally different so don't go down that route unless you intend to stay on it. Best thing to do is swallow your pride and accept any programming job available (and the wages will likely be dreadful). Once you have the experience you will move up very quickly :thumb:
Being somewhat organized is helpful, and documenting your code when you write it because that brilliant function you wrote last year will look like fourth year calculus when you need to change it if you didn't document it properly.
thanks a lot for your advice
i was at reason to believe programmers got paid good money? and it is the fastest growing area on the market..
You must know how to put yourself to the place of the user of your products to make it better.
money wise, i heard DBAs get better pay
That can often be the case, but it depends on which products/tools you know, and how well you know them.
From what I have seen, a 'trainee' role for either DBA or programmer will pay roughly the same.. but with more experience (to a point) DBA's can get more money than a programmer with the same experience would.
As I said tho, it depends on what products/tools you use.. I have recently seen programing jobs which pay a lot more than most DBA roles, just because there is a shortage of programmers with the specific skills.
My IQ has been tested several times and the average is about the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by CVMichael
but I'm pretty sure CVMichael has a scattered IQ as I do as well.
Scoring extremely high on some skills but quite low on others (grammar is a drag for me)
logical thinking, deduction and abstrahizing (Hope that's propper english) are things you need to be talented in. social skills...... well programmers are renound for their excellent social skills :D
Yep, you got it right... I did well in logical thinking, and visual (patterns), math average, but I did really bad at english related questions...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dnereb
What's deduction and abstrahizing ?
This one of the best posting I have read since being here. To add my two cents, code is analyzed with language, while language is analyzed with language. Code has a thousand words, a language? 400,000. Are you right of left brain? I started on a tty-33 / 110 baud. This was the coolest thing ever. So, Tutus, do you like working with people, or not ?
Deduction is arriving to a solution based purely on removing all the impossible choicesQuote:
Originally Posted by CVMichael
Induction is the opposite of this.
Abstraction is the ability to think of things in your head that do not physically exist. for example if you can abstract numbers you do not need to put 2 stones on one pile and 2 stones on another. Then put all the stones in one pile and count them to add 2 + 2.
I managed to fail my english GCSE but I picked it back up in college
Code has structure and is consistant, unlike the english language. :mad:
So poor english skills is a programmer thing eh? :duck:
work for yourself .. if you work for someone else you will always depend on them.
This :wave:
"Code has structure and is consistant, unlike the English language"
Singularis, language is a programing language. One is trying to program a human and we love images, so the coding rules are vast and complex. Yes, English has some strange rules: I read the red book, I wound the wound with tape. It was created from many languages. Recently I read, take all the 'tion' words and change it to, 'zione'. The word is now Italian. Why not, the Romans ruled England from about 50 to 500AD.
I see your point, but tend to disagree.. a programming language has very strict rules (if you make mistakes then the program wont work) and predictable results; If you mis-say a sentence, the chances are that it will still be understood (so will effectively work), and more importantly the person who is listening will interpret it in the way they think it should be - which is not necessarily the way you meant it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sessi4ml
Also languages tend to evolve over time.. with spoken languages this happens gradually without any order or timeframe (or formal notification to the 'users') and varies geographically, yet with programming languages the changes are occur at fixed times and the users are (usually!) notified when they upgrade to the latest version; location doesn't matter, but I suppose differences do occur based on which compiler you use (for languages where there is a choice).
From Martin's list, I disagree with this item:
- Good programming training
I have never received formal training in programming. A couple of basic classes in school, perhaps, but nothing that contributed towards my programming knowledge.
I believe the other items are far more important: logical thinking, an affinity for problem solving, and a readyness to apply these. Knowledge can come in many ways, natural ability cannot. If you are simply not a logical thinker, then don't program. Draw graphics or something useful instead that many logical thinkers find so hard to do.
I also believe an ability to communicate is the most important skill after actual programming ability. Far too many programmers can easily think through a problem and come up with a perfectly good solution; but lack the ability to convey that, or to talk with their clients in order to properly meet their needs. These are the coders out in the workforce - not the majority of people you see on this forum.
A bit too specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by singularis
Deduction is arriving at a conclusion by logical reasoning, when given some facts to work with. Think Sherlock.
Induction is wishy-washy philosophical 'logic'.
Abstract thinking is, yes. Abstraction is the process of extracting the underlying abstract concept from a real-world application of it. Abstract programming is very important when re-usable code is required.Quote:
Originally Posted by singularis
English has formal structure also. The difference is that humans are not compilers; when presented with syntactically incorrect English, we make educated guesses about the actual meaning of the message, rather than spitting out "Compile Error" and ignoring it.*Quote:
Originally Posted by singularis
*Well, most people do; some take great delight in pointing out spelling and grammatical errors. Like me.
Tutus, this might be helpful
http://www.vbforums.com/showthread.p...light=as%2F400